What mount would you get if in my position?

[ollypenrice]

CCD versyus DSLR isn't hard...

lly

[AndrewG]

Hi

I have the Avalon fast reverse,   but I'm due to fully retire soon  and would love the idea of unguided and i have been looking at the 10 micron but for a observatory setup.   Im impressed by the few reviews I've seen,

However i think it might be over the top for a, portable set=up each night

Even if i did get a 10 micron, i would still keep my Avalon for star parties and and quick set ups.

And as Ollly mentioned guiding is no hassle, well using the Avalon its not,  plug and play it is.

i have no probs, doing 30 minute subs with my 8 inch Edge Hd

You got a hard choice, i don't envy your decision,   but i be tempted to go with a reasonable mount and CCD Camera, as the CCD route would open a new world for you in imaging.

Paul J

Indeed, I'd far rather move to CCD and moderate mount than use a DSLR on the perfect mount.

Olly

The two short-listed mounts are really a bit too different for a fair comparison as the Mesu has a much higher payload while the GM1000 is probably better for portable use given the easy setup and the fact that you do not have to guide. If unguided imaging is your goal then you have to be careful about the quality of the scope you use, something you do not have to be with the Mesu or the Avalon.

Then, as the final nail in the coffin, is the CCD vs DSLR...

Why, why, why is it so hard? 

CCD versyus DSLR isn't hard...

lly

Thanks for the comments above...   as you all say it is a hard choice.

My current thinking is as follows:-

Get the 10 Micron and use the TAK 85 FSQ with Canon 5D Mark 2 unguided until such time I can buy a dedicated CCD (which would be probably be xmas 2015).

Get a cheaper mount (Avalon?) and a CCD with OAG etc.

The only real must for me is that I want something that is already set-up so when I have a clear night I can just set the thing going very quickly and get a result; as you probably realise using a CPC and Synguider setup has been quite frustrating at times.

My ethos so far (post the CPC / Synguider that is) is to purchase components that will meet my end goal (given Rome was not built in a day).

Help... my total budget is £6500 so what would you do???

[swag72]

I agree with Olly I'm afraid - CCD all the way. Much more versatile - you can do narrowband imaging for example. Easier to process in my experience as well.

If you get a cheaper mount, such as the Avalon for example, and a CCD, your imaging will be transformed much more than with an expensive mount and a DSLR. I suppose it depends on your priorities and what you want to get out of the hobby.

[AndrewG]

I agree with Olly I'm afraid - CCD all the way. Much more versatile - you can do narrowband imaging for example. Easier to process in my experience as well.

If you get a cheaper mount, such as the Avalon for example, and a CCD, your imaging will be transformed much more than with an expensive mount and a DSLR. I suppose it depends on your priorities and what you want to get out of the hobby.

How good is the Avalon for the observatory set-up, once initially setup would it just be a matter of turning it on like the 10 Micron?

How easy to Polar align etc.?  Does it have GOTO because that is a must for me.

[swag72]

I use the Avalon in my observatory - I switch it on and off it goes. I use it in conjunction with EQMOD, Cartes du Ciel and Maxim and it also has a SW handset if that's what you prefer. For polar alignment I use PemPro software, I've never looked through the polar scope and have never PA'd with it any other way.

Does it have GOTO? I tell it to goto a target and that's where it goes! I'm wondering if you mean encoders?

[Zakalwe]

Guiding isn't the big deal that it seems to be made out to be. A simple finderguider works great with a wide-angle setup.  An OAG adds a bit more complexity and probably isn't needed at this focal length.

The choice looks to be super-duper unguided mount and DSLR vs very capable mount, CCD and guiding? I'd be going for the latter any day of the week. You'll gain a shedload more sensitivity with a CCD over DSLR, the ability to create a bank of darks to be re-used over and over. Plus, if you go mono you open the whole world of narrowband. You'll learn shedloads about new ways to combine the data, you'll be able to go into old images and transform them with H-a data.

I don't think that there's any decision to be made, to be honest. Plus a capable mount like the Mesu/Avalon/EQ8/CEM60 will last you for years with a light load like the Tak 85

[ollypenrice]

While I'm wary of new products, especially from firms prone to Beta testing on the public, there are plenty of good mounts for small refractors. I like the Avalon because it has proven reliable at long focal lengths and is very well made, with a potentially long lasting and maintenance free drive train. It isn't the stiffest drive train I ever used but the guiding is good, as is the QC from this firm. Also I'm frankly biased against worm drives. Good ones are fine but I've had hassles with backlash in several mounts and like to see it elimnated at source!

Very accurate GoTo is nice (10 Micron) but Yves has his Avalon set up to plate solve and auto-flip while he's asleep. All this software managing isn't my bag but for those who like it, it's there.

Good small apo (Baby Q, ideally) and Aitk 383 or 490 or One (monochrome) and you're good to go. Imaging like this is a treat. It just works. You get pin sharp data and very little hassle since your guiding requirements are not exacting. I wouldn't use an OAG at short FL. It's a faff for nothing. I'd guide with the new Lodestar, too. (Groan, another cable failure on the old one two nights ago but they've replaced that impossibly silly little ST4 cable on the Lodestar 2. How anybody could have specified the original is beyond me.)

Olly

[Zakalwe]

Groan, another cable failure on the old one two nights ago but they've replaced that impossibly silly little ST4 cable on the Lodestar 2. How anybody could have specified the original is beyond me.)

You could always sack the ST4 off and pulse-guide?

[AndrewG]

Guiding isn't the big deal that it seems to be made out to be. A simple finderguider works great with a wide-angle setup.  An OAG adds a bit more complexity and probably isn't needed at this focal length.

The choice looks to be super-duper unguided mount and DSLR vs very capable mount, CCD and guiding? I'd be going for the latter any day of the week. You'll gain a shedload more sensitivity with a CCD over DSLR, the ability to create a bank of darks to be re-used over and over. Plus, if you go mono you open the whole world of narrowband. You'll learn shedloads about new ways to combine the data, you'll be able to go into old images and transform them with H-a data.

I don't think that there's any decision to be made, to be honest. Plus a capable mount like the Mesu/Avalon/EQ8/CEM60 will last you for years with a light load like the Tak 85

While I'm wary of new products, especially from firms prone to Beta testing on the public, there are plenty of good mounts for small refractors. I like the Avalon because it has proven reliable at long focal lengths and is very well made, with a potentially long lasting and maintenance free drive train. It isn't the stiffest drive train I ever used but the guiding is good, as is the QC from this firm. Also I'm frankly biased against worm drives. Good ones are fine but I've had hassles with backlash in several mounts and like to see it elimnated at source!

Very accurate GoTo is nice (10 Micron) but Yves has his Avalon set up to plate solve and auto-flip while he's asleep. All this software managing isn't my bag but for those who like it, it's there.

Good small apo (Baby Q, ideally) and Aitk 383 or 490 or One (monochrome) and you're good to go. Imaging like this is a treat. It just works. You get pin sharp data and very little hassle since your guiding requirements are not exacting. I wouldn't use an OAG at short FL. It's a faff for nothing. I'd guide with the new Lodestar, too. (Groan, another cable failure on the old one two nights ago but they've replaced that impossibly silly little ST4 cable on the Lodestar 2. How anybody could have specified the original is beyond me.)

Olly

Thanks guys but my problem is thus far I have used the CPC925 as my guidescope.. so using a Lodestar means another scope and mounting kit?  I don't even have the finders scope for the Baby Q!

My total budget is £6500 max.. so what should I get

[Sp@ce_d]

Quite interesting to see an AP thread where for once we are not all saying buy the most expensive mount you can afford.

So how about looking at it from this angle for a different approach.

Decide what kind of targets you want to image. Check those for the FOV with the various CCD's & Tak combo's

http://astronomy.tools/

Having decided upon which CCD FW & Filters THEN see what budget you have remaining for the mount.

[MartinB]

The Avalon mount has a quoted maximum imaging weight of 8kg.  People are saying that they are using in with focal lengths in excess of 2000mm.  These scopes must exceed that weight limit. What's the story here?

The reason I ask is that I am interested in an equatorial fork mount so that I don't have to perform a meridian flip.  My dome has quite a tight aperture and if I performed an automated meridian flip after I've gone to bed the change in the position of the mount means I'm imaging the inside of the dome!  I've previously dismissed this mount given that my Meade 10" SCT ACF weighs 13kg

[AndrewG]

The Avalon mount has a quoted maximum imaging weight of 8kg.  People are saying that they are using in with focal lengths in excess of 2000mm.  These scopes must exceed that weight limit. What's the story here?

The reason I ask is that I am interested in an equatorial fork mount so that I don't have to perform a meridian flip.  My dome has quite a tight aperture and if I performed an automated meridian flip after I've gone to bed the change in the position of the mount means I'm imaging the inside of the dome!  I've previously dismissed this mount given that my Meade 10" SCT ACF weighs 13kg

Hi Martin,

Looking on Ian Kings site the Avalon Linear Fast Reverse has 20kg payload for imaging, don't know where the 8kg has come from?

[swag72]

Yep, 20kg quoted for the Avalon Martin. Took my C9.25 with ease and imaged happily at 2.3m with 30 minute subs.

[AndrewG]

Quite interesting to see an AP thread where for once we are not all saying buy the most expensive mount you can afford.

So how about looking at it from this angle for a different approach.

Decide what kind of targets you want to image. Check those for the FOV with the various CCD's & Tak combo's

http://astronomy.tools/

Having decided upon which CCD FW & Filters THEN see what budget you have remaining for the mount.

So what about this for a plan:-

Atik One with OAG and GP Guider (Ian King) = £2550

Avalon Linear Fast Reverse = £3200

Total = £5750

This would leave me a few hundread quid to allow for mouinting it to my pier? and I think I would then need to save up for the filters?

In addition in the future if I Deforked the CPC and got a focus lock and had a separate rear focus at the back (Huchtec do it I think)  I could possibly stick that on the Avalon instead of the TAK and use the Atik with OAG to image stuff at the longer FL ( I already have the Celestron Focal Reducer so I think it would be about 1.2m FL).

Let me know what you think as I want to get the best bang for buck but also have future scope to use the same mount in the future (I.e. don't want to by the Avalon and within 5 years want the 10 Micron).

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

What do you think??

[MartinB]

Doh!!!  Been looking at the M-zero.  Ooh that gives me something to think about!!

[PNJ]

seems to me your getting more confused,  i would decide if your happy with DSLR or wanting to go CCD.    From the telescopes you have, i would recommend the Avalon Mount, and go CCD.   I love mine and had no issues with the mount.

Also its easy to pack up and take to star parties etc. 

Really think you need to decide what you want out of imaging this next year.   Also in the  future, you can sell the Avalon to upgrade.

If you already had a good ccd then i would go 10 micron,

paul j

[AndrewG]

At present I am happy to keep plugging away with the DSLR as long as it is straight forward.. my current setup (CPC Fork mount) piggy back imaging with TAK FSQ85 and guiding with a Synguider aint great as I can spend hours just trying to get it to guide right and also get the image framed correctly.

Before people mentioned about upgrading to a CCD (a few threads above) I had sort of decided to go for the 10 Micron with just the TAK 85FSQ and DSLR and use PER's software to iron out the flex.    The truth is as long as I can image with the 10 Micron without guiding I would be happy for the next 18 months and then look at the CCD upgrade.

Let me know what you think?

[Zakalwe]

Guiding with the Celestron sounds awkward to me. It's a long focal length, heavy and prone to mirror flop which is exactly what you don't need in a guiding solution.

I use an OAG & QHY5L-II with my 115mm 'frac on an EQ8. Power everything on, start Sequence Generator pro, slew to anywhere in the sky and take a 10 second image. SGP plate solves that in under a minute and syncs the scope/mount/Carte du Ciel. i then slew to my target. Or I can feed SGP with an image of my target- either one of my own or off Flickr and it plate-solves that. SGP then takes another image to check on the accuracy of the slew and adjusts automatically (I normally get within a pixel or two of the source image.)

Open PHD, select a star and hit guide. After another minute or two, PHD has calibrated.

I then tell SGP how many subs to take, what length, which filter to use (and when to swap filters). It autofocuses and runs everything from there. 10 0r 15 minutes after starting I am inside watching TV or on the 'Net.

[MartinB]

Zak, I've been imaging long enough to know that things only run this smoothly after a lot of practice and set up time.  What you have outlined above, to the uninitiated, far from sounding like a piece of cake, actually sounds pretty daunting.  The initiated will be thinking "driver not recognised", "guide star failed to move in x", "unable to connect to scope", "no ascom driver found".  Or the scope ends up in a completely different part of the sky to where it should be, or the camera fails to connect, or the camera doesn't produce an image etc etc.  I have had more fun and games with plate solving that I wish to remember.

There is no easy ride in astro imaging and I'm sure that applies to all kit regardless of price.  I have a routine which generally works as smoothly as yours but I bear the scars on my back, as they say.

[Zakalwe]

Zak, I've been imaging long enough to know that things only run this smoothly after a lot of practice and set up time.  What you have outlined above, to the uninitiated, far from sounding like a piece of cake, actually sounds pretty daunting.  The initiated will be thinking "driver not recognised", "guide star failed to move in x", "unable to connect to scope", "no ascom driver found".  Or the scope ends up in a completely different part of the sky to where it should be, or the camera fails to connect, or the camera doesn't produce an image etc etc.  I have had more fun and games with plate solving that I wish to remember.

There is no easy ride in astro imaging and I'm sure that applies to all kit regardless of price.  I have a routine which generally works as smoothly as yours but I bear the scars on my back, as they say.

Me too, Martin. But so far (and I'm fairly new to SGP) it's done nothing but impress me. I keep thinking "it can't be that easy!"

No doubt when it goes wrong (and it will at some point!) I'll be cursing it to hell and back, but touch wood, it's been as I outlined.

[ollypenrice]

Zak, I've been imaging long enough to know that things only run this smoothly after a lot of practice and set up time.  What you have outlined above, to the uninitiated, far from sounding like a piece of cake, actually sounds pretty daunting.  The initiated will be thinking "driver not recognised", "guide star failed to move in x", "unable to connect to scope", "no ascom driver found".  Or the scope ends up in a completely different part of the sky to where it should be, or the camera fails to connect, or the camera doesn't produce an image etc etc.  I have had more fun and games with plate solving that I wish to remember.

There is no easy ride in astro imaging and I'm sure that applies to all kit regardless of price.  I have a routine which generally works as smoothly as yours but I bear the scars on my back, as they say.

Apart from the three occasions when you used the word 'or' when the word 'and' might have been more appropriate, I agree!!!!

For the sake of simplicity I like to run things in their own software wherever possible so I quite like handsets for controlling mounts, despite the convenience of third party control systems relying on ASCOM. Ditto cameras, filterwheels etc.

In setting up a system, simple and self contained are terms I like.

Olly

[Barry-Wilson]

Andy

There is some very good advice in the thread, which I'm sure you appreciate.  I also empathise with you wanting to make the best balanced decision - it is good to have choices, as agonising as it may seem at the moment   .

Having recently changed to using CCDs I wouldn't swap back to a DSLR for the reasons outlined in a myriad of threads on SGL.  There are fabulous images using DSLRs I know but, in the limited time I've been involved in imaging, there seem to me to be far more from using CCDs.  You have the budget to get BOTH a good quality CCD and mid-range mount (e.g. Avalon) - it's the choice I would make (don't forget AB&S).  I know people often recommend the mounts they have used, so I acknowledge I am biased, but the Avalon is as reliable and accurate as described above by some very experienced folk.  It is also a thing of beauty.

Just to confuse and put a spanner in the works, I've just seen a nearly-new 10 micron for sale on AB&S from Julian Hancock in Kingsbridge, south Devon . . . 

Barry

[steppenwolf]

I normally (and with good reason!) recommend concentrating on the mount first and foremost but your insistence on continuing with a DSLR camera rather than a dedicated CCD camera muddies the water a little for me as I am not convinced that this is the best route for you! Using a high quality mount and refractor and then stifling the potential with the 'wrong' camera doesn't sit too comfortably and I'd rather see you taking great images sooner rather than average images for some time to come because of the camera. Don't get me wrong, fabulous images can be captured with a DSLR camera but it is not the best tool for the job and you will be making your work harder than it needs to be within the budget that you have available.

The Mesu v 10Micron debate although great fun is not really helping - they both do an amazing job, just in a slightly different way. The Mesu has exceptional tracking but still requires guiding to get the very best images whereas the 10Micron has better tracking but this only translates into the very best images if there are zero flex issues which can be hard to achieve  - autoguiding with an off axis guider (OAG) is a pretty relaxed affair and compensates for more than just mount tracking errors. However, both mounts require a good, cooled CCD camera to capture the best images.

I do wonder if perhaps you would be better served by a cheaper autoguided mount like the Avalon and an upgrade to a CCD camera to get the most out of your expenditure.

[AndrewG]

Andy

There is some very good advice in the thread, which I'm sure you appreciate.  I also empathise with you wanting to make the best balanced decision - it is good to have choices, as agonising as it may seem at the moment   .

Having recently changed to using CCDs I wouldn't swap back to a DSLR for the reasons outlined in a myriad of threads on SGL.  There are fabulous images using DSLRs I know but, in the limited time I've been involved in imaging, there seem to me to be far more from using CCDs.  You have the budget to get BOTH a good quality CCD and mid-range mount (e.g. Avalon) - it's the choice I would make (don't forget AB&S).  I know people often recommend the mounts they have used, so I acknowledge I am biased, but the Avalon is as reliable and accurate as described above by some very experienced folk.  It is also a thing of beauty.

Just to confuse and put a spanner in the works, I've just seen a nearly-new 10 micron for sale on AB&S from Julian Hancock in Kingsbridge, south Devon . . . 

Barry

Thanks Barry for the post ... and you are quite right the Avalon's are aesthetically pleasing  .  

Have seen the AB&S but it is only 1K cheaper than a new one with warranty and given the distance from me would not be worth going for although many would (my ethos in life is plan for the worst and hope for the best so it has to be a decent discount for me to take risk! - it is a bit why this thread has taken shape  ).

Best Regards

[AndrewG]

I normally (and with good reason!) recommend concentrating on the mount first and foremost but your insistence on continuing with a DSLR camera rather than a dedicated CCD camera muddies the water a little for me as I am not convinced that this is the best route for you! Using a high quality mount and refractor and then stifling the potential with the 'wrong' camera doesn't sit too comfortably and I'd rather see you taking great images sooner rather than average images for some time to come because of the camera. Don't get me wrong, fabulous images can be captured with a DSLR camera but it is not the best tool for the job and you will be making your work harder than it needs to be within the budget that you have available.

The Mesu v 10Micron debate although great fun is not really helping - they both do an amazing job, just in a slightly different way. The Mesu has exceptional tracking but still requires guiding to get the very best images whereas the 10Micron has better tracking but this only translates into the very best images if there are zero flex issues which can be hard to achieve  - autoguiding with an off axis guider (OAG) is a pretty relaxed affair and compensates for more than just mount tracking errors. However, both mounts require a good, cooled CCD camera to capture the best images.

I do wonder if perhaps you would be better served by a cheaper autoguided mount like the Avalon and an upgrade to a CCD camera to get the most out of your expenditure.

Thanks Steve for the advice and I have made the decision for the short list = Avalon + CCD vs 10 Micron.

The thing is that although my current budget will get one or the other, I will be able to get a CCD within the next 12 months or sooner, my wife wants me to get her a new car so until that is done my hands are currently tied  ! Otherwise I would just get the 10 Micron and an ATIK now.

So the question really is it worth spending the extra on the mount given it would only mean carrying on with the DSLR for approx 6 to 12 months?

Best Regards