Changes in the Used Astro Equipment Market ?

[John]

Interesting that Rother Valley Optics are actively seeking pre-owned astro equipment:

http://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview.php?view=132883

I've noticed a gradual increase in the number of dealers that are selling used equipment. The prices asked seem generally to be somewhere between what a private seller might ask and the new retail price but presumably the dealer has VAT, their costs and possibily a limited warranty to cost in ?

The used astro market has been invaluable to me over the years and it has generally been pretty active and vibrant. I'm not suprised that dealers would like a slice of this but I can't decide whether it's a good thing, not so positive or will have a neutral impact

It does provide opportunities to part-exchange equipment which could be a positive as long as the p/ex values offered are reasonable.

I guess the car market has been structured like this for many years and it seems to work OK but the astro market is much, much smaller in comparison to that.

I'd be interested in other views on this

 

 

 

[parallaxerr]

Really interesting John. I was just wondering the other day why vendors don't do this!

FLO are great in as much as you can return stuff within 30 days but I sometimes find myself wanting to move stuff on after a couple of months. It gets really frustrating when gear doesn't shift so the ability to px is great.

Having said that, I was thinking I'd struck a balance with my gear, but this option may change that!

[Cosmic Geoff]

I bought a telescope from a dealer specializing in 2nd hand astro kit. It seemed less risky than buying on ebay. Superficial dents and marks were declared in the listing. The price was reasonable and the dealer obligingly delivered it in his van.

On the other hand, the instrument clearly had not been serviced, and I had to do some collimating and fettling to get it working properly. I am now happy with it.

[Alien 13]

Camera retailers like Wex and MPB have been doing this for years and I wouldn't buy used anywhere else...

Alan

[John]

10 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

Camera retailers like Wex and MPB have been doing this for years and I wouldn't buy used anywhere else...

Alan

For cameras and other complex items I can see the benefits of having the assurance and back up that a dealer can bring.

I've had many great deals on used astro equipment with private sellers over the years and met, or communicated with, some really nice people as part of that process though. It's been an important part of the hobby for me.

 

[Swoop1]

The PX market is very useful if you want a purchase at a lower cost than new with a bit of retailer backup. It is also useful as a last resort option for disposing of unwanted equipment that has failed to sell privately (providing of course that the sale is to fund a purchase).

I work in an independant cycle shop and we offer PX on new bike purchases. The price we offer is quite a bit less than would be realised on eBay etc as we have to factor in the labour cost of a safety check/ service, replacement part costs, factoring in the Revenuse cut of sales and of course, the businesses profit margin.

Provided the retailer is reputeable, buying used (I hate 'pre owned' or 'previously loved') should be a safe way of upgrading kit or aqcuiring at a reduced cost.

You can't beat the feel of new however....

[F15Rules]

I have been struck recently by how unpredictable the used market is. I have probably bought around 80-85% of all the astro kit I have ever owned on the used market, the vast majority of it on this site or the "other one" we all know and love .. and the odd thing on eBay (usually for selling as a last resort when the 2 main sites don't deliver me a sale). If it wasn't for this used market I would never have been able to afford most of the kit I have actually been fortunate enough to own and enjoy..and SGL in particular, as a source of advice and knowledge, freely shared, combines the best of all worlds IMO.

I do feel though, in the past 1-2 years, that it's got harder to get a fair price for items, even some high end stuff, on the used kit forums..of course, as a buyer, that can deliver bargains sometimes, but as a seller it can leave you feeling a bit disappointed, cheated even, on occasion.

On other occasions you just want to clear an item for whatever you can get, and to know that it is getting some use.

And it's an unpredictable business..I've had really nice items that took an age to sell on (even at a very good price), whereas others achieved a good price and/or sold very quickly..

With regard to retailers getting into the used market, I don't have any personal experience of this, as the retailers I have used most  (FLO and 365 Astronomy) don't, so far as I know, handle used equipment. Saying that, I have bought display or sale items at good prices via FLO and Bresser.de sites.

I am aware of a sizeable retailer that does advertise for used equipment for them to buy and resell, mainly high end refractors, Tak etc, but they also do offer a free advertising service on which the public can advertise used astro goods for sale: I think here that the benefit to the retailer is to attract traffic to their website, which of course can then lead to sales of new items too.

The only large online buyer and seller of used kit only (not new) that I know of has become more and more expensive in the past couple of years, often selling items at 80% or more of the new price..in such cases I would rather buy new if I really wanted that item, so I rarely use that supplier any more .

I personally would regret it if many retailers actively bought and sold more used kit: I enjoy looking at the sale forums when I need something, and selling on my no longer needed items too.

I would rather that the retailers concentrated (as most do now), on sourcing and selling good quality new kit, with great service before, during and after the sale, and driving innovation by acting as a sounding board for end users, so that Retailers can feed back useful market intelligence to the manufacturers.

The used forums definitely help to create demand for new goods too though, which in turn keeps a flow of more used items to help people like me gradually aspire to, and eventually acquire, better equipment.

Dave

[Stu]

I think the market is changing as more people enter the hobby who have experience of other hobbies and market places. When it was a smaller, more closed community I think prices were more stable, but now many more people are looking for bargains and negotiate harder as they may be used to doing elsewhere. I do see and regret this change.

It is noticeable how AstroBuySell's visitor numbers are steadily reducing, down from over 620k in 2013 to 549k last year. I assume the popularity of eBay and probably also selling on FaceBook and elsewhere are the reasons? I reckon that ABS could help themselves in a few ways, not least by allowing reasonable sized photos to be easily attached without having to resize them! SGL, eBay and FB are much easier in this respect.

As for retailers entering the market, I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing, although it may result in a decrease in value for private sales. Overall I think there is a benefit to having another channel to sell your kit into; I have knowingly sold a couple of times to dealers largely because they were the only takers at the time. That suited me, I got a price I was happy with and they got something they could make margin on. I do think they should offer something additional, like a limited warranty though to offset the additional cost of buying through them, much like used car dealers.

[nightfisher]

50% of my gear has been new and the other kit has come from private used market, I do feel smaller dealers selling used kit might not provide the real back up if push comes to shove with a problem, I have bought some used scopes that have been a real let down, and had no choice bit to pass this kit on again

[ronin]

20 minutes ago, Stu said:

It is noticeable how AstroBuySell's visitor numbers are steadily reducing, down from over 620k in 2013 to 549k last year. I assume the popularity of eBay and probably also selling on FaceBook and elsewhere are the reasons? I reckon that ABS could help themselves in a few ways, not least by allowing reasonable sized photos to be easily attached without having to resize them! SGL, eBay and FB are much easier in this respect.

I may look at ABSUK but since they introduced the register to contact and buy I have never bothered since to buy anything. I wonder if that is part of the reason for the reduction in numbers. In my case I just cannot be bothered to hand out assorted information again. Also sure I have seen a "topic" asking if your account had been disabled and so you are unable to access. If so that could mean a number have not bothere to renew.

Sometimes it is a small change that just tips the balance and to me it was the idea that you had to register.

[Stu]

Just now, ronin said:

I may look at ABSUK but since they introduced the register to contact and buy I have never bothered since to buy anything. I wonder if that is part of the reason for the reduction in numbers. In my case I just cannot be bothered to hand out assorted information again. Also sure I have seen a "topic" asking if your account had been disabled and so you are unable to access. If so that could mean a number have not bothere to renew.

Sometimes it is a small change that just tips the balance and to me it was the idea that you had to register.

I think you give far more information with other platforms, so I was quite happy to register. Can't really remember doing it or it being a big deal.

[FLO]

2 hours ago, parallaxerr said:

I was just wondering the other day why vendors don't do this!

FLO are great in as much as you can return stuff within 30 days but I sometimes find myself wanting to move stuff on after a couple of months. It gets really frustrating when gear doesn't shift so the ability to px is great.

It is something we are occasionally asked for. 

2 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

Camera retailers like Wex and MPB have been doing this for years and I wouldn't buy used anywhere else...

I think London Camera Exchange were first with PX/secondhand sales via their stores. (I used to work for them, many Moons ago!). 

2 hours ago, Swoop1 said:

Provided the retailer is reputeable, buying used (I hate 'pre owned' or 'previously loved') should be a safe way of upgrading kit or aqcuiring at a reduced cost.

I might be wrong but I think 'pre-owned' came into use when someone took a supplier to court after discovering the 'secondhand' item he purchased had multiple previous owners. A new term was then required, one that doesn't imply the purchaser is the second owner. 

1 hour ago, F15Rules said:

I personally would regret it if many retailers actively bought and sold more used kit: I enjoy looking at the sale forums when I need something, and selling on my no longer needed items too.

I would rather that the retailers concentrated (as most do now), on sourcing and selling good quality new kit, with great service before, during and after the sale, and driving innovation by acting as a sounding board for end users, so that Retailers can feed back useful market intelligence to the manufacturers.

That is how it should work  

1 hour ago, Stu said:

As for retailers entering the market, I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing, although it may result in a decrease in value for private sales. Overall I think there is a benefit to having another channel to sell your kit into; I have knowingly sold a couple of times to dealers largely because they were the only takers at the time. That suited me, I got a price I was happy with and they got something they could make margin on. I do think they should offer something additional, like a limited warranty though to offset the additional cost of buying through them, much like used car dealers.

I agree, if a retailer offers secondhand pre-owned  kit then they should offer additional benefits. I.e. a service, a warranty and a means of displaying items so people can kick the tyres. 

1 hour ago, nightfisher said:

50% of my gear has been new and the other kit has come from private used market, I do feel smaller dealers selling used kit might not provide the real back up if push comes to shove with a problem, I have bought some used scopes that have been a real let down, and had no choice bit to pass this kit on again

You are probably right, I am sure there are some traders who source stock incognito and fly under the Trading Standards radar. 

I am unsure what is best. I think SGL's buy/sell section functions best if retailers and traders are excluded (FLO too). Imagine if FLO scanned the board every week and purchased everything desirable! Where would that leave everyone else! And people often offer items at generously low prices to help beginners get off to a good start, that wouldn't work if traders and retailers snap them up for resale at higher prices. 

But ultimately we exist to serve the astro community so if enough people ask to buy/sell pre-owned kit at FLO then we would offer that service. 

Thank-you for starting this discussion, John. I will be watching with great interest  

Steve 

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, FLO said:

Imagine if FLO scanned the board every week and purchased everything desirable!

That's the biggest problem I think. If you did it as a reactive thing i.e. People choose to sell used kit through FLO for the service and the fact that you would offer additional benefits plus marketing to a wider audience, then that could work well.

Where I struggle is the thought of retailers or dealers spending their time and resource, perhaps with automated searches etc hoovering (Dysoning, vacuuming, whatever it's called these days ) up all the good used kit and selling it on at higher prices. That doesn't seem to be a benefit to the community.

I also struggle when I see ads on ABS for dealers selling used kit, some of which which is quite likely sourced from ABS. That just seems odd to me!

[bottletopburly]

13 minutes ago, ronin said:

I may look at ABSUK but since they introduced the register to contact and buy I have never bothered since to buy anything. I wonder if that is part of the reason for the reduction in numbers. In my case I just cannot be bothered to hand out assorted information again. Also sure I have seen a "topic" asking if your account had been disabled and so you are unable to access. If so that could mean a number have not bothere to renew.

Sometimes it is a small change that just tips the balance and to me it was the idea that you had to register.

The register to buy and contact  was just a measure against fraud , I look to see when someone registered , if they have a forum alias , if they’ve sold items in the past  , just a piece of mind  thing  I have no problem registering

[F15Rules]

26 minutes ago, FLO said:

But ultimately we exists to serve the astro community so if enough people ask to buy/sell pre-owned kit at FLO then we would offer that service. 

Thank-you for starting this discussion, John. I will be watching with great interest  

Steve 

Thanks Steve. FLO were to offer this service in the future then I for one would take it seriously and have no qualms with ordering anything, in the knowledge that on past experience the item would have been checked and passed as fit for (re) sale.

Dave

[Tim]

4 hours ago, FLO said:

And people often offer items at generously low prices to help beginners get off to a good start, that wouldn't work if traders and retailers snap them up for resale at higher prices. 

This is one of the most annoying things, especially when the trader actively conceals their identity as we have seen on numerous occasions.

[Timebandit]

 

I am not sure this is a good idea or not?

I suppose buying used from a reputable dealer has the benefit of the confidence the used items you are buying is decent quality,and if not you have some sort of back up/redress.

But this could also push up the prices on the private used buyers market. As obviously the private buyer will be looking for a price more in line with a retailer sellers used item.

Personally speaking probably 90% of my astro gear has been purchased used. Luckily I don't think to date I have had any really bad experience buying through private sellers, most seem decent people, maybe us the astro community are just more helpful and honest people than some other used type markets?.  

What I do know if I had not purchased used privately from some decent sellers then I would not have some of the top tier kit I have (in my eyes anyway). I certainly would not have my Orion Optics UK 14"  1/10. A equinox 120ed and some great eyepieces including Televue and Pentax. So private sellers and buying has worked for me? ?

 

 

[FLO]

50 minutes ago, Tim said:

This is one of the most annoying things, especially when the trader actively conceals their identity as we have seen on numerous occasions.

Another annoying thing, at least for me, is when a trader says to a potential customer "Oh, no need to worry, it was bought from FLO and warranties are transferrable". 

The trader saying that does not make it true, warranties are often not transferrable and when they are we need to know who the original purchaser is. 

(We have nothing against an actual FLO customer assuring somebody it was bought from FLO, we take that as a compliment). 

Steve 

[Axunator]

5 hours ago, nightfisher said:

I do feel smaller dealers selling used kit might not provide the real back up if push comes to shove with a problem, I have bought some used scopes that have been a real let down, and had no choice bit to pass this kit on again

Second that. I recently bought a second (third? fourth?) hand C9.25 from a rather well known UK vendor specializing in used astro & photo gear. Before making the purchase, I emailed and asked if there are any known issues with the scope, none declared (I got a reply immediately). Once the scope arrived, I noticed immediately that the secondary holder was loose, letting the secondary rotate and wiggle in the corrector plate, making permanent collimation impossible. I let them know that I'm not happy (first politely, later more strictly but still in a civilized way) and asked how we should proceed correcting this. Now it's 2.5 weeks, no reply whatsoever. Needless to say,  I'm not gonna buy anything from them, ever again.

Thanks to good folks at Cloudy Nights, I got really great and friendly advice of how I can try to fix the problem myself. I considered returning the scope, however, they never even replied to my return request form, so I considered it too big risk to courier the scope back to UK at my own expense, with no guarantee of getting a dime back... 

Come to think of it, a fellow amateur astronomer with reasonable track record of posts on the forums like SGL and CN is probably 1000% more reliable source of used equipment than a second-hand dealer like that.

Apologies for the rant, just a reminder that just because the seller is a dealer doesn't mean you are backed up in case of problems, when there's no official manufacturer warranty. Dealers selling new astro stuff have always given first-rate service.

[alanjgreen]

If the second hand (pre-owned) prices charged by Telescope House are anything to go by, then this will push up second hand prices

- As a seller then I guess that thats ok.  

- As a buyer then it seems that it is not ok. At least Telescope House offer a 3 month warranty...

I think retailers have no business in the second hand market! It aint broken and them jumping in won't improve it if prices go up and the market is killed off. Unless thats the plan, move used prices closer to new prices and then sell them new!

No. This is an expensive hobby and squeezing money out of second hand will in the end only reduce the number of people within the hobby...

My reflective view of 2017 is that used prices have softened and prices seem lower than 12 months ago. There are bargains to be had!

- I would encourage all potential buyers to post wanted ad's stating clearly what you are prepared to pay and leave sellers to chew it over

What other hobby can you get back 60-70% of new price? Although, I still see plenty of sellers in "dream land" wanting even more (The number of second hand Lunt LS60 with sellers wanting £200-£300 less than new price (>85%) is quite astonishing!)

I'll get off my soap box now...

[spillage]

As many have stated, if the second hand market was inflated due to dealers trying to make more money by flooding the market with inflated prices then I too would not have virtually none of my gear.

I will continue to buy and sell kit on the second hand markets and look at 60% of the original cost or there abouts. I think trade in as with cars may be an easier option for some but you know you will loose out, ebay for most is a last resort (due to fees), and the for sale forums like the one here and abs will always remain a favourite at least for me.

[Moonshane]

The simple answer is sell or don't sell, buy or don't buy. If you want X for your widget and a retail reseller offers X-y then again sell or don't sell.  I am pretty relaxed about it really.with optics unless dropped or inappropriately cleaned.

I buy mainly used and have rarely had a deal go bad. Not much can go badly wrong 

[Paz]

It will be of particular benefit to those who don't have the time to put into selling or who need cash from a sale or who just want a hassle free sale.

I've sold  a car to a well known company who buy used cars and although the price I got was low it was made transparent and was absolutely worth the time and hassle saved (to me at least).

Overall it will remain a free market and demand will interact with prices and supply so I'm ok with the idea.

[pete_l]

On 12/19/2017 at 20:29, spillage said:

I think trade in as with cars may be an easier option for some but you know you will loose out

I have wondered why there isn't such a thing (or that it isn't publicised). ISTM that there is a proportion of the amateur astronomy community who's hobby is closer to trying-out stuff than long-term ownership. Though with the number of clear nights in the UK, the two have many similarities

 

It could be a way to induce some customer loyalty: offering a part-exchange scheme within the first X years after a piece had been bought new. It might even induce some customers to take a chance on different / novel products, rather than opting for the "safe" solutions
 

[Alan White]

Many dealers sell used kit already.

RVO were selling used at IAS as were others, so it’s here already and has been for some time.

Fully agree that used prices higher than 60% or so of new then leave me not buying and going for new for the warranty and the newness. 

You may be right, the markets changing, but that’s not just Astro kit.

Buying from some dealers is no guarantee of any additional checks, service of kit or worthy warranty.  I had a scope from a well known used retailer and is was needing fettling, but described as mint. 

I think FLO would be a very reliable used source and they would check and describe kit fully, but it would distract from being such a good retailer of new kit.