Is Astronomy becoming lost to the poorly paid.

[Bigwings]

Bad title I know and let's face it Astrophotography tends to be for the well off. It's just sad to see the cost of reasonable kit rising fast. I'm just a visual observer and I am learning to stay with what I have which I could not afford to buy now. I'm thankful to have it but I feel sorry for key workers, carers etc for whom this hobby is getting out of reach. 😒

[cajen2]

 

28 minutes ago, Bigwings said:

Bad title I know and let's face it Astrophotography tends to be for the well off. It's just sad to see the cost of reasonable kit rising fast. I'm just a visual observer and I am learning to stay with what I have which I could not afford to buy now. I'm thankful to have it but I feel sorry for key workers, carers etc for whom this hobby is getting out of reach. 😒

I think it's still possible to buy a visual setup quite cheaply without buying rubbish (not so in the distant past!). In my case, I didn't want to spend too much on my first scope in case I lost my enthusiasm, so I got a SW 150p dob (currently £238). This gives me quality views, is light and portable and relatively cheap to upgrade by judiciously buying EPs.

I think half the problem is on forums like this where people (quite rightly) crow about their latest multi-thousand pound APO refractors and mounts and newbies suppose that's the only way to get good views. As for AP, the costs of that certainly make my eyes water! 😆

Please note I'm not knocking expensive refractors or their proud owners (I'd be the same!😛), just saying they're not necessary for quality viewing.

Clive

[ONIKKINEN]

On the contrary, i think its becoming cheaper and cheaper every day.

DSLRs are better and cheaper than they were 10 years ago, but dedicated astronomy cameras are also cheapening all the time. Right now there is some healthy competition in the camera market and you can get some very good cameras for not that much money. I wasn't in the hobby 5 years ago but looking at what some older models (like ATIK cameras) cost now it looks like the price to sensor area ratio has improved a lot. Also nowadays we have many cheap OSC narrowband filters like the Optolong L-extreme that bring the entry cost to narrowband imaging down by about 2000eur. Of course OSC+ duoband filter is not the same as mono camera + 3nm narrowband filter set but its in the same category at least and for a fraction of the price. Basic scopes and mounts are already pretty cheap and i doubt competition can bring this price down that much. Acquaintance of mine is into normal photography and he was amazed at how cheap some kit is, i mean you cant really get even a half-decent lens for 300eur but you can get a 130PDS with that, and that's already a pretty good scope.

Most tools used in the capture and post capture process are available for free and you can do pretty much anything without dropping a single cent on software, which is not how it could be. Right now i guide my telescope using PHD2, run my mount and camera with NINA using the built in USB connection that all new Skywatcher mounts have, preprocess and stack using Siril. All of these tools are free and work as well as the paid options. Sure the best software for processing (Pixinsight) costs a lot of money, but IMO beginners wont be needing that for a long time.

You can get a pretty decent setup for astrophotography (one you wont immediately regret) for as little as 1000eur, but would be better to have a bit more. This kind of price is in my opinion not outside most peoples reach. Of course there are differences in countries for what you can realistically afford as a worker but i think this applies to many of the most commonly seen nationalities here. If i think about my previous hobbies i dont think astrophotography is really that expensive compared to them. I used to ride/tune/tweak/upgrade motorcycles and it was around the same cost, i was really fanatically into gaming PCs a while back and of course this costs an arm and a leg as well. Even non-hobby items like smart phones and other consumer electronics are in this kind of pricerange. So if one can imagine owning a decent new-ish smartphone, a gaming console or PC then they could just as well own an astrophotography setup.

All of my kit has been bought on a warehouse worker salary, which i think most will agree is on the lower end of the salary ladder and not something you'd expect the typical astrophotographer to do. I started with an Astromaster 130 because it was 300eur, which was an amount of money i could lose and it would not be a disaster. Of course its not a good scope but it was good enough for me to want better and got me hooked so it did its job.

[Louis D]

The better question to ask is "Is amateur astronomy being lost to ever increasing light pollution?"  For example, in recent years, outdoor LED lighting has made matters worse by spreading stray light across the visible spectrum making light pollution filtration all but impossible.

[Sunshine]

Well I wouldn't say that, none of us got into astronomy because we saw a great price on a scope and bought it on impulse with the thought of maybe getting into astronomy one day. First comes the curiosity, the spark, born of some impromptu brush with astronomy which then sends us hunting for our first scope. By this time it is usually too late, that scope is coming one way or another.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Sunshine

[Roy Challen]

I was at my skintest when I first got into astronomy 20 odd years ago. Oh well nothing's changed there then😉

Seriously though, the choice and price range of equipment available now has never been better (supply issues notwithstanding).

It's the same in most hobbies, the point at which you're past the 'entry level' is in my opinion solely down to the person doing that hobby. To some, my gear is still entry level. 

I do agree that recent price increases won't have helped things, but buying second hand is always a good option.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Roy Challen

[Roy Cropper]

I don't think the hobby is becoming more expensive per se. The issue is that there is simply more available to spend ones cash on than ever before.

A starter could, in real terms, set themselves up with a modest new scope with much the same cost as before. Not only that, the internet brings a vast catalogue of used gear whereas in times past the amateur was stuck with local word of mouth, the local copy of Loot, or making their own.

I think that the problem, if it is a problem, is one of technology rather than cost. There is a simply vast array of equipment available today that wasn't available a decade ago, never mind 5 decades back when  I started in the hobby.

People couldn't buy that gear in uears past, and they don't actually have to buy it now.

Someone wanting to get into a niche arm of astronomy will pay more,  but that is true of any interest when one starts to advance within.  I would contend thst the actual beginner is no worse off than before, and in terms of choice and quality has never had it so good.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Roy Cropper
Typo

[StarryEyed]

No if we could get in a space ship and tour the universe we would because we are explorers no matter the cost. 

Variable stars with just a pair of binoculars is tremendous fun. Does it get cheaper than that?

 

[Mr Spock]

The complete opposite is true. When I first started in astronomy a 10" scope was a years wages! I had to save for months just to buy an 8" mirror set. If I remember correctly, it cost about £115 from Broadhurst Clarksons and I was on £40 per week. The tube and mount were made by me out of wood. Kellner eyepieces were about £30 each and Orthos £45 each - not a lot of difference 40 years later.

Mark those up to current day prices and you'll see astro kit is a fraction of what it used to be. 

[dnl]

My start into astrophotography was a £36 Canon dslr from ebay, £60 on skywatcher 120mm frac and a tracking eq5 and I couldn't believe how much I could achieve for less than £200. 

I'll admit nowhere near the same league as others but I'm happy with me efforts. 

It can be done on a budget 

All though I have just acquired a Heq5 Pro and looking for an ed80 🥴

[malc-c]

By definition, astronomy is one hobby where you don't need to spend anything on equipment to enjoy it.  Just get to a dark site and look up...  If you want to take it to the next level, then a pair of basic 8x40 binoculars will work wonders.

But in respect of true astronomical gear, such as telescopes and cameras, is it really that expensive or elitist ?  - My son is a semi-serious angler, by that I mean he will spend 24-48 hours most weekends from spring to autumn fishing at various lakes.  His rods, reels, bivi, bedchair, plus all the other kit and a barrow to carry it all on cost him two - three times what an HEQ5/200P rig cost now.  

One of my friends is into paintballing at National levels.  They started with guns that cost around the same as most entry level scopes cost now, EQ3 pro goto and an 150P for example.  Now they have guns that again, cost more than my HEQ5 mount.  They can also quite easily spend the equivalent of a top branded eyepiece just on paint balls for a weekend tournament.  I could go on and list other past times or interests such as flying RC models.... all require similar levels of investment to get started.

 

[cajen2]

And don't even get me started on marine reefkeeping, where even a modest 90cm tank plus equipment runs into several thousand....each fish or coral that you buy is £50-£100+ ..... and the electricity / maintenance costs a fortune too.

[Alien 13]

Buying astro kit can be relatively expensive if starting from scratch but a lot of kit that you may already own can easily be re purposed, a pair of binos that you have for birding, a DSLR you use for daytime snaps, even modern smart-phones can take acceptable AP images..

As to expensive hobbies try HiFi, you can pay more for a cable than the cost of a TAK for example.

Alan

[johninderby]

8 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

And don't even get me started on marine reefkeeping, where even a modest 90cm tank plus equipment runs into several thousand....each fish or coral that you buy is £50-£100+ ..... and the electricity / maintenance costs a fortune too.

I’ve often admired them but wanting to eat and keep a roof over my head means NOOOOOOO😫

[cajen2]

Just now, johninderby said:

I’ve often admired them but wanting to eat and keep a roof over my head means NOOOOOOO😫

Exactly! Plus if you really get into the more difficult-to-keep corals, you just won't have any spare time! My tank is now well established with easier corals and only takes minutes a week in maintenance.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

1 minute ago, cajen2 said:

And don't even get me started on marine reefkeeping, where even a modest 90cm tank plus equipment runs into several thousand....each fish or coral that you buy is £50-£100+ ..... and the electricity / maintenance costs a fortune too.

Tell me about it.
I had one and loved the hobby. Also joined a really good forum which had a good community spirit very much like SGL and loved the hobby.

But, as I started to earn less I just had to either scale it down and maybe at least go to fish only or get rid and due to the running costs alone (changing the salt water, electricity for all the pumps, and all other supplements required) sold all livestock to a local shop and dismantled it.
I miss it but couldn't justify the ongoing costs to keep the livestock healthy.

Regarding the OP's question I think to a degree Astronomy is very affordable, as mentioned above binos and a dark sky all you need.
Then even a reasonably light polluted backyard a 2nd hand Dobsonian doesn't break the bank and gives some great views.

But like anything, if the bug really takes hold and you want to go further, then it does get difficult on a budget, and if you want to venture more into AP than using your mobile to take some snaps then wow, even 2nd hand now can get pricey if you are struggling with rising costs. Even 2nd hand gear now seems to command top dollar,  guess in part due to the scarcity of some kit, which is just how the 2nd hand market tends to work in anything be it cars or astro gear, its worth what people will pay.

But also it's not only the fact the astro gear is expensive, as cost start to rise generally, like the recent fuel hike, then even for the average family with a couple of kids it becomes hard to justify spending a lot on any hobby, let alone those on a tighter budget.

Steve

[johninderby]

10 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

 

As to expensive hobbies try HiFi, you can pay more for a cable than the cost of a TAK for example.

Alan

Anyone fancy a AV Designhaus Derenville VPM tirntable. 🙂

Costs way more than the average house in the UK. 🙀🙀🙀

Edited February 12, 2022 by johninderby

[cajen2]

6 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

 

As to expensive hobbies try HiFi, you can pay more for a cable than the cost of a TAK for example.

Alan

Tell me about it! My late brother willed me his system....at a conservative estimate, it would cost about £20,000 to buy....😥

[cajen2]

@teoria_del_big_bang Was the forum UR, by any chance?

[Alien 13]

10 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Anyone fancy a AV Designhaus Derenville VPM tirntable. 🙂

Costs way more than the average house in the UK. 🙀🙀🙀

You can buy a basic Linn LP12 setup for around 23K if money is tight. 😋

Alan

[tomato]

At the end of the day you spend what you can comfortably afford on a hobby (and I’ve been through a few, I had an octopus as a pet many years ago) and if the hobby is of the high tech variety, it is going to limit the level of kit you acquire. I have a set up which would be considered by a lot of folks to be high end, but there is still kit out there that I have a hankering for but will never be able to afford. 
But when it is all performing as it should and I go outside and look up, that sense of wonder that I always feel doesn’t cost me a penny.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

15 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

@teoria_del_big_bang Was the forum UR, by any chance?

It was indeed, I ended up being part of the technical team giving advice, I really liked it all.
Although I loved Astro stuff back then I did not have a scope then and the time I spent on my reef I don't think I would have been able to do much astronomy, I ended up till all hours of the night then with lights out waiting to see what came up out of the rocks at night, it was amazing to watch.

Steve

[shropshire lad]

As I already had a Dslr camera and several lenses tripod and intervolometer .. to get into astrophotography all i needed was the AZ-Gti goto mount (£215) ... free software downloaded.

Later adding the wedge (for Eq), bahtinov mask, counterbalance rod and weights and laser (for poler setup) ... so still under £300 

 

[malc-c]

1 hour ago, cajen2 said:

And don't even get me started on marine reefkeeping, where even a modest 90cm tank plus equipment runs into several thousand....each fish or coral that you buy is £50-£100+ ..... and the electricity / maintenance costs a fortune too.

Just closed my small (120ltr) reef tank down after 11 years.... I stopped keeping tabs of what I spent, but even buying budget equipment it still ran into thousands... and then as others have said, you have the constant running costs of salt, dosing, test kits, food, and electricity...

In comparison, astronomy is one hobby that is more affordable for those on low income

[malc-c]

Model railways used to be a hobby that most people associated with low outlay, and granted you can still buy a basic oval of track, loco and some wagons for a couple of hundred quid.   But if you want something that is more detailed, is DCC enabled with sound, and realistic smoke, pulling a rake of Pullman coaches, then kiss goodbye to £700 +

The good thing is in most of the hobbies listed there is always a second hand market place.  Astronomy is no different, with deals form retailers like FLO, through to private sales in the classifieds.  If you take that into account then again, I don't feel astronomy is being priced out of reach of those on the low paid sector

Edited February 12, 2022 by malc-c