Stargazers lounge or Photographer’s Lounge

[westmarch]

I thought long and hard before penning this.  As an observer, I feel like a typist in the age of computers.

Increasingly the forum topics and perhaps the hobby is becoming dominated by astrophotography.  I have tried to think why that might be:

1.  Light pollution makes long exposure the only way that you can see anything without packing up and heading off to the wilds.

2. UK or any temperate weather means long hours processing images is a more consistent and rewarding pastime than freezing your butt off waiting for an occasional break in the clouds.

3.  Hubble and NASA images mean newcomers are disillusioned with the faint monochrome smudges they see through most scopes .

4. Goto scopes mean that this disillusion is immediate (perhaps compounded by the complexities of the electronics) without the need to first find your way and track down your goal.  It is probably compounded by the cost of the goto kit.

5.  Retailers are happy to help you here,  by pushing you towards the Hubble AP goal you had anticipated.   The associated lucrative add ons you will need are an unfortunate but necessary burden. ( I accept that observers EPs can be tarred with the same brush!)

6.  In our social media society, hobbies need images to share and rate.

7. AP is, perhaps justifiably,  being seen as the elite of astronomy and perhaps photography and has a wider appeal.

8. In any hobby there is a social prestige in having the most expensive kit - invariably this is now trending towards AP hardware and software.

Can I say here that I am part of the problem.  I could share my observations more and generate more posts and enthusiasm for observing. This is in no way a dig at AP members.  I am as amazed as anyone at the skill, technique, deep pockets and artistry in the images posted.  These are talents (and pockets) I do not possess and I have nothing but respect for the members who can create such images.

I’m just not sure it is the same hobby.

John 

 

[Mr niall]

I think It’s more a product of the materialistic goal orientated world in which we live. It’s much more difficult to justify the expense of non AP equipment to fiends / family / yourself as you don’t get the “product” at the end that you do with AP.

But you can’t criticise people for choosing it. and ultimately it’s a sign of the times. Personally I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive and, like you say, they’re so divergent that it’s  not like their in competition with each other, you can enjoy both. It’s  just easier to discuss and share electronic media on an electronic platform like this.

[Gina]

I had an interest in photography before astronomy so AP was the obvious route.  I've done a bit of observing but due to astigmatism I need glasses to observe and this is awkward.  Two reasons why I do AP.

[RayD]

Agree, to a degree. Many people produce superb images with inexpensive kit when compared to some very very expensive doublets produced a number of years ago and pretty much designed for visual use. AP can be expensive, but it doesn't have to be. 

I actually image because I have very bad floaters which make visual very difficult, particularly at higher magnifications. I also work and am able to set up an imaging run to complete whilst I sleep. 

Finally I really enjoy sharing my images with family and friends which I accept visual astronomer can do by describing his views, but it isn't the same. 

[Stu]

Some very valid points there John. One of the things that does really wind me up is the assumption that AP is the natural progression from observing, and that if you don't do it you are somehow inferior or lacking in some way. Note that I'm not implying this is your view, nor am I saying that this is a commonly held view amongst the imagers on the forum although you often read posts saying 'when you are ready to progress onto imaging' or similar.

For me, both are equally valid branches of the same hobby, and to be an accomplished planetary or deep sky observer is just as much being at the 'top' of the hobby as being a skilled Astrophotographer. It can take years of practise to hone your observing skills to their maximum. I am purely visual, and enjoy being away from the IT requirements of imaging, I spend my working life with a laptop so find observing without one much more relaxing.

I agree that it is much easier to post about an image you have taken than an observing report. I often post images of the kit I used or the location just to add some interest, others do sketches ranging from the basic to the truly amazing. I do take bad smartphone images of the moon or Jupiter too for the same reason. I would encourage you to post your reports, as inevitably they will generate feedback from others, either encouragement or questions.

Being an observer can be a totally satisfying way forward.

[JohnSadlerAstro]

Hi,

I have my feet slightly in both camps, but I understand your point entirely, I have noticed (not on SGL) that some elements of the AP community are far more "snarky and hypercritical" of others than the visual folks who almost universally have a far more relaxed approach to the hobby. I like to do a little bit of both AP and visual much of the time, but for me AP really calls because of the technology/engineering side of it. Also, a photograph is something you can always look at, and with my South Western cloudy skies clear nights are rather rare for frequent visual revisits! As a student, I find the expensive kit aspect is one of the issues with AP, and definitely not a reason to do the hobby, but perhaps the claim that AP is always more expensive is a bit too generalised, remember that it can be done with setups costing less than a standard visual setup.  

For me progress is not buying bigger and better kit (although I firmly believe in using kit to its full capacity, reaching its limits and then upgrading if possible and if the journey has been enjoyable), but enjoying my AP or visual sessions and discovering new ways to gain skill in the field is my main goal.

Sadly many people buy expensive kit from the get go and never have the experience of humble beginnings gradually becoming more advanced and exciting. Several AP-ers have told me they find the hobby stressful, something I simply cant understand as a hobby is meant to be anything but that. ? 

Perhaps the increase in AP is due to the technology used in it becoming more widely available and less expensive? 

John

[steppenwolf]

21 minutes ago, westmarch said:

I’m just not sure it is the same hobby.

I am rather saddened by this conclusion as I believe it to be far from the truth. Of course it is the same hobby - just a different way of 'observing'. 

The cost argument is also a little flawed - have you seen the prices of top of the range telescopes and eyepieces for observers who insist on the best? Ironically, although I have slowly amassed a reasonably top of the range imaging system, the most pleasurable imaging I have ever done was with my original equipment - a non-GoTo equatorial mount, a doublet 80mm ED refractor and a one shot colour camera.

Some of the best posts on SGL are the observing reports, they really fire me up and rekindle my desire to look up either with an eyepiece or a camera. I like to spice up my imaging posts with some background information about the object I have captured with my camera but I doubt my descriptions come close to matching a good observing report!

It's the same hobby with two different methods of enjoying the wonders of the night sky and I don't see any social prestige in having expensive equipment or any social inadequacy in having lower cost equipment.  ?

[scarp15]

Objectively I enjoy looking at some accomplished posted images representing wide field photography, deep sky, lunar etc and equally at a thoughtful scrutinised executed observers sketch. They can inform and enhance a visual observers own perspective on varied subjects. However they are two branches and whilst some people who practice amateur astronomy, favour crossing over and interact between the two disciplines, they are fundamentally different in both attitude and expectation. I like the simplicity of visual astronomy, the potential to become fully dark adapted and to learn to clearly navigate and read your way between constellations. Reports are often engaging, conjuring up a sense of place, time, circumstance, accounting for failures and successes, information that can be shared, inspire and built upon by the readers. The reality of increased year on year light pollution can still provide stimulation from home, but may require stepping out of your comfort zone a little to get out on a dark sky venture from time to time. Both strands whilst providing a range of ways to budget can inevitably became quite an expensive pursuit and finally, having heard this mentioned to, I quite agree that one approach (from somebody new to this) does not necessarily lead to another and each are quite equal in value to ourselves as individuals.     

[Spikey]

Some of us observe and image and I'm not very good at either of them ?

[Stu]

57 minutes ago, steppenwolf said:

Some of the best posts on SGL are the observing reports, they really fire me up and rekindle my desire to look up either with an eyepiece or a camera. I like to spice up my imaging posts with some background information about the object I have captured with my camera but I doubt my descriptions come close to matching a good observing report!

That's great to hear Steve!

As a visual observer, one of the things I enjoy is being 'out there' under the stars. I know many imagers do still enjoy the skies with binoculars or a dob whilst the imaging rig does its stuff, but I confess I struggle to see the attraction when the connection is broken completely ie sitting in front of the TV in the lounge controlling a rig remotely with little interest in the target itself. That to me becomes just a data capture and processing exercise and the wonders of 'looking up' are seemingly lost. I am not in any way saying this is not a valid way of engaging with the hobby, it is just not something which appeals to me.

[adyj1]

Interesting post, John. You've come up with a mixed bag of reasons, some of which I'm sure apply to most APers, and some which are aimed at only the elite/exceptional cases. 

For me, I love star hopping, but my eyesight lets me down. I can work out exactly where an object should be, bit can't see anything (unless it's the moon - I can definitely see the moon ? ) .

With AP I love sharing images with friends and family and getting a real 'wow' response. Both sides of the hobby can be eye-wateringly expensive. 

I wonder whether the fact that AP is now easier to get in to on a budget means that there are a greater proportion of APers than in days gone by? 

I see visual and AP as equals in this hobby, and both should be respected. I met some new 'visual observer' friends at my first proper SGL this year while we waited in hope of the skies clearing. 

Ramble over...

Ady

[Floater]

1 hour ago, JohnSadlerAstro said:

Several AP-ers have told me they find the hobby stressful, something I simply cant understand as a hobby is meant to be anything but that. ? 

Absolutely, John. This is the nub of it for me: have fun with the hobby. What else is the purpose? If it’s not fun then there must be some other drive.

I’m strictly visual only. Never could take even a decent holiday ‘snap’! My jaw drops when I see some of the SGL imagers’ results but I have no wish to produce something similar myself. 

I subscribe to the view that AP is a different discipline. Some will be solely visual; some solely AP, and some blessed(?) individuals will mix ‘em up.

Just as long as you enjoy ... ?

[John]

I really enjoy looking a the output that the imagers produce but in my 35+ years in the hobby I've never been tempted towards imaging myself beyond a few crude web cam images of the moon.

My way of enjoying the hobby is visual observation with as little technology involved as possible. I try and post reports here now and then to share what I've managed to see and hopefully to encourage others to have a look. But thats just my way - many other approaches are possible and all have merit.

Through SGL and more recently though my astro society I've realised that there are a very wide range of ways that people enjoy the interest of astronomy and I'm just happy to be part of it. I don't think any particular approach is more or less superior to any other - the variety of ways to get involved is one of the great strengths of the subject and I'm very happy to pass the time with anyone who is interested in any way at all in astronomy.

Whether you image, observe, use scopes, binoculars, just your eyes, just like to read about astronomy or attend talks on it, watch documentaries about it, talk about it, teach others about it, spend lots of money or as little as possible, or even make a living from it, we are all in the same "camp" I reckon and have many shared interests at heart

 

 

 

[Merlin66]

I did many years of visual super nova searching and assisted in making reference charts.....

I also was very active in the early  - cold camera etc. days of AP for some ten years....

Then it came to me, how many times can you image M42 before it becomes a little boring.......

I then fell into spectroscopy and never looked back. The challenge and rigor required was good for me and reinvigorated me. I realize it’s not for everyone but I’m continually amazed with the ProAm quality of the results being obtained by many amateurs around the world.

Astronomy is for everyone.

 

[Moonshane]

5 hours ago, Merlin66 said:

 

Astronomy is for everyone.

 

Totally agree. I image but with a pencil.

 

I have around £5k of mostly used equipment so visual is not necessarily a cheaper option.

 

[barkis]

10 hours ago, Spikey said:

Some of us observe and image and I'm not very good at either of them ?

Frankness and honesty are good pals here. 

[iPeace]

12 hours ago, westmarch said:

I’m just not sure it is the same hobby.

To some extent, it can certainly seem not to be. All these writings about darks, flats, guiding, tracking, stacking, getting usb hubs and software to work, worries about the condition and operation of equipment at work while the owner sleeps and trying to make every last little lazy photon count are indicative of an entirely different type of challenge and perhaps even a different concept of fun.

But surely the subject matter is the thing that holds our common interest. If all that imaging kit was used to film the nocturnal behaviour of kangaroos, that would be another matter.

12 hours ago, westmarch said:

Can I say here that I am part of the problem.  I could share my observations more and generate more posts and enthusiasm for observing.

This is quite a challenge in itself. Trying to convey in writing how great it was to see M13 - yet again - can seem...well, it can make you wonder whether it's worthwhile. But here is the most appreciative audience you'll find anywhere.

Whatever you point at the heavens to observe (in the broadest sense of the word) with (using a toilet roll tube might set you apart a bit), here you'll probably find the one other nutter who does the same - and certainly plenty of others who understand, approve and applaud.

[scarp15]

21 minutes ago, iPeace said:

Whatever you point at the heavens to observe (in the broadest sense of the word) with (using a toilet roll tube might set you apart a bit), here you'll probably find the one other nutter who does the same - and certainly plenty of others who understand, approve and applaud.

This is quite true, if when with a group of friends at the pub, I might happen to mention, maybe with a wryly smile, that if anyone fancies meeting up after dark tomorrow night in that remote carpark, the response is met with quite some laughter. Astronomy talk becomes an open and closed case, debating the finer points is left up to the connoisseurs on here. 

[westmarch]

Can I thank everyone for their thoughtful responses to my post and sorry if it came across as the ramblings of a curmudgeon.  On reflection, (no pun intended), iPeace probably summed it up:

1 hour ago, iPeace said:

All these writings about darks, flats, guiding, tracking, stacking, getting usb hubs and software to work,

are as meaningful to me as a knitting pattern. I’m not knocking knitting, wooly hats are a god send but I doubt I will ever need to know how to knit one.

It brings to mind the quotation, "The United States and Great Britain are two countries separated by a common language”, perhaps AP and observing are  reaching the same point.

John

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I think there are multiple sides to this great hobby. When I started out in SGL, I mainly contributed observing reports, mainly on DSOs, along with the odd planetary and lunar images. I later added solar imaging, and started doing planetary and lunar imaging more seriously, finally, I have begun to dabble in the totally darker art of DSO imaging. What struck me immediately is that DSO imaging is far more stressful than observing (which is the most relaxing) or planetary/lunar imaging. There are a couple of reasons for this: First of all, when observing, you can take in a huge number of objects, if you like, or just linger on one or two, just as the mood takes you. There is also far less that can go wrong, as no computers or indeed electronics need be involved. If the battery of my tracking mount dies, I just track manually, end of problem. Planetary, lunar and solar imaging are not that stressful as they are comparatively quick. Even for my big lunar and solar mosaics, I can grab the data in 20 minutes tops. You also do not have to worry about exact polar alignment and guiding as much as in DSO imaging, as individual exposures are short. This quick capture and quick set-up means that even if the capture wasn't great due to e.g. poor seeing, you still get to observe if you want to. Another factor is that I have now refined my capture and processing techniques so don't worry as much.

DSO imaging is a whole different ball game, and feels much more stressful to me. Rather than taking in dozens of objects, you have to focus on one or two each session. Polar aligning, getting camera, filter wheel, guide camera, computer, mount all working together is much more tedious in this case, as I do not have the luxury of a fixed set-up. Once it is up and running, it takes a lot of getting used to that you can go inside and let the system do its thing. I am planning to set up the C8 alongside the imaging rig and do some observing on the side, but I am not sure that will be the best of both worlds rather than double trouble.

The main thing is for each of us to find out which side of the hobby appeals most, and even that may vary from day to day. I have had a few good nights here lately, but was too tired to set up the bigger rigs, so just went outside and watched stuff through binoculars. A great way to relax.

What I do notice is that posts featuring images tend to get more likes than observing reports. So be it. It doesn't mean the observing reports aren't appreciated, they just look less flashy.

[GavStar]

I’m visual only and until recently didn’t take that much interest in the (fantastic) images people take on this site - mainly because they look nothing like what I can see through the eyepiece. 

One imager recently said in a post that the whole point of imaging is to see stuff that you cannot see by eye!

More recently (thanks to Stu and others) I’ve started taking phone photos of the eyepiece views I get as a means to record accurately my observing sessions. I don’t do any post processing of these and I really like the ability to do a few quick shots without really impacting on my observing. I’m a member of the smart phone astronomy group on Facebook and some of the lunar and planetary images on there are amazing but they use stacking and flats and other things I don’t understand! 

Taking smart phone images has resulted in me looking at the astro photography here, and I really enjoy looking at them - can’t see me ever doing it though.

[Gina]

My main interest has been DSO imaging  but TBH I think all the problems of getting everything working together are what's finally putting me off imaging.  Plus the image processing.  It really is a lot of work/bother and I think I'm getting to the stage when I'm beginning to wonder whether it's worth it.  Too few nights of the right conditions and all that money tied up in rarely used kit is making me think.  Also, the imaging conditions are getting worse.  Noticeably worse light pollution for instance.  I just recently started considering solar Ha imaging and maybe observing.  This is something totally new to me and may be the way I might continue astronomy.  I still feel I have some interest in DSO imaging but the fact that I haven't actually done any for some time, indicates that I don't really want to.  I think it's sad but I'm not as young as I was...

[Owmuchonomy]

I have wandered around this 'hobby' for 12 years now.  Using a mix of new and used kit (and recycling a lot of it) I find the most enjoyment in sharing my experience and knowledge with others.  That could be in visual or by way of a few images. By far the biggest and best investment I made was in a decent obsy that fits at least 4 bodies.   Life is too short for me to stick at DSO imaging and of course the hours and hours of processing time and watching of tutorials.  So I do a bit of solar Ha/WL and Lunar imaging now.  I will keep my long FL kit for the next few years as the planets return to better positions. Budget level Spectroscopy is enjoyable too because it keeps my brain awake but predominantly I do visual in the company of others.  Having had two cancer scares that's where I feel most comfortable now.  I have just become active in the North Yorkshire 'Starmakers' initiative and hope to enjoy that through the winter and into next year's two week festival.

[michaelmorris]

21 hours ago, JohnSadlerAstro said:

I have noticed (not on SGL) that some elements of the AP community are far more "snarky and hypercritical" of others than the visual folks who almost universally have a far more relaxed approach to the hobby? 

Hi John

Being an ex-mod myself, I can tell you that the no-nonsense attitude of the moderating team is a key reason everything comes out being civilised on SGL.  I'm not sure I agree with your perception that the AP community are far more "snarky and hypercritical" of others than the visual folks.  I think the issue might be more that those members of the visual observing community who are most critical of AP or of other visual observers are less likely to be member's of internet forums. 

My personal experience has been that the vast majority of the amateur astronomers I have met, be they visual and/or imagers, is that they are intelligent, friendly, generous and interesting people.  You are always going to get the odd individual who is somewhat intolerant of others.

 

[Gina]

+1 for the moderating team here ?