Is Astronomy becoming lost to the poorly paid.

[dweller25]

11 hours ago, Bigwings said:

Bad title I know and let's face it Astrophotography tends to be for the well off. It's just sad to see the cost of reasonable kit rising fast. I'm just a visual observer and I am learning to stay with what I have which I could not afford to buy now. I'm thankful to have it but I feel sorry for key workers, carers etc for whom this hobby is getting out of reach. 😒

When I bought my first scope 37 years ago there was not much choice and they were expensive. 
I was young and not well paid so I just had to save up for longer 👍

[Sp@ce_d]

We never had it so good. When you realise you can achieve results that surpasses what professional observatories were capable of not that long ago! The rising costs are with just about everything as pointed out in previous posts. The decades of using cheap labour to feed our habits of a throw away culture are probably over. 

[Sunshine]

2 hours ago, johninderby said:

Anyone fancy a AV Designhaus Derenville VPM tirntable. 🙂

Costs way more than the average house in the UK. 🙀🙀🙀

A turntable? this looks like Elton John’s 3D printer, it must weigh a tonne

[Paz]

If you look at the gap between what the highly paid and low paid there is a big difference but if you look at the long term difference between what any given part of the earnings spectrum could afford decades ago compared to now we are all much better off.

I would agree that price rises in the last few years have been tough and hit those less well off more tangibly but the long term picture is a good one.

I agree light pollution is a long term problem, alongside dopamine addiction, by which I mean it's easier to pass your time for not a lot of money by doing things that social media companies etc would prefer that we do, rather than spending our time and money on a hobby that takes us away from our screens and their profits.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Paz

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

Compared to times past, for instance the 1970s/80s when entering astronomy was the preserve of the incredibly enthused and innovative DIY skilled person, or the modestly well off, astronomy on paper is less costly to enter as a hobby.

Unfortunately the pandemic, rises in equipment prices, the cost of living squeeze and wages not keeping up with inflation are all stacked against those who are less well off.

Consider for instance a band 2 NHS healthcare assistant or retail worker will only take home around £1500 per month including shift allowances or sales commision. If they live alone in a flat especially, that first telescope and accessories is quite a wedge. Added to that other costs like travel expenses (a car & camping gear?) to rural areas etc, then astronomy just is not cheap and if they want to progress, upgrade gear and learn more, then the cost of books, internet, potentially astrophotography kit etc begins to stack up.

That first step into astronomy in reality only needs to be around £70 - the cost of new reasonable binoculars and a book but for those who want to take the hobby further, who earn less than the (skewed to the south) national average wage, that is going to take some juggling of finances, saving up and trading in over a number of years. Pretty much as it was forty years ago, except now the mass produced equipment is much higher in quality and sophistication.

To use myself as an example. I'm not going to fib, my modest collection of new and pre-owned kit; binoculars, ed 4" refractor, 127mm Mak, three small mounts, assorted eyepieces, a dslr, planetary cam, various accessories and camping gear to stay at dark sites probably works out at £2500 or so spent. That's taken three years to build up with some creative financial juggling and spending less in other areas - the gaming PC has not been upgraded for four years, my car is a 4 year old runabout and aided by the pandemic, my very active social life has taken a nosedive. Although maybe I was too old for clubbing ten years ago... 😯

Sadness helped kickstart my gear collection. My partner developed breast cancer and the insurance paid off the mortgage on our very modest semi -detached ten years early. If that tragedy had not occurred then there's no way without indebting myself that I'd have this versatile kit with a £700 per month mortgage to contribute toward. Nevermind the wad we still spend on other bills and services with a 22 yr old uni student and 16 yr old college kid at home.

So yes, to reiterate, anyone with a job can get into astronomy easily and likely easier than when I was young, but moving along through the hobby is not so easy without some financial planning, know how and fortuity. Unless you're loaded... 🙄

Edited February 12, 2022 by ScouseSpaceCadet
Versatile

[cajen2]

4 hours ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

It was indeed, I ended up being part of the technical team giving advice, I really liked it all.
Although I loved Astro stuff back then I did not have a scope then and the time I spent on my reef I don't think I would have been able to do much astronomy, I ended up till all hours of the night then with lights out waiting to see what came up out of the rocks at night, it was amazing to watch.

Steve

Interesting...I was on the New Member Help team, till I had to close my tank down (divorce!).

[teoria_del_big_bang]

31 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

Interesting...I was on the New Member Help team, till I had to close my tank down (divorce!).

It will be a while ago now since I was last on, at least 10 years I think.

 

Just logged on again and my last post was Feb 2013.

Steve

Edited February 12, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[mikeDnight]

When you look at the cost of a season ticket to support a local football team, then multiply that by how many children you may have, then add one wife if she's interested, the cost a astronomy as a hobby pales. Thank goodness I hate football, as do my wife and son's.

If I was short of funds I'd save for a 6" Newtonian if I were looking for a serious telescope that could do it all. Unlike a season ticket, the telescope would last a lifetime. 

[SuburbanMak]

Lots of brilliant posts on here - I’d add that if I was going for the the lowest possible cost way into the hobby then my used ST80 on an equally used photo tripod could still keep me interested and delighted for years for around £150 quid all in (including a bit of flocking and a generic 32mm Plossl).  
(I am sure the same goes for used SW 130 /150 Newtonians etc) 

My “solar observatory” is an (excellent) old Prinz 330 60mm and a 12 quid Baader film filter - white light observing for the princely sum of £72 all in (and I probably overpaid for the OTA!). 
 

At the next level up I am closing in on a full set of Messiers with my Mak 127 which seems to me to be optically very good and  a perfectly capable instrument for a lifetime of observing for around £500 including the excellent AZ GTi mount.  It’s a big chunk if you’re on the national average wage (for example) but if you put it in the context of Gym membership then over a couple of years it’s peanuts compared to the satisfying hobby it enables. 
 

Do I hanker after a VX10 and a 3 or 4 inch Tak - of course I do but I don’t “need” them to get a massive amount of pleasure out of observing. Even these more expensive instruments don’t look outrageous when compared to what some of my mates spend on say golf club membership (never my bag…), hi-fi, cameras and don’t even get started on classic cars!

 
 

My other great passion is music and I treated myself to a lovely American pro fat-strat - but when I am belting out Springsteen in a packed, sweaty pub my £90 Tele seems to do very nicely  

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by SuburbanMak

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

1 hour ago, mikeDnight said:

When you look at the cost of a season ticket to support a local football team, then multiply that by how many children you may have, then add one wife if she's interested, the cost a astronomy as a hobby pales. Thank goodness I hate football, as do my wife and son's.

If I was short of funds I'd save for a 6" Newtonian if I were looking for a serious telescope that could do it all. Unlike a season ticket, the telescope would last a lifetime. 

Mike, although I'm sure the final paragraph is sound advice, I don't believe, as others have done here, comparing one hobby to another is really helpful or realistic.

For instance I have had to put to one side my spending on PC gaming, a hobby I have held on to since the mid eighties in order to afford my kit. If I started enjoying a bonkers night out again then I'd still only have binoculars!

Despite the nation's veneer of wealth there are hundreds of thousands of families who would have to save really hard and make choices to avoid a decent 6" reflector, mount and eyepieces. My partner and I enjoy a combined family income well above average. Yet we cannot afford the best in life, so I feel sorry for those less well off who have to make harder choices than not upgrading their PC or only owning a nice four yr old car rather than a new model.

As touched on earlier, added to the financial pressures is the light pollution in and around cities. Most of the population lives in those areas and to get the most out of the night sky requires travel to rural areas. Again an added cost. If one adds up the cost of two nights weekend camping approx. hundred miles away from home, including camp fees, food and petrol then you're looking at around £80. Compared to a B&B very cheap, unless you have to really scrimp to afford it.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by ScouseSpaceCadet

[BCN_Sean]

Not the poorly paid, but less accessible to the impatient/inquiet; my AP rig, that's taken 18 months so far from starting to get back in to looking up to the point where I'm starting to be happy with the results I'm getting from it.  All in, summed in with a camera I already owned, finding an optic I liked that is close to scale matched, focusers, heaters, guiding (though it doesn't guide in DEC, but it would if I broke out the soldering iron and built a motor bracket) it's cost me less than a week for a family of four at Butlins over easter.

 Over the same time, a few folk I know have also got in to pointing glass above the karman line, but with their impatience and Pavlov's dog-esque behaviour when given the option of next day delivery have spent a lot more on a lot less.

As my grandmother used to say "Prudence and patience pays in the long run, but a fool and his money are easily parted."

[iantaylor2uk]

I think if you want to set up from scratch and get good results in a short amount of time it will cost quite a bit, especially if you want to image at longer focal lengths (>800mm).

On the other hand, I believe many people on here though have started small, and built up gradually over many years. Although a good telescope or mount will be expensive, they will also last many years, so if you average the cost over 10 years or more, it doesn't look quite so bad. In addition, there is the option to buy second-hand, on UK astro buy and sell, or ebay. Buying a pair of binoculars and learning the night sky is relatively cheap, before you decide whether to dive in deeper.  

[saac]

18 hours ago, Bigwings said:

Bad title I know and let's face it Astrophotography tends to be for the well off. It's just sad to see the cost of reasonable kit rising fast. I'm just a visual observer and I am learning to stay with what I have which I could not afford to buy now. I'm thankful to have it but I feel sorry for key workers, carers etc for whom this hobby is getting out of reach. 😒

Is it getting out of reach?  What is the price of a basic web cam which can easily be modified and provide an accessible pathway into astrophotography?  Much of the required processing software remains free, DSS, SharpCap, Stellarium etc.  Mobile phones (functional astro cameras)  are pretty much ubiquitous now and it is a fairly easy task to place one to the eyepiece of a telescope and take your first astro photograph.  That is exactly how I started; my collection of astro equipment was a very slow burn (10 years +) as raising a family took priority - cloth cut to needs!   There is absolutely no need for anybody starting out to start committing £1000 on equipment . To be honest you really would have to question that strategy anyway  -  is the price per photograph produced really that sensible?  Patience is a virtue in this game.   I would argue that it has never been a better time to engage in astrophotography with many entry levels available. 

 

Jim 

Edited February 12, 2022 by saac

[M40]

I think it's the same with all hobbies, my wife for example does crochet, do you need all that yarn? I ask stupidly, she replies do you need all those adapters?. As with all hobbies, there is always an entry point and depending on your circumstances depends how far you take the hobby. If you are into the hobby, you make what you have work. And totaling everything I have spent so far, it doesn't even scratch the surface of keeping a classic Mini in good condition.

[Ouroboros]

It’s still perfectly possible to enjoy astronomy as a hobby at some level or another whatever your financial situation.

However there is something that I think has changed in the 12 years or so that I’ve been involved with astronomy and specifically with astrophotography. When I started astrophotography it felt like an amateur’s hobby. People were having fun making do with cameras they had - DSLRs, webcams etc - using software not specifically designed for astro imaging etc etc. it was still a little ad hoc. Nowadays it can look more like a professional hobby, if that makes sense. You can buy off the shelf pretty much professional level kit - telescopes, cooled cameras, mounts, guiders, controllers, dedicated imaging and processing software.  At the rate this is all going, once they add general artificial intelligence it’ll be possible to buy a complete kit which when set up will find and photograph the objects, process the images and upload the result without involving human input. Well, maybe I exaggerate, but you get my point maybe. I think the sheer ‘professionalism’ of what used to be very much an amateur hobby could be off putting for some. 

[Greymouser]

10 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

The complete opposite is true. When I first started in astronomy a 10" scope was a years wages! I had to save for months just to buy an 8" mirror set.

 

Back in the in the beginning of this hobby for me, I could not even afford to buy the mirror set, just drooled over the pictures. I made do with my old 50mm Greenkat and binoculars. I still have that scope, just cannot bring myself to bin it. When I look at the kit available now, even with the recent price rises, it is still way less expensive to get involved, than back in the 80's. ( As a proportion of income. ) That said, for the poor, it is still going to need planning and as ScouseSpaceCadet  says, sacrificing other things. For me it has been no holiday since 2007, for instance. 

Not that the reason for that was to intend to buy astro kit, but never mind...

This whole thread makes me think of a certain Monty Python sketch.

[mikeDnight]

3 hours ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

Mike, although I'm sure the final paragraph is sound advice, I don't believe, as others have done here, comparing one hobby to another is really helpful or realistic.

 

All I can say is that after 20 years in the hobby at the time, such a comparison motivated me. In 2001/2002 when a friend told me he paid £1000 per year to be a member of a local golf club, and a further £15 per game, it gave me the needed incentive to set aside a few pounds each week until I could afford the scope I wanted. It took me a while but eventually I was able to buy my dream scope at that time. Compared to my friends hobby, my hobby was cheap as I only need to pay once for life.  It did mean I be disciplined and empty my pockets of loose change before I spent it, and stop impulse buying of junk foods and drinks as well as takeaways.  

Edited February 12, 2022 by mikeDnight

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

Just now, mikeDnight said:

All I can say is that after 20 years in the hobby, such a comparison motivated me. In 2001/2002 when a friend told me he paid £1000 per year to be a member of a local golf club, and a further £15 per game, it gave me the needed incentive to set aside a few pounds each week until I could afford the scope I wanted. It took me a while but eventually I was able to buy my dream scope at that time. Compared to my friends hobby, my hobby was cheap as I only need to pay once for life.  It did mean I be disciplined and empty my pockets of loose change before I spent it, and stop impulse buying of junk foods and drinks as well as takeaways.  

Mike I can appreciate your reasoning and that worked for you. We both have made certain sacrifices to afford our kit, however when talking in terms of affordability in the general population, the comparison is difficult to hold up. The 'poorly paid' person in the thread title is highly unlikely to take up golf because of the cost of golf clubs, club membership prices and green fees. Playing golf, much like tennis, is still very much the preserve of those with above average disposable income unless the sport is an all consuming passion and that's literally all they spend on. Actually much like many amateur astronomers no doubt.

 

...and Greymouser I may know what sketch you're referring to. 😁

 

[fozzybear]

Back when i first got interested a simple plossl was 30 pounds and that was around 1997 still have it to this day to remind me, and could not afford a telescope so I made a Dob with the help from local astro group 8" f5 the primary pyrex cost 50 pounds for the blanks then grit, Luckily the club sourced via me a silvering vacuum chamber pump (ex colleague of my Dad) as they made electron microscopes and mass specs. The secondary came via OO and that again was another 50 pounds then the hardware spider and cell mount again from OO simple plywood and plastic drainage tube. So back then telescope Making was at the forfront as affordable as buying off the peg so to speak also you had ATM bulletin board on t'internet back in the day with Mel Bartell's if any of you remember. So i think that today's pricing is somewhat affordable as back then whey out of my league.

[Peter Drew]

As a 2 quid a week engineering apprentice in 1958 I couldn't even afford a used telescope let alone a new one.  Ended up having to make my own, still look where that got me!      🙂

[paulastro]

A few thoughts.

Telescopes are relatively far cheaper than when my mum  bought me my first scope in around 1967/68, a very basic 60mm refractor.

People rarely buy only what they actually need, rather than what they want, and stick with it. 

This isn't helped by telescope retailers and books/magazines referring to scopes such as 6 inch reflectors and achromatic refractors up to 3/4 inches as being starter scopes - that need 'upgrading'  barely before the owner has learned how to use it.  

Alas, too many people on various forums are too keen to tell beginners that they need to spend far more than is actually true.  Of course, many experienced observers give very helpful advice, but if you are a beginner, how do you know who to believe?

It's actually not essential that people 'progress' from being a visual observer to an imager - honestly!  Some, might think it a backward step 🙂.

Apart from some imagers, apparantly, no one needs a goto mount, or in fact anything electrical except torch batteries.

No one needs more than two or three eyepieces and a barlow.  Non of the eyepices need to have a field of more than 76 degrees, since you can't see the whole field all in one go anyway.

Nearly all of the most spectacular events I have observed over the years have not needed any optical aid at all.  Just a matter of being at the right place, at the right time and having skies clear enough to see the event.  The rest could have been seen in a three inch telescope, probably smaller.

There are many active astronomical societies that have events or regular sessions where you can go along and use their equipment.  Star parties are also great places to use different types of equipment.m

Astronomy is open to everyone.

 

 

 

 

[Macavity]

Putting aside (frankly) health concerns, the arrival of a state pension
converted me from "ever struggling" to "quite affluent"? Perhaps Mr.
Micawber was RIGHT, after all! As long as you can maintain a "roof
over your head", feed yourself... "happiness", is hard(er) to define? 😉

As a bit of fun, try reading, what the government thinks, makes for
a "Worthwhile Life"? On second thoughts. don't! Saying "No" (Don't
have it!) going down the list of "essentials" can get depressing?!? 😅



(Of course, it is "probably right" - As some LOVE to remind me!)
Or some of us simply have different circumstances / worldview?

But to me, it is surprising, e.g. HOBBIES, come so LOW down the
list for many other people. But, you can't win? Some neighbours
seem to "despise" me because I am (outwardly/conventionally?)
"Poor"! An Observatory? They think I'm a Secret Millionaire... 🤣 

Stuff sometimes annoy me tho: A Forumite (elsewhere!) started
a thread suggesting that people should: "Stop complaining re.
the price of Teleview stuff" and... "Learn how to budget"(!!!) 🙀
But then I suspect that was: "the wife's department"? [teasing!]

Edited February 13, 2022 by Macavity

[Matt S]

It’s certainly not a cheap hobby/interest, but it’s not what I’d consider out of reach. 
To give it some context, I’m a keen cyclist and liked to enter a few triathlons / sportives - amateur at most, but I’ve obviously accumulated a few bikes and gear over the years. I wouldn’t say these activities are out of reach interests. 

I think my first entry level bike was maybe £3/400, and I’ve certainly spent quite a lot more since then on bikes and gear. I’d be buying tyres that are £60/70 each - which only last the year at most. 

My current setup is far from an imaging rig, but I’m happy with what it gives me visually and cost wise I’ve probably spent the equivalent at most to what I would if I were starting out cycling afresh. 
I invested quite a few years into bikes - the cost/expense of it doesn’t seem that much when I consider how long I’ve been doing it. I see astronomy / imaging in the same light - more than an investment of money it’s an investment in time. 
 

I’d also argue theres a much better resale value / longer term usage from telescope equipment compared to other activities. Much less mechanical wear on things.

 

[Second Time Around]

When I first started at about age 11 I couldn't even afford a telescope for the first year, although I eventually made one with ex-Gov lenses from H.W.English.   Then my parents bought me a 50mm single element non-achromatic refractor on a wobbly table tripod.  As soon as I was able to start a holiday job I bought a Tasco 60mm refractor on an altazimuth mount.  Eventually, when we started full-time work my brother and I shared a second-hand 6 inch Newtonian on an equatorial mount.

Family and career got in the way soon after and I stopped observing until fairly recently.  I was flabbergasted on my return to astronomy to find that gear was so much less expensive in real terms (and often better) than it was first time around!

However, it's only now that I've sold my business and retired that I can afford anything but budget gear.  Now I've got pretty much most of what I need or want, although much of it is still second-hand.

It's a good thing I bought pre-Covid though as prices have certainly jumped up recently!

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Second Time Around

[Louis D]

On 12/02/2022 at 14:31, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

Playing golf, much like tennis, is still very much the preserve of those with above average disposable income

Off topic a bit, but don't y'all have outdoor public tennis courts that are free to play on?  We have them at many city and county parks, middle and high school grounds, and even a few churches with large grounds have them.  Then, all you need is a racquet and some tennis balls.  With so many, it's not too difficult to know which are generally available and when.  They are almost as common as outdoor half court basketball courts around here.

If you had said squash, handball, or racquetball, I'd have agreed.  Those courts are more difficult to find, generally being indoors.  You have to have a rec center or other club membership to use them.