What mount would you get if in my position?

[ChrisLX200]

Thanks Steve for the advice and I have made the decision for the short list = Avalon + CCD vs 10 Micron.

The thing is that although my current budget will get one or the other, I will be able to get a CCD within the next 12 months or sooner, my wife wants me to get her a new car so until that is done my hands are currently tied  ! Otherwise I would just get the 10 Micron and an ATIK now.

So the question really is it worth spending the extra on the mount given it would only mean carrying on with the DSLR for approx 6 to 12 months?

Best Regards

Another way of looking at it... why spend the whole wad on a mount that will then essentially be unemployed for 6-12 months (a DSLR does not equal employment for such a mount). I can understand not wanting to buy something you may later feel needs upgrading - something that perhaps you feel is not the best, but then you may as well wait until you can afford both mount + camera. You need to think carefully about what will actually do the job rather than lust after a particular piece of hardware, and anyway you may find better options crop up in the intervening 6-12 months. The 10-Micron is a good mount but it isn't the only option out there.

Mind you, I should not be the one to offer advice - being that I dropped damn near £7k on a 5" refractor (including all accessories) yet still find I need a new mount... A more modest OTA plus a new mount might have made more sense! Nevetheless, I don't regret buying the TV refractor for one second because it is just perfect for the job, and eventually (next year) I will have a new mount and in the meantime I'm still getting reasonable images with the old mount. However, having to use a DSLR is a bit different, it simply isn't up to the job of imaging faint DSOs and you will not be happy with the results - not if you're the sort of person who is looking to get high quality images (which you must be considering your budget and potential purchases). Whereas I can still get reasonable images with my old mount you won't with a DSLR, and make no mistake - no matter which camera you use there is still an awful lot of work involved capturing the data and processing it (arguably even more in trying to get the best from a DSLR). Chances are you'll get fed up turning out mediocre results on your expensive mount, despite all the hard work. So either wait until you have a viable complete package if you insist on the 10-Micron or change the components to fit within your current budget.

Just my 2ps worth...

ChrisH

[Sp@ce_d]

Andrew I've been imaging using an neq6 for the past few years and the only reason I want to upgrade that mount is for a higher payload, as I want to use a multi shooter setup.

When I moved from DSLR to CCD I kicked myself for not doing so sooner. I totally understand your angst for making the right decision... We've all been there.

Any of the mounts discussed will serve you well providing they are used within the limits they are designed for but there will always be a learning curve to get to grips with.

6-12 months in AP terms in the UK is not a lot of clear dark nights. If you know you will have your budget for the CCD you want by then maybe that 12 months is worth spending perfecting the modelling on a 10 Micron. If it was me I'd want some results sooner. Guiding for the Tak should be a breeze & I'd go for a nice CCD & Avalon.

Don't get me wrong.. That 10 Micron on AB&S had me seriously thinking but it won't handle the payload of my future plans.

Have you thought about how you want it all to hang together ?

Will it be attended or unattended & how are you controlling it all?

[Dark Matter]

I'm in favor of the EQ8 as I have one and swear by it. While it had some teething issues in the beginning, I can tell you now Synta have solved all those issues with the newer models.

 It's tracking and GOTO accuracy is IMHO, a credit to SW.

However, like all things in life, it all comes down to what have you to spend. Sure, many of us would like to have this and that, but unless you are planning to do serious astro-imaging or research and money is no problem, then why settle for anything less than an ASA, AstroPhysics 3600GTO or even a Paramount ME?

But since SGL has some of the UK's (and other lands) best amateur astronomers here to help you, we all have our preferences and while this flurry of expertise is at hand, it will be YOU to decide what is best for your purpose.

Aside, rumors are getting around that SW could be in the design stage of a super mount.(>100kgs payload) to surpass the EQ8.

Whether it's a rumor or what I don't know, but I can not see why Synta (SW) could not to bring out a mount similar to the Paramount ME or AstroPhysics 3600GTO. Only time will tell.

Good luck in your choice of mounts!

[ollypenrice]

I wouldn't touch an ASA with a ten foot pole, not being an electronics engineer, but it's good to know that your EQ8 is working now. I tried one just too soon, perhaps. Such is life.

Olly

[MartinB]

Andrew, I've been following this thread with a lot of interest but haven't really commented  because so many issues have been raised.  One of the most unnerving things about the thread is the suggestion that the Avalon is the budget option.  It is the cheapest of the 3 listed (now that you have removed the EQ8 from your short list) but it is a very high end "budget option"!  It has also been described as mid range.  I think this too is misleading.  It is mid range in price terms starting with an Eq3 and going to a Paramount ME but often with mounts the big money products also have huge weight carrying capacity.  I think the Avalon can rightly be considered to be high end, in performance terms, for a mount with a recommended imaging weight limit of 20Kg.

You need to think about the imaging you are going to be doing.  First of all, if you are spending this amount of money you should be thinking independently of your current SCT.  Is it going to be observatory based or are you going to be lugging it out into the garden?  If it is in an obsy are you still going to want to take it to the odd star party or dark sky site?  Believe me, if it is in an observatory you will soon find that it is a real pain in the neck to strip it down and take it away anywhere!  The Mesu is a big mount and really best suited to a permanent siting.  The Avalon appears to be the most portable of the lot and this matters if you are using it out in the garden but the 10 micron wouldn't be unmanageable.  A Tak EM200  would have you polar aligned and ready to go at least 20 minutes quicker than any of them because of the sheer quality of it's polar scope but that's another story!!!

Any of these mounts will carry your SCT and Baby Q, mounted together, with ease.  If you are going to be observatory based and looking at getting a large, more esoteric, heavy and expensive scope e.g. large newtonian, dall kirkham, Richey chretien then the Mesu would be the one to go for.

In my opinion the ability to do unguided should be the least of your concerns.  If imaging with your SCT you will need to off axis guide near the meridian because of the potential for mirror flop.  The self guiding of the 10 micron won't address this issue, neither will it correct for flex.  I'm sure you are aware that there are a few hurdles and frustrations to overcome when imaging with an SCT, most of these won't be solved by a high quality mount.  I love my Meade 10" ACF and think it is one of the most under rated scopes around so I don't want to put you off, you just need to be aware (and look into adaptive optics!).

I can't resist giving a shout out to to the glorious EQ6 and CGEM mounts.  They are the biggest bang per buck in the whole of astroimaging.  A couple of years ago I bought a CGEM mainly for visual but also for star parties because I'd got fed up of stripping down my obsy based EM200.  This mount has never failed to impress.  It is simple to align, the polar alignment routine is accurate as is the goto.  I have done some occassional imaging, largely experimental and the guiding accuracy has been excellent.  On a night of good seeing, using 5 second guide exposures the RMS guide error was under 0.5arc secs in both axes.  The mount was carrying an 8" newtonian and an ED120 plus a very heavy duty losmandy side by side mounting plate.  The EQ6 uses EQ mod software (as does the Avalon) and there is a wealth of advice available on this.

Finally, the best bit of advice I can offer, speak to Ian King.  He will run through it all with you and you can be confident of honest, expert advice regardless of whether he stocks the product or not. It isn't just me who holds Ian in the very highest regard, he is hugely respected within the astro imaging community.

[Barry-Wilson]

Andrew, echoing Martin, I've found Ian King to be very willing to help with objective advice - he's certainly helped me a lot over the last year.

HTH

Barry

[ollypenrice]

Very sound points from Martin.

I, too, like the NEQ6 and have two of them, but for long FL imaging they do, as a breed, lack predctable accuracy. Some are excellent, some can be made excellent, but for long FL I'd pay more because for high precision the NEQ6 is hit and miss in the mass production game. I also wish that everyone used Tak's alignment routine. It is head and shoulders above the rest as Martin says. But I'm not, overall, entirely happy with my EM200 and feel it should be better for the price.

And, yes, if you want someone who knows the ropes on mounts for imaging then Ian King is as good as it gets. When I called to discuss the possible purchase of the Avalon he mentioned the elasticity straight away to be sure I was aware of it. I was, and had seen several being used here, but it's nice to know that he was, as ever, dead straight.

Olly

[Zakalwe]

I tell you what, it's a great position to be in. There's so many blooming good mounts out there now occupying the £1500 to £5000 mark. A few years ago there seemed to be a big gap between the EQ6 and the "big" boys...now there seems to be a much greater range from an £800 HEQ5 up to the Paramounts ME....

EQ6

AZ EQ6 GT

EQ8

CEM60

Avalon

10 Micron

Paramount MX

A great spread of costs and capabilities. It's similiar with scopes...the Chinese factories are starting to knock out really good quality pieces of kit, from 'fracs to RCs. It's a great time to be in the hobby! :icon_salut:

[AndrewG]

Andrew I've been imaging using an neq6 for the past few years and the only reason I want to upgrade that mount is for a higher payload, as I want to use a multi shooter setup.

When I moved from DSLR to CCD I kicked myself for not doing so sooner. I totally understand your angst for making the right decision... We've all been there.

Any of the mounts discussed will serve you well providing they are used within the limits they are designed for but there will always be a learning curve to get to grips with.

6-12 months in AP terms in the UK is not a lot of clear dark nights. If you know you will have your budget for the CCD you want by then maybe that 12 months is worth spending perfecting the modelling on a 10 Micron. If it was me I'd want some results sooner. Guiding for the Tak should be a breeze & I'd go for a nice CCD & Avalon.

Don't get me wrong.. That 10 Micron on AB&S had me seriously thinking but it won't handle the payload of my future plans.

Have you thought about how you want it all to hang together ?

Will it be attended or unattended & how are you controlling it all?

Thanks for the post and to answer your questions:-

I have no idea how it is going to hang together  and at present it looks like just a Pier, TAK 85 and Clamshell (no finder or guidescope!).  That is why I am leaning towards a CCD OAG combo and looking at the ATIK I could also use the guider as a planetary imager on the SCT.

With regards to attended etc. what I want is a system that is quick to turn on and start imaging,  I then would like to leave unattended and just check back every 20 minutes or so. With regards to control I have no idea given I have only so far used APT for capture, a stand alone Synguider and the CPC's goto system.

Best Regards

[AndrewG]

Andrew, I've been following this thread with a lot of interest but haven't really commented  because so many issues have been raised.  One of the most unnerving things about the thread is the suggestion that the Avalon is the budget option.  It is the cheapest of the 3 listed (now that you have removed the EQ8 from your short list) but it is a very high end "budget option"!  It has also been described as mid range.  I think this too is misleading.  It is mid range in price terms starting with an Eq3 and going to a Paramount ME but often with mounts the big money products also have huge weight carrying capacity.  I think the Avalon can rightly be considered to be high end, in performance terms, for a mount with a recommended imaging weight limit of 20Kg.

You need to think about the imaging you are going to be doing.  First of all, if you are spending this amount of money you should be thinking independently of your current SCT.  Is it going to be observatory based or are you going to be lugging it out into the garden?  If it is in an obsy are you still going to want to take it to the odd star party or dark sky site?  Believe me, if it is in an observatory you will soon find that it is a real pain in the neck to strip it down and take it away anywhere!  The Mesu is a big mount and really best suited to a permanent siting.  The Avalon appears to be the most portable of the lot and this matters if you are using it out in the garden but the 10 micron wouldn't be unmanageable.  A Tak EM200  would have you polar aligned and ready to go at least 20 minutes quicker than any of them because of the sheer quality of it's polar scope but that's another story!!!

Any of these mounts will carry your SCT and Baby Q, mounted together, with ease.  If you are going to be observatory based and looking at getting a large, more esoteric, heavy and expensive scope e.g. large newtonian, dall kirkham, Richey chretien then the Mesu would be the one to go for.

In my opinion the ability to do unguided should be the least of your concerns.  If imaging with your SCT you will need to off axis guide near the meridian because of the potential for mirror flop.  The self guiding of the 10 micron won't address this issue, neither will it correct for flex.  I'm sure you are aware that there are a few hurdles and frustrations to overcome when imaging with an SCT, most of these won't be solved by a high quality mount.  I love my Meade 10" ACF and think it is one of the most under rated scopes around so I don't want to put you off, you just need to be aware (and look into adaptive optics!).

I can't resist giving a shout out to to the glorious EQ6 and CGEM mounts.  They are the biggest bang per buck in the whole of astroimaging.  A couple of years ago I bought a CGEM mainly for visual but also for star parties because I'd got fed up of stripping down my obsy based EM200.  This mount has never failed to impress.  It is simple to align, the polar alignment routine is accurate as is the goto.  I have done some occassional imaging, largely experimental and the guiding accuracy has been excellent.  On a night of good seeing, using 5 second guide exposures the RMS guide error was under 0.5arc secs in both axes.  The mount was carrying an 8" newtonian and an ED120 plus a very heavy duty losmandy side by side mounting plate.  The EQ6 uses EQ mod software (as does the Avalon) and there is a wealth of advice available on this.

Finally, the best bit of advice I can offer, speak to Ian King.  He will run through it all with you and you can be confident of honest, expert advice regardless of whether he stocks the product or not. It isn't just me who holds Ian in the very highest regard, he is hugely respected within the astro imaging community.

Thanks Martin.... the truth is that Ian King has already helped me a lot over the past few years and he is my much preferred source of kit; if he did not sell the Avalon I would have just gone with the 10 Micron, I sent him an e-mail before I put on the first post so will be talking to him Monday morning for sure. 

With regards to the Avalon once it is set up can it be parked or do I have to align every time and how is it to Polar align using the handset; maybe someone can explain what I would need (Software etc. cause I guess this will be added cost?  

The things that appeal to me with the 10 Micron is that I can do a 25 star align and Polar align and then forget it as it will not be moved from the obs so then I just need to turn it on when I want to image (no faffing around); my problem in life like so many people is after a long day at work I just want simplicity  .  

If the Avalon can be parked so I do not have to align every time then I would guess that this would end up being my choice....

Thanks

[swag72]

I'm sure an Avalon user will be by soon so they can answer your questions.

[ollypenrice]

I don't know if it can be parked! Maybe it can with EQ Mod?  As wth my Argonavis Mesu I don't bother, I just do a one star alignment at the start of the night. This is a thirty second job. (At the moment I don't have a top class drift alignment of the Avalon so I do a two star. That's only because I haven't wanted to waste a second of our guests' imaging time since it arrived). Any mount can be accurately aligned for free using drift. My only experience of software aligning was when aligning Jonas's 10 Micron in the robotic shed. It was very good. In three iterations we were down to about 30 arcsecs. In an observatory setup getting a good drift alignment isn't difficult. Once you have it a one star nightly alignment should be fine. 

Quite honestly, you can, in theory, throw a lot of software at a problem and get a fantastically convenient system going - until it stops working. If/when (I'm of the 'when' persuasion!!) it stops working you'll wish you just had a handset and a one star align routine.

Olly

Edit; just found this thread regarding EQ Mod, which I don't yet use on my Avalon but is possible. http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/102118-eqmod-setup-help/

It seems that you can indeed leave a park position in the software and just restart from where you left off. Nice. Must get that sorted.

[Zakalwe]

Doesnt the Avalon use Skywatcher motors and electronics? If so, it's EQMOD compatable which means that you can have a whole host of Park positions.

I would have thought that most mounts will have some variant of Park, which allows the mount to be switched off and then re-started without having to sky-align again.

[Sp@ce_d]

Indeed I'm under the impression it's the same as my EQ6 synscan. So EQMod can define any & multiple park positions. I just power on & plate solve to the required position, start guiding & fire away. I'm assuming the Avalon would be the same.

[MartinB]

It can be parked with eqmod, if you want.  However, once your mount is polar aligned the rest is easy.  If you don't park you just slew to a bright star near your target, sync your planetarium software on that, use same star to focus and then tell the software to go to your target.  Frame it up manually or using plate solving if you like software solutions and away you go. 

[Barry-Wilson]

I use Eqmod with my Avalon using an eqdir lead from my laptop.  I can access all of the fabulous and reliable eqmod functionality: its park function, model building and pulse guiding etc.  Interfaces like a dream.  I don't use the handset.

I switch on the mount and connect to it through CdC, eqmod starts and off you go . . .

I image with SGPro which provides 'back garden' automation (ie not truly robotic) and can set it running multiple sequences and you're able to just check on it now and then.  There are many choices of capture software as I'm sure you know.

Barry

[Barry-Wilson]

Andrew - If it'll help with any specific questions you have about the Avalon, I'm more than happy for you to PM me and I'll give you my home telephone number if you'd like to call.  Sometimes a 5 minute telephone call can save many lines of typing.

Barry

[AndrewG]

Thanks for all the help Olly, Zakalwe, Martin, Sp@ce_d , Barry and every one else. 

So looks like I will be getting the Avalon Linear Fast Reverse, ATIK 6 One kit (FW + OAG) and some filters then .

Ian King first thing Monday morning...  

Olly  / Zakalwe - I will be reading up on EQmod over the weekend.

Martin B - I think given the weather we have I will need plate solving so that I can get enough data; what software should I use (maybe Barry would suggest SGP)?

Barry - When it is up and running I am sure I will have some questions so I will PM you  , thanks for the offer. 

Me thinks this is going to be one big learning curve from now on!

Best Regards

[perfrej]

Just a small correction regarding mirror flop and 10Micron. If the mirror flop happens at roughly the same point every time it will be modeled by the mount and will not pose a problem. You will loose the sub where the flop happens (most likely) as you will when guiding.

Anyway, the Avalon is a great mount and can be controlled by EQMOD. Can't go wrong with that!

/per

[Singlin]

I use Astro Tortilla for plate solving. It is free and you can download the database for offline use when in the field.

Here is a link to a tutorial.

http://lightvortexastronomy.blogspot.ro/2013/08/tutorial-imaging-setting-up-and-using.html?m=1

[Singlin]

I have Marco Lorenzi's Family staying at the Hotel at the moment- great privelage.

He won the astronomy photographer of the year by the Royal Observatory of Greenwich in 2011 (remote observatory catogery)

[PNJ]

you won't regret getting the Avalon mount.   I believe the mount comes equipped with a new control system if required called Star go, 

good luck,  and if you need to ask anything about the mount, i be happy to help. 

Paul J

[Zakalwe]

Thanks for all the help Olly, Zakalwe, Martin, Sp@ce_d , Barry and every one else. 

So looks like I will be getting the Avalon Linear Fast Reverse, ATIK 6 One kit (FW + OAG) and some filters then .

Ian King first thing Monday morning...  

Olly  / Zakalwe - I will be reading up on EQmod over the weekend.

Martin B - I think given the weather we have I will need plate solving so that I can get enough data; what software should I use (maybe Barry would suggest SGP)?

Barry - When it is up and running I am sure I will have some questions so I will PM you  , thanks for the offer. 

Me thinks this is going to be one big learning curve from now on!

Best Regards

Brilliant! That sounds like a very nice kit-list!

I'm turning into a complete fanboi for Sequence Generator Pro. I fiddled about with Astrotortilla but found that it worked inconsistently. Some nights it would just hang and would have to be killed via Task Manager.

Have a bash with SGP..it's completely free to trial for 45 days with no restrictions. The Elbrus plate-solving works well, but it's even easier if you set-up a local Astrometry.net server.

http://mainsequencesoftware.com/Content/SGPHelp/SequenceGeneratorPro.html?SettingUpElbrus.html

http://forum.mainsequencesoftware.com/t/howto-setup-a-local-astrometry-net-server/143

[ollypenrice]

Yves loves Sequence Generator Pro was well, with his Avalon. I dare say I need to offer a free stay to some of you software gurus who can help me get this stuff up and running...

Heheh,

Olly

[Zakalwe]

Yves loves Sequence Generator Pro was well, with his Avalon. I dare say I need to offer a free stay to some of you software gurus who can help me get this stuff up and running...

Heheh,

Olly

Free is always good Olly! Can ya pick me up at the airport tomorrow morning? :icon_bounce: :grin:

It's actually very easy to set-up. The creator went to some lengths to make the process painless, especially if your gear is already working. For instance, you don't have to name the filters again in the filterwheel section- the application reads the details from the existing driver configuration. Stuff like that is a neat touch and shows that the developer is bang on the money.

I especially like the way that it can read an image off Flickr. So if you see something that you'd like to image, just point SGP at the Flicker page and it downloads it, plate-solves it, slews the scope to the target and then matches the scope position to it.