Stargazers lounge or Photographer’s Lounge

[Paul M]

I've had some similar thoughts to the OP on occasions.

It's a broad church this astronomy lark. My own interest is in the science of astronomy and observation is really just to see it with my own eyes.

Imaging plays a huge part in the science. Perhaps the most important aspect of astronomy? 

I neither have the patience nor the commitment to image for myself but I truly admire the efforts of those that do. 

So I look at the brilliant images posted here and admire them. Both the subject and the effort that went into producing it. I don't follow the nitty gritty of imaging. I'll read the description and image basics but move onto the next thread without reading the technicalities.

Suits me. If imaging is the lifeblood of the forum then so be it. I'm not active enough to offer observing reports to counter any imbalance. That's why you'll usually find me in the lounge talking drivel!

[David Levi]

If someone had asked me then I would have said that perhaps AP was more popular on this forum than visual observing. However, I can't say that I have paid any attention to the perceived imbalance at all. I'm a purely manual visual observer. Astrophotography looks great but I like the simplicity of visual observing..

You make a reasonable argument @westmarch but I don't find that AP takes anything away from following the forum for visual topics only. There's plenty of activity in the visual section with many experienced knowledgeable observers posting great stuff. I'm always learning from the posts and enjoy reading them. If I have exhausted the visual sections of the forum, which is quite rare, then I pop into the AP area and I am wowed by the fantastic images. There's room for everyone.

If there's one point that you make that I can't really argue against then that is the matter of light pollution. I travel quite often to dark sky sites one hour to one and a half hours away.

[Alien 13]

I used to enjoy observing but cant get the "right" scope these days, I want a corrected image and very low magnification with premium optics like my old military tank sight had.

I then moved to widefield imaging to get a similar effect and do enjoy the hassle free setup and the ability to capture transient objects like meteors, I am also fond of Lunar imaging which again is fuss free with my little Mak and DSLR.

Alan 

[Gina]

My thoughts were that there were about the same number of observers here as imagers.

[tooth_dr]

I dont write observing reports, because I feel that I lack the quality of language to make them enjoyable for other to read.  I've done a few jumps around the garden/fist pumps when I've found things in binos or with the scope.  This is a great feeling.

I get that same buzz when I see my subs pop up on my screen, knowing that the guiding, aligment, etc has worked.

BUT I can easily let my subs sit unprocessed for days because I dont find the processing enjoyable.  I spent a few hours last night at it, and it felt like a wasted night!

I've always though that the forum was very even in terms of observing and imaging.

I really enjoy reading observers discussions on stuff, it simply amazes me the technicalities involved and the sheer volume of knowledge of observers.

But I'm an imager at heart, and would defend it to the nth ?

 

 

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

In general, it is of course much easier to criticise images than it is to criticise and observation report, because you can point at specific artefacts, such as noise or dust bunnies. However, usually the criticism is clearly aimed at improving the image (and usually the posters are only too aware of the shortcomings and welcome advice). In the case of an observing report, it is a lot more difficult. You might have cases where you find it hard to believe a particular object was actually seen with the equipment listed, but it is hard to be certain. I might be a very experienced observer with some very faint fuzzies bagged, but there are bound to be people out there who are better than I am (and live under better skies).

BTW, my experiences with imagers outside SGL have by and large been fine as well. There are many supportive groups out there. Most people are just keen to learn, and most critics aim to teach, not to belittle.

[ollypenrice]

It's all astronomy, for me.

Funnily enough I started my 'astro gite' as an entirely visual observer but I quickly discovered that 90% of the interest was coming from imagers bringing their own gear. I realized that, if I was going to survive, I'd have to offer imaging - which meant learning it myself. I'll be honest, I wasn't terribly keen and was truly useless with computers and all things IT. In a sense I began imaging reluctantly and under some duress.

That changed instantly and forever one unforgettable moment when the first 5 minute sub of M42 came in. It was incredible. Our guest and I looked at each other open mouthed and spellbound. That was it: I was an imager.

I think I also like imaging because it gives me something to work on - ie getting better at it, a process which never ends.

Conspicuous consumption? Hand on heart, this doesn't motivate me and I'm remarkably indifferent to 'kit for its own sake.' I like it only for what it does. My Tak 106 (very second hand) has a 'garden shed' microfocuser and strips of bicycle inner tube correcting oversized tube rings. I've never changed them because I worship at the shrine of, 'If it ain't broke...' As for the cost of it all, I think I dither between terror and embarrassment. 

Imaging, visual? Thank goodness we don't have to choose between them!

Imagers narky? I spend my life with an ever-changing succession of them and I can promise you that they are quite the opposite. They're fun, generous, interesting, supportive, creative people. 

Olly

[DaveS]

Although I started out visual, I've gone down the imaging route as it can show me aspects of DSOs that I couldn't possibly see otherwise.

Also I am completely lacking in the drawing skills to make a (Semi?) permanent record of what I had see.

[Peter Drew]

I agree with almost everything that's been said on this topic. My perception is that imaging is 90% problems and 10% results, I just don't have time for that ratio. Outreach is what keeps my astronomical fire burning, it keeps me close to those wonderful first steps in astronomy by exposing first time youngsters and adults to the subject.   ?

[michaelmorris]

Just done a quick bit of rather crude maths.

cameras forum + all the imaging section = approx. 508,000 posts. 

eyepieces forum + all the observing section = approx. 256,000 posts. 

So posts about imaging seem to roughly double those purely about visual observing.  Also remember that imaging produces far more problems, so is bound to attract more posts.

[ollypenrice]

20 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

I agree with almost everything that's been said on this topic. My perception is that imaging is 90% problems and 10% results, I just don't have time for that ratio. Outreach is what keeps my astronomical fire burning, it keeps me close to those wonderful first steps in astronomy by exposing first time youngsters and adults to the subject.   ?

That, I understand completely. I would love to do more outreach but I have a need to make a living so my outreach is targeted to those already involved. One day, maybe...

With permanent setups I find that we are 95% results and 5% problems but that didn't happen straight away! Oh no...

Olly

[Helen]

I do both, or if you add in Peter's outreach element, all three!  It is great to be able to enjoy whatever you fancy on any particular day/night and given the circumstances.  There are times when I'm up for an imaging challenge, and other times where I want to peacefully wander the heavens.  Times when I want to do science, and times when I love to get Wows from other people.  As an example:

When we went to eclipse last year I took a lot of mostly imaging gear so I had options - well my family and friends were looking forward to my pictures.... But the one thing I really wanted to do  was actually see totality through a scope.  When we started setting up it became clear we were with a group of people who were first time eclipsers and they only knew what they'd read.  So, very quickly I switched from being a potential imager to being a tour guide!  I let one camera snap a bit, but when tracking started to slip I decided not to waste time sorting it.  But I showed people things with visual set up, and talked through things, and just enjoyed the whole atmosphere and experience.  I saw totality through my scope and the pink prominances are etched on my brain - and I showed other people that too (hopefully with similar results).  Do I wish I had just one great shot of totality, of course I do.  Would I change what I did? No. 

The Universe is awesome - how we connect with it is far less important than that we do!

Helen

[Stub Mandrel]

I find observing very difficult, even faced with a spectacular sight I can only spend a couple of minute maximum looking at it.

My observing reports are pretty noddy, my latest was me revelling in the fact that I could actually see differences between different eyepieces! (None of this 'field curvature', central  65% or exit pupil nonsense though ? )

I also enjoy the technical challenges of imaging and the fact that it is something you can get better at without necessarily changing your equipment. In fact I'm currently re-stacking some data from April 2017 as I'm sure I can get a much better result out of it.

If the mods are listening I AM STILL WAITING for some skeching-based imaging challenges. I can think of no better goad to get some of us to have a go. There should be two or three a year, at least!

 

<edit> I could add that it's my impression that observing is often much more expensive than imaging. Quality eps cost three times as much as my second hand DSLRs and yo9u can get a top notch imaging scope for a fraction of the price of a top notch visual scope.

[Helen]

4 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

If the mods are listening I AM STILL WAITING for some skeching-based imaging challenges. I can think of no better goad to get some of us to have a go. There should be two or three a year, at least!

The 'through the eyepiece' current challenge includes sketches ?

But we've talked about observing challenges too.  I think some more thought is needed about the what, how and who. But if there is an apetite for them, and experinced observers willing to help in preparing the challenges I'm sure we can get something going.  I for one would love something to focus on (pun intended ?) and be able to share the experience.

Helen

[ollypenrice]

I don't think there is necessarily a symmetry or equivalence between the two activities and so we shouldn't be worried if the forum's hosting of each is different. Observing is, by its nature, a more private and contemplative activity whereas imaging produces pictures which can easily be shared on a screen. As things stand there are lots of attractively written observing reports and sketches - which seems fine to me.

As a teacher I suffered the imposition of the National Curriculum, a project entirely incapable of grasping that different subjects are best delivered in different formats, assessed by different means (if assessed at all) and living different lives. The tidy minded bureaucrats wanted every subject squeezed into a standard issue strait jacket from content, through method to assessment. Why? Is a horse an apple?

Often I observe an object we're imaging and I want to compare the experience. When I do so I generally mention it in the imaging section because I feel, rightly or wrongly, that the observers would prefer not to have images in the observing thread.  This is an example of the tyrrany of formats!  *

Olly

* Format's last theorem...

[Stub Mandrel]

On our model engineering forum people sometimes complain about 'unwanted' discussion of irrelevant topics such as motorbikes and <gasp> astronomy; mostly ignorant of how much cross-over there is between the areas of interest.

Of course the irony for those wanting to return top a purer 'Golden Age' is that looking back at magazines from 50 to 120 years ago it's clear that both of these topics (and more) are long established parts of the hobby .

In the same way imaging and observing aren't mutually exclusive and have connections that run out into other areas like landscape photography and shed building. 

[domstar]

On 23/10/2018 at 12:47, westmarch said:

On 23/10/2018 at 10:44, iPeace said:

All these writings about darks, flats, guiding, tracking, stacking, getting usb hubs and software to work,

are as meaningful to me as a knitting pattern.

I know what you mean. I once saw a thread with the title 'Question about dithering', and I thought 'Yes, at last a subject that I have extensive knowledge of', only to find out that is was something about AP.

[johnfosteruk]

It’s all been said but for me it’s all about understanding the universe and however you do that is fine by me. As for AP people being hypercritical, the only criticism I’ve ever had on my limited imaging output here has been nothing but valuable. Also, if there was any elitism amongst AP people I most certainly would have been on the receiving end with my limited budget, and I have not. 

I love to browse through the imaging boards and the observing reports, they’re two different paths towards the greater understanding that I want.

 

[billyharris72]

21 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

With permanent setups I find that we are 95% results and 5% problems but that didn't happen straight away! Oh no...

For me it's maybe 80% problems, but isn't that the point of the exercise (at least part of it)? For me astronomy (visual or imaging) is about pushing myself and learning new things. If I could point my rig at the sky and effortlessly take an image that was about 1/100 as good as a Hubble job - I'd sell my gear and download the Hubble images. If it's routine it'll get boring. But the wonders of periodic error, cable drag, amp glow, internal reflections etc etc contrive to keep life more than interesting....

[ollypenrice]

15 minutes ago, billyharris72 said:

For me it's maybe 80% problems, but isn't that the point of the exercise (at least part of it)? For me astronomy (visual or imaging) is about pushing myself and learning new things. If I could point my rig at the sky and effortlessly take an image that was about 1/100 as good as a Hubble job - I'd sell my gear and download the Hubble images. If it's routine it'll get boring. But the wonders of periodic error, cable drag, amp glow, internal reflections etc etc contrive to keep life more than interesting....

Well, I prefer the challenges of doing something new with gear which just works. Breakdowns are a bore for me because they get in the way of an exciting project - but if you like them you're a lucky man and you're in the right game!  

Olly

[Stub Mandrel]

OllyZ: "I got 99 problems but a glitch ain't one"

[scarp15]

7 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

On our model engineering forum people sometimes complain about 'unwanted' discussion of irrelevant topics such as motorbikes and <gasp> astronomy; mostly ignorant of how much cross-over there is between the areas of interest.

Of course the irony for those wanting to return top a purer 'Golden Age' is that looking back at magazines from 50 to 120 years ago it's clear that both of these topics (and more) are long established parts of the hobby .

In the same way imaging and observing aren't mutually exclusive and have connections that run out into other areas like landscape photography and shed building. 

I think that there is definitely connections associated with other personal interests, which could be formed from an awareness or not. My own interest regarding visual astronomy, particularly practiced away from home, forms a cross over with my interest for hill walking, cycling, perhaps even years ago when I used to go fishing. I am aiming to gain a view, accomplish certain goals and (catch) find new deep sky objects, in a similar environment where I might be pre-occupied with other pursuits. Therefore I can understand that someone who would be more intently interested, such as in landscape photography would find astro-imaging or wide field night scape photography more appealing.   

[billyharris72]

58 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Well, I prefer the challenges of doing something new with gear which just works. Breakdowns are a bore for me because they get in the way of an exciting project - but if you like them you're a lucky man and you're in the right game!

Having had the pleasure of using your setup I'm more than happy to admit I'd trade my problems challenges in a jiffy, but you've got to get your kicks where you can find them I do enjoy tinkering with kit, even if the results do sometimes make me want to tear my hair out - but it's nicer when it actually works.

On the OP, I very much enjoy both the visual and AP side, and they compliment one another nicely (once the gear is doing its job I'm in visual mode for most of the night). I find taking and processing images gives me insight into and enjoyment of what's up there in a way that complements visual observing (or reading a good book on the subject, which adds a whole other dimension). For many (most?) of us I suspect the real driver is fascination with the subject matter; anything that gets us closer to what's up there has to be a good thing.

Billy.

 

[Scott]

On 22/10/2018 at 20:30, westmarch said:

I thought long and hard before penning this.  As an observer, I feel like a typist in the age of computers.

Increasingly the forum topics and perhaps the hobby is becoming dominated by astrophotography.  I have tried to think why that might be:

1.  Light pollution makes long exposure the only way that you can see anything without packing up and heading off to the wilds.

2. UK or any temperate weather means long hours processing images is a more consistent and rewarding pastime than freezing your butt off waiting for an occasional break in the clouds.

3.  Hubble and NASA images mean newcomers are disillusioned with the faint monochrome smudges they see through most scopes .

4. Goto scopes mean that this disillusion is immediate (perhaps compounded by the complexities of the electronics) without the need to first find your way and track down your goal.  It is probably compounded by the cost of the goto kit.

5.  Retailers are happy to help you here,  by pushing you towards the Hubble AP goal you had anticipated.   The associated lucrative add ons you will need are an unfortunate but necessary burden. ( I accept that observers EPs can be tarred with the same brush!)

6.  In our social media society, hobbies need images to share and rate.

7. AP is, perhaps justifiably,  being seen as the elite of astronomy and perhaps photography and has a wider appeal.

8. In any hobby there is a social prestige in having the most expensive kit - invariably this is now trending towards AP hardware and software.

Can I say here that I am part of the problem.  I could share my observations more and generate more posts and enthusiasm for observing. This is in no way a dig at AP members.  I am as amazed as anyone at the skill, technique, deep pockets and artistry in the images posted.  These are talents (and pockets) I do not possess and I have nothing but respect for the members who can create such images.

I’m just not sure it is the same hobby.

John 

 

4

No way. I'm an astrophotographer and the way I see it, I tells computer program to find something and it does it (every now and then). Visual guys are, in my eyes, the elite. They do so much preparation for a session, they know the sky far better than I do and more often than not, rise to what can be a very difficult challenge. I do think there is something to be said for the instant gratification newer members get when looking on pics here at sgl. You can't show your friends/followers your observing report. Well you could but don't expect any oohs and ahhs

[ronl]

It's all down to one thing, whether it's AP or observing, or both, it's all about enjoyment, that's 

what you get out of it, I enjoy observing, but I always browse through the imaging sections, most

imagers here in SGL are really good, quite a lot are really really good, but I prefer to observe, go-to

mounts never enter my head, but are a useful tool for imaging, as they say, everyone to their own.

Whatever floats your boat, Enjoy!