End of an Era...

[jjosefsen]

Just saw this posted on another forum..

https://www.ocregister.com/2019/12/05/irvine-telescope-maker-meade-files-for-bankruptcy-after-losing-antitrust-case/

 

Doesn't sound too positive. 🤔

[johninderby]

Not good news but not terminal.

In the US chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection is often used by bigger companies carrying out reorganization or restructuring. Doesn’t mean the company is going out of business though as companies can carry on trading while they make changes. Gives them protection from creditors while changes are made and can stop a hostile takeover.

In this case it’s more about protecting themselves from a court judgement in an anti-trust case.

A lot different to bankruptcy in Europe.

Edited December 5, 2019 by johninderby

[JamesF]

If it's true that Meade's new owners conspired to manipulate the market and drive other vendors out of business however, my sympathy for them will be somewhat limited.

What isn't clear to me in that article is why Orion's lawyers are saying the damages could be tripled.

James

[BabyPepper]

The conspiracy is not limited to meade. This is testament to the entire optical industry, china got fingered and caught merely because they are the focus of world political relations right now.   

 

Every market in the entire world is rigged with the curse of "suggested manufactures retail price", there is no question about it.        

 

*coughBaader planetariumcough*.   *coughnikkon* *coughcannon*  

 

 

13 cents worth of silver on a mirror =  an 8000% markup.   Pressing a start button on an automated cnc type machine = 10,000% markup.   Oh man does the OPTical filter industry have the "gimme all you got" curse big time.....  

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by BabyPepper

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

7 hours ago, BabyPepper said:

The conspiracy is not limited to meade. This is testament to the entire optical industry, china got fingered and caught merely because they are the focus of world political relations right now.   

 

Every market in the entire world is rigged with the curse of "suggested manufactures retail price", there is no question about it.        

 

*coughBaader planetariumcough*.   *coughnikkon* *coughcannon*  

 

 

13 cents worth of silver on a mirror =  an 8000% markup.   Pressing a start button on an automated cnc type machine = 10,000% markup.   Oh man does the OPTical filter industry have the "gimme all you got" curse big time.....  

 

It is not just the silver on the mirror, it is all the equipment you need to actually silver a mirror, the money required to buy and maintain the cnc machine, etc. The actual cost of the sand from which the silicon used in your CPU is made is nothing whatsoever, but I can see why the CPU itself costs quit a bit more.  Being in the hobby for 40 years, I have seen the prices of telescopes fall (even when not taking inflation into account), and the quality and diversity of optical equipment go through the roof at the same time. I own not one but several Fabry-Perot interferometers for H-alpha solar imaging which would have cost a fortune when I started out. The same holds for my Ca-K kit. The choice, performance and quality of eyepieces has skyrocketed since I started (when a quality Plossl or Ortho was about the best you could get here). Quality optics have never been more affordable.

This is not to say certain companies mightn't be playing nasty trick on us, but we should not tar the entire industry with the same brush

[Cjg]

This https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Bay-Area-telescope-company-says-Asian-13739535.php#photo-15990893 claims the owners of Meade colluded with Synta to ensure pricing levels remained consistent and that competitors were excluded.  Not quite sure how that equates to seeking 180 million dollars in damages! 

[IanL]

5 hours ago, Cjg said:

This https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Bay-Area-telescope-company-says-Asian-13739535.php#photo-15990893 claims the owners of Meade colluded with Synta to ensure pricing levels remained consistent and that competitors were excluded.  Not quite sure how that equates to seeking 180 million dollars in damages! 

The US legal system has the concept of punitive damages which isn't (generally) the case in the UK. So you can make a claim for way more than your actual losses and the court (or jury) can award them as a discouragement to others thinking of trying something similar. They generally get whittled down through a series of appeals after they are awarded, so initial claims tend to shoot for the Moon not expecting to get anything close to what is being claimed.

Question is whether anti-trust regulators will decide to take a look at this whole mess and dish out fines or other sanctions. May be they'll consider the market to small-fry to bother with, but either way it is us consumers who suffer when companies behave like this.

[maw lod qan]

Sadly, working to put your competitors out of business isn't only in the optical industry. The influx of electronics and tools from both China and Mexico is becoming standard now over here. 

Some are okay, quality wise, others pure junk. Worst part is the pay scale those workers get paid. That's one of the big advantages of going over seas.

I'm in a position to see the % of markups on those products and its amazing.

[Louis D]

15 hours ago, johninderby said:

Not good news but not terminal.

In the US chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection is often used by bigger companies carrying out reorganization or restructuring. Doesn’t mean the company is going out of business though as companies can carry on trading while they make changes. Gives them protection from creditors while changes are made and can stop a hostile takeover.

In this case it’s more about protecting themselves from a court judgement in an anti-trust case.

A lot different to bankruptcy in Europe.

Correct.  Bankruptcy rarely means going out of business in the US.  More often, it is used as a legal reorganization tactic to get out from under debts, union contracts, and court judgements.  I have no idea what the equivalent is called in Europe.

Ironically, had the Chinese manufacturers not bought US companies Meade and Celestron and had simply colluded overseas, they would have been outside the reach of US antitrust laws.

[johninderby]

There is no equivelent to chapter 11 in Europe. Declaring bankruptcy here means you are going out of business unless someone buys the company and puts money into it.

The closest thing in the UK is going into administration which means someone else such as an accounting firm takes over your business and looks for a buyer but will wind it up if no buyer is found.

Edited December 6, 2019 by johninderby

[BabyPepper]

8 hours ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

It is not just the silver on the mirror, it is all the equipment you need to actually silver a mirror, the money required to buy and maintain the cnc machine, etc. The actual cost of the sand from which the silicon used in your CPU is made is nothing whatsoever, but I can see why the CPU itself costs quit a bit more.  Being in the hobby for 40 years, I have seen the prices of telescopes fall (even when not taking inflation into account), and the quality and diversity of optical equipment go through the roof at the same time. I own not one but several Fabry-Perot interferometers for H-alpha solar imaging which would have cost a fortune when I started out. The same holds for my Ca-K kit. The choice, performance and quality of eyepieces has skyrocketed since I started (when a quality Plossl or Ortho was about the best you could get here). Quality optics have never been more affordable.

This is not to say certain companies mightn't be playing nasty trick on us, but we should not tar the entire industry with the same brush

yes those magentron sputtering machines are super expensive and ion beam sputtering is literally the most cutting edge technology on earth.  Obviously not something that average joe 50 years ago could use or even afford.  But now adays all those filters come from a machine where the "doctor" type in a formula on a control panel, which add's said formula to its memory, then the doctor literally press start like a microwave oven in your kitchen.  After all it uses the same parts from a microwave, just custom engineered for its purpose...    In all seriousness, once a company discovered its first successful  coating formula, this gets stored in the computer memory forever permanently until you update it to be more efficient, faster or just better.   You can watch step by step videos of a cvd machine, or ion assisted sputtering machine and exotic coating operations in progress at these facilities too they are not hiding anything.          

 

Those sputtering targets alone cost as much as a car,!

 

However on the most basic level here is the silvering or aluminizing process;  a pressure cooker modified with a food sealer and a tungsten filament could coat a silver mirror with the most basic middle grade school education and tool skills    (provided the child is disciplined/supervised well enough)   Coincidently silver itself was rigged on the world market as well(multiple times), which also made headline news. 

Ive seen these market rigging / monopoly scandals in the headlines news since the 90s when all the (chinese)factories fixed the price of random access memory chips.  (remember when 4mb used to cost $4000.00? they got caught too)

 

 

And now just A couple days ago a major tuna canning corp(bumblebee) also busted rigging the tuna market.  

 

Yes its most likely all markets in my opinion.   

 

To me, its just business as usual.  I work in the matress industry.  Another market that is 100% price rigged.         This is literally an every day business practice to ensure the company has a 100 year future, and the only thing business owners care about is that their competition goes away.   IF your business plan has  enterprise which  is too efficient for society itself, well thats a monopoly.      

 

 

Not arguing here, just good conversation!  

 

I would surely hope that you guys know about Lunt Engineering and APM?   IF not https://astromart.com/forums/vendors/coronado-lunt-daystar-solar-filters/lunt-engineering-start-up-58261?page=1#post148876

 

Business as usual.   

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by BabyPepper

[Louis D]

4 hours ago, johninderby said:

There is no equivelent to chapter 11 in Europe. Declaring bankruptcy here means you are going out of business unless someone buys the company and puts money into it.

The closest thing in the UK is going into administration which means someone else such as an accounting firm takes over your business and looks for a buyer but will wind it up if no buyer is found.

Haven't some too big to fail companies been nationalized in Europe rather than let them go under?  I think they are sometimes re-privatised once they get on their feet again?

[MarsG76]

Sad news as this is an end of and era as Meade files for bankruptcy...

 

https://www.ocregister.com/2019/12/05/irvine-telescope-maker-meade-files-for-bankruptcy-after-losing-antitrust-case/?fbclid=IwAR2cxD5gIWF2koJkJ3ZS_fGCq6h_9E8k-FzOBd_zhznqW5zaZRREItpr18c

 

 

[BabyPepper]

Personally, i think Orion should have allocated a large portion of their profit to purchase optics manufacturing equipment and not relied on another industrial nation to build their product.    This is happening right now with every nation in the world,   Most modernized countries get goods imported from china because that is where the heavy industrial technology is prominent.  Realistically how many companies in the UK have a lens grinder that can make a 102mm objective?  How many can make ten simultaneously?  Now how many can make 1000 equal optics in 30 days?    Well.  China is the only country that has the machines because that is where American CEO's dumped their money to build them in the last 40 years.  

This is 100% exactly why trump is putting all these sanctions on china.  A-lot of prominent American business has willfully allowed the accumulation of heavy machines in china(not in the business homeland) to the point where it supplies the whole world with industrial goods(ali-baba ring any bells).   It is the mere fact china has these machines in excess(more than they can operate), ready to go 24 hours a day. The united states does not. United kingdom does not.

Companies(like Orion) need to start investing in "homeland equipment" and train "homeland employees" how to operate it.      I live in the united states ,  and sadly but this is the truth.  60% of our business is not industrial, but food serving.  

 

So after Orion wins their millions of dollars in damages, what are they gonna do?   IF they are at all concerned about their future they would get the equipment they need.  But in all honesty think Orion is just going to take their money and willfully dissolve the corp. How could it be called an Orion telescope knowing that it was just a Meade or Celestron?  This is another problem in its own category to me.    Re-labeling/re-branding parts should be considered equally dishonest.    We do this all the time in the mattress world, why?  Because there are only 4 manufacturers of "foam" in the entire world.  So you get it in bulk, and re-brand it in your own country.  It is the reality of business.

 

 Televue is doing the same thing here guys. They have industrial scale lens operation's in china. CNC milling batches of their optics and coating them in China.     IS Televue also getting its optics supplied from Sunny optics? (Corporate secret's are protected by non-disclosure contracts and confidentiality clauses)    The company reputation would get severely damaged if that information became available.

 

Now,   I have some contracts, with "certain" optical companies that if I  were to post and share here, there is a good chance you would never purchase goods from that company ever again.  

Coronado solar scopes (used to be LUNT ENGINEERING) certainly is using Sunny optics!   So that means Coronado is also included in the bankruptcy as Meade is its parent corp.

 

The hardest truth to swallow here is that Industrial china was built by every nation, equally. Now that china has their foot inside every home and business in the world, it is upsetting world leaders.

 Mattresses, TV's, chemicals,  cellphones, toys,  plastics, polymers, fabrics.   EVEN YOUR DISH SOAP!

 

It may be a good thing if Meade goes extinct , perhaps it will be an end to their over produced achromatic doublets?     Higher quality optics(ed glass only) may have the opportunity to accumulate in the market, increasing the supply and lowering the demand.

 

 

IT sounds harsh, but hey.  Life is hard when somebody changes the rules in the middle of it.

 

 

  

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by BabyPepper

[johninderby]

Judging by some of the latest comments have they bothered to read the thread from the beginning and understand what chapter 11 means. 🤔

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, BabyPepper said:

Personally, i think Orion should have allocated a large portion of their profit to purchase optics manufacturing equipment and not relied on another industrial nation to build their product.    This is happening right now with every nation in the world,   Most modernized countries get goods imported from china because that is where the heavy industrial technology is prominent.  Realistically how many companies in the UK have a lens grinder that can make a 102mm objective?  How many can make ten simultaneously?  Now how many can make 1000 equal optics in 30 days?    Well.  China is the only country that has the machines because that is where American CEO's dumped their money to build them in the last 40 years.  

This is 100% exactly why trump is putting all these sanctions on china.  A-lot of prominent American business has willfully allowed the accumulation of heavy machines in china(not in the business homeland) to the point where it supplies the whole world with industrial goods(ali-baba ring any bells).   It is the mere fact china has these machines in excess(more than they can operate), ready to go 24 hours a day. The united states does not. United kingdom does not.

Companies(like Orion) need to start investing in "homeland equipment" and train "homeland employees" how to operate it.      I live in the united states ,  and sadly but this is the truth.  60% of our business is not industrial, but food serving.  

So after Orion wins their millions of dollars in damages, what are they gonna do?   IF they are at all concerned about their future they would get the equipment they need.  But in all honesty think Orion is just going to take their money and willfully dissolve the corp. How could it be called an Orion telescope knowing that it was just a Meade or Celestron?  This is another problem in its own category to me.    Re-labeling/re-branding parts should be considered equally dishonest.    We do this all the time in the mattress world, why?  Because there are only 4 manufacturers of "foam" in the entire world.  So you get it in bulk, and re-brand it in your own country.  It is the reality of business.

Televue is doing the same thing here guys. They have industrial scale lens operation's in china. CNC milling batches of their optics and coating them in China.     IS Televue also getting its optics supplied from Sunny optics? (Corporate secret's are protected by non-disclosure contracts and confidentiality clauses)    The company reputation would get severely damaged if that information became available.

Now,   I have some contracts, with "certain" optical companies that if I  were to post and share here, there is a good chance you would never purchase goods from that company ever again.  

Coronado solar scopes (used to be LUNT ENGINEERING) certainly is using Sunny optics!   So that means Coronado is also included in the bankruptcy as Meade is its parent corp.

The hardest truth to swallow here is that Industrial china was built by every nation, equally. Now that china has their foot inside every home and business in the world, it is upsetting world leaders.

 Mattresses, TV's, chemicals,  cellphones, toys,  plastics, polymers, fabrics.   EVEN YOUR DISH SOAP!

It may be a good thing if Meade goes extinct , perhaps it will be an end to their over produced achromatic doublets?     Higher quality optics(ed glass only) may have the opportunity to accumulate in the market, increasing the supply and lowering the demand.

IT sounds harsh, but hey.  Life is hard when somebody changes the rules in the middle of it.

Okay, all sorts of wrong here.

First, there's not enough volume in amateur astronomy sales to justify building a factory in the US.  If there was, Celestron and Meade would still be American made, owned and operated.  They had their own factories in the US, but there just wasn't the volumes at the necessary price points to support US manufacturing.

Second, Orion is unlikely to see a fraction of their judgement once Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization and appeals null out much of the judgement.  Certainly not enough to build an optics factory.

Third, the Chinese government has been dumping a lot of money into all basic industries.  It's very difficult for a purely profit driven company to compete against a heavily subsidized company.

Fourth, the US does have optical manufacturing capabilities in PerkinElmer and others.  However, pretty much all of their manufacturing goes toward military contracts and high-end corporate customers willing to pay big bucks for the finest optics available.  If you're willing to pay $4000 per eyepiece and $50,000 for a telescope, perhaps PerkinElmer might be able to enter the amateur astronomy market.  Until then, it's not going to happen.  There's just not enough profit margin to bother with.

Fifth, the Meade brand will reemerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy probably still owned by Sunny.  I'd be surprised if they were forced by the court to surrender the brand to Orion.  They'll be back as new-Meade much like new-General Motors 10 years ago.  Old-GM got stuck with all the old GM debts and union retirement commitments.

Sixth, Televue uses factories in Japan and Taiwan for lens grinding and assembly.  They do no business with the PRC because they would clone their designs and undercut them just as they did to Thomas M. Back and his TMB Planetary eyepieces.

Seventh, Sunny is the parent company of Meade, so any bankruptcy reorganization of Meade will have no effect on Sunny and any of their other customers including Lunt.  Meade was simply purchased to be a brand for Sunny's products in America and elsewhere in the Western world.

Eighth, Sunny products are not going anywhere.  Even if the court ordered the assignment of the Meade brand to Orion, Orion is still left with having to buy products from Sunny, Synta, Kunming, Long Perng, etc.  I have no idea if the court ruling does anything to prevent future collusion between the Chinese suppliers.  I doubt it, though.  All they can do is order fines or block products from being sold in the US.  The latter would pretty much shut down Orion's rebranding business.

Ninth, if you really want an American made telescope, buy from Astro-Physics, TEC, Teeter, Obsession, or PlaneWave.  If you want American made eyepieces, buy Brandon eyepieces from Vernonscope.

[BabyPepper]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

Okay, all sorts of wrong here.

First, there's not enough volume in amateur astronomy sales to justify building a factory in the US.  If there was, Celestron and Meade would still be American made, owned and operated.  They had their own factories in the US, but there just wasn't the volumes at the necessary price points to support US manufacturing.

Second, Orion is unlikely to see a fraction of their judgement once Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization and appeals null out much of the judgement.  Certainly not enough to build an optics factory.

Third, the Chinese government has been dumping a lot of money into all basic industries.  It's very difficult for a purely profit driven company to compete against a heavily subsidized company.

Fourth, the US does have optical manufacturing capabilities in PerkinElmer and others.  However, pretty much all of their manufacturing goes toward military contracts and high-end corporate customers willing to pay big bucks for the finest optics available.  If you're willing to pay $4000 per eyepiece and $50,000 for a telescope, perhaps PerkinElmer might be able to enter the amateur astronomy market.  Until then, it's not going to happen.  There's just not enough profit margin to bother with.

Fifth, the Meade brand will reemerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy probably still owned by Sunny.  I'd be surprised if they were forced by the court to surrender the brand to Orion.  They'll be back as new-Meade much like new-General Motors 10 years ago.  Old-GM got stuck with all the old GM debts and union retirement commitments.

Sixth, Televue uses factories in Japan and Taiwan for lens grinding and assembly.  They do no business with the PRC because they would clone their designs and undercut them just as they did to Thomas M. Back and his TMB Planetary eyepieces.

Seventh, Sunny is the parent company of Meade, so any bankruptcy reorganization of Meade will have no effect on Sunny and any of their other customers including Lunt.  Meade was simply purchased to be a brand for Sunny's products in America and elsewhere in the Western world.

Eighth, Sunny products are not going anywhere.  Even if the court ordered the assignment of the Meade brand to Orion, Orion is still left with having to buy products from Sunny, Synta, Kunming, Long Perng, etc.  I have no idea if the court ruling does anything to prevent future collusion between the Chinese suppliers.  I doubt it, though.  All they can do is order fines or block products from being sold in the US.  The latter would pretty much shut down Orion's rebranding business.

Ninth, if you really want an American made telescope, buy from Astro-Physics, TEC, Teeter, Obsession, or PlaneWave.  If you want American made eyepieces, buy Brandon eyepieces from Vernonscope.

While not defending or arguing my opinion or others here, it has major validity.   ( i do admit i fell for the televue republic of china rumor)

 

Meade was not just a Telescope.  They had many military / communications industry contracts.  They have supplied  fiber optic relay elements for the last 20 years. Optics are optics. Not telescopes.       Everybody gets used for business equally, one company is not relied on unless an "exclusive contract" is written up.  In the most generic sense; Telescopes and eyepieces are just a by product of the optical industry, as are eyeglasses.     

 

This is going to have a ripple affect on the entire optical industry. I am certain.

 

I think there is a bit of speculation here, that telescopes  are some kind of special unique product?   They are not.  1/10wave flatness is 1/10 lamda in china, united states, mexico, and the moon.     You pay a manufacturer to make a product based on the instructions/specifications you gave them.    That is it.  There is no other process involved here.  If you use that optic for a telescope, well that is an option.   

.95 strehl, at 540nm is exactly the same to to the "high quality telescope maker astrophysics" as it is to the worst optic on earth.  If the worst optic on earth is still .95 strehl at 540nm, the astrophysics version is 100% identical.

 

The entire world has an "industrial standard", and it is followed by all industries.    The united states government is no different, nor the military.  If they want high precision optics made in china; its going to happen.  China has launched satellites into space for many years now. They are a nuclear power, and they are masters of all tool and die technology.  Precision optics are a cakewalk over there, but you still gotta pay for it to be done.     The united states has a very privatized optics industry, which is why there are no more american companies dedicated to telescopes.  This is only because the demand for telescope objectives does not exist.  Literally non existant, you want one you can find it anywhere in the world pretty much.

It is also a dying hobby, where skies are becoming less and less visible.

Likewise, you said it yourself. There are american companies making optics tailored to the purchaser, and this does not mean i cannot pay them to grind and coat a telescope objectives. Yet, these american companies are still limited by their equipment and customer demand.  Do you know how much it costs to shut down a factory for one piece, due to lost business from the guy with more money who wanted more parts?        (whole telescopes? doubtful)

Suddenly a $100.00 optic, becomes a $1500.00 optic.  You want a thousand?  Suddenly a $100.00 optic becomes a $25.00 optic.    The incentive is to always buy in bulk to ensure un-delayed operation 

Optical industry is not supplying tubes/focusers/baffles , so CVI / thorlabs / newport optics / will not build me a complete telescope no matter how much money i throw at them..... 

 

Astophysics is an american company that can not even turn out ten objectives a month, so the argument here again is that china has the equipment advantage and the whole world of private business knows this.  Its not that astrophysics is a high quality company, Its that they literally are a  tiny company making things one or two at a time to ensure that quality remains (the AP factory is 1 hour away from my house).   If they were to pump out 100 scopes a month, the quality is going to nosedive because compromises have to made to accommodate the new industrial scale.    

 

If i can build one- .99 strehl telescope objective per year and 10,000 people want that one objective, how much is that telescope worth? Who determins that price scale for supply and demand?

  This is when industry takes over for society , and dumps out thousands of equivalent part to provide the same level of enjoyment for the world. Not just that sole person who bought  the only telescope  produced by the tiny company that only gets 10 sales objective per year.       

 

Its about volume, and who can produce it cheaper. Thats how industrial contracts / government contracts operate. 

 

Orion did this to themselves and you can read the entire reasoning for it at company7.   The choice to use China was 100% based on manufacturing prices and suggested retail sale price.

http://www.company7.com/televue/news.html

Orion telescopes of California is a well regarded mail order oriented retailer whose ower came to realize that for its success Orion should rely less on companies run by people who probably knew less than he. And so Orion gradually picked up products and sometimes marketed these under the "Orion" trademark, or designed and commissioned items to be made for sale under their trademark. And Orion came to a agreement that until 2002 made it the distributor of Vixen telescopes in the U.S.A. Orion too faced the same problem of having a good Japanese made product that was not enjoying the demand that cheaper Chinese made telescopes. And even after the agreement between TeleVue and Vixen, Orion will continue to distribute the Vixen Lanthanum eyepieces, and the Vixen "Megaview" binoculars.

So although you might have purcahsed an orion/televue product in the united states, well it turns out after all the argument it was still a vixen optic.

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by BabyPepper

[stash_old]

13 minutes ago, BabyPepper said:

ts about volume, and who can produce it cheaper. Thats how industrial contracts / government contracts operate.

IMO No way is that true - thats perhaps how it should work maybe.

Involve politics and that all goes by the wayside alway has and mostly always will.

"not in the interests of national security" , "too big to fail" ,"hidden govt subsidies"  etc etc - they exist everywhere at every level.  E.G's War Planes, Banks, Car making.

 

 

 

[johninderby]

How long before this thread gets locked? 🤔

[Stu]

8 minutes ago, johninderby said:

How long before this thread gets locked? 🤔

👮‍♂️👮‍♂️👮‍♂️

[saac]

58 minutes ago, BabyPepper said:

If i can build one- .99 strehl telescope objective per year and 10,000 people want that one objective, how much is that telescope worth? Who determins that price scale for supply and demand?

 

The individual who is prepared to part with the seller's asking price. Not really anymore complicated than that  

Jim 

[ollypenrice]

31 minutes ago, johninderby said:

How long before this thread gets locked? 🤔

A long time, I hope. It's interesting, it is not party-political and members are sharing insights and expertise.

Olly

[ollypenrice]

5 minutes ago, saac said:

The individual who is prepared to part with the seller's asking price. Not really anymore complicated than that  

Jim 

True, but this glosses over the extraordinary effects of marketing and the devious skills of those who manage it...

Olly

[saac]

2 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

True, but this glosses over the extraordinary effects of marketing and the devious skills of those who manage it...

Olly

"The Heart wants what it wants - or else it does not care"

Jim 

[heliumstar]

4 hours ago, BabyPepper said:

Now,   I have some contracts, with "certain" optical companies that if I  were to post and share here, there is a good chance you would never purchase goods from that company ever again. 

 

I went through this Orion vs Meade on the other forum and got some info from the 'Internet' as well and am kind of dissapointed by Synta 'modus operandi' and will think twice next time I buy something from them. With these things I usually go all the way and just don't buy anything from companies I don't like even if it costs me more. So I would like to hear what you have to say and am kindly asking you to extend a little around your hint here.