Skywatcher ED120, some musings

[nightfisher]

This is a bit awkward, but trying to do an honest appraisal of this OTA,

First up its a very well made scope, very good optics and a stock but perfectly good focuser, decent 9x50 finder scope and has a rather nice 2" 90 degree star diagonal as supplied complete with large Ali case.

This scope has a pleasant colour scheme of white and black, though plain white with black tube rings would have been nicer to me, refractors just look right in white 

I bought this expecting views free from false colour, this is well corrected in CA and spherical aberration, the only time i see false colour is when viewing Luna low on the horizon, to be expected i guess. Luna views are extremely good when viewing detail with a moon at a decent altitude, though getting sharp focus seems to be something you have to "tease" in rather than getting the "snap to focus" that a long F/L decent achro gives.

I have not had much of a chance to view the planets due to them being poorly placed, however at Mukar Jupiter gave super and yes i really do mean superb views, in moments of good seeing, with the GRS being plain to see and an eclipse of one of the Jovian moons  

Moving to more distant objects this is where it becomes a bit of a let down, but not a deal breaker for me, I had purchased this with the recommendations that it would be an ideal all round scope, but with 120mm aperture it does not really show deep sky, indeed from home it is a waste of time due to light pollution that seems to be ever increasing, galaxies are just not visible, though from a dark site with good seeing i guess this would improve, but then if searching for distant galaxies is your thing then a 12" or larger newt is going to be a better option, some of the messier s are very well resolved in this 120, M45 with 2" 42mm EP is stunning, fitting the whole cluster in the field of view and other open clusters being very easy to resolve, i cant comment on Globs as not had the chance to view any with this scope, though i see no reason why it wont perform well.

I have viewed, some double stars, again the scope gives a good account of itself, even allowing me to image Polaris with 1000D at prime focus and the trapezium in M42 is very clearly defined, with a hint of a 5th member of this tiny cluster being seen.

My overall impression has been some what mixed, this may be down to "forum hype" for want of a better expression, with many members singing the praise of these OTA`s, maybe i was just expecting a little to much, and have to accept that end of day its a 120 and can only show what any decent 120 can show, this was my most expensive astro purchase coupled with buying a new to me mount to get the best from it, a used but truly excellent Giro II (thanks again John, your a star)

A few of you good people that stop to read this may be expecting me to end up selling this true to my usual form, and while i admit to suffering some negative feelings over the purchase, I have no plans to sell this OTA, for a start what would i replace it with, a decent Maksutov would be nice, but no one makes a Mak with the correct aperture and focal length to suit my needs, so it looks like myself and the 120 are in it for the long haul, hopefully as time goes by i will start to feel more of an "affinity" with this scope

Thanks for reading 

 

[iPeace]

Thanks for sharing. It's good to keep questioning whether you're on the right path and very generous of you to express this - even if it drives some of your friends here a bit nuts in their desire to see you sorted once and for all.

I had mine for less than a year. It's entirely faultless, even has a Moonlite focuser. I passed it on to an even happier home because I knew it would not be practical enough for me to use this year due to size and weight - and it's no use me speculating any further in the future.

Even while I was enjoying it I did wonder whether I was seeing what everyone else was seeing. Yes it could do a bit more than a TV85, but - apparently - nothing I personally couldn't do without. Safe in the assumption that it's as good as it gets, certainly for the money, it freed my mind to ponder what that meant for me.

I added a cheap, very decent little Mak and am impressed with what it does for the outlay. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I was to try a newt, collimation and all, I would feel the same. Time will tell.

[ronin]

I guess that the term "good all round scope" can be misinterrpreted. Eventually it seems people take it to mean excellent at everything, maybe it more means bad at nothing. The old phase "Jack of all trades, master of none" is I guess more appropriate.

It is after al a scope of just under 5" aperture, 127mm is 5", were you thinking 5" at purchase or 120mm at purchase? The light gather of a standard 200P is close to 2.75 more.

It is I believe a doublet at the end of the day. May have a nice bit of ED glass in it but still doublet I believe. Unlessthe definition of APO is changed and redefined that has to be kept in mind.

Suppose the question is "Would I have one?" Actually not sure, nice and a reasonable aperture but enough questions to me to make me hesitate, think I would opt for a slightly smaller ES triplet at the end of the day.

Edited May 1, 2017 by ronin

[Stu]

The 120ED was recommended highly Jules largely because you had been hunting around for ages for a Lunar imaging and visual, trying multiple scopes, none of which you liked for various reasons.

The 120 is an excellent ED doublet, visually apochromatic and a great all rounder scope. John seems to find plenty to look at with his, but no scope is going to beat light pollution, so get it to a dark site and it will perform very nicely on deep sky objects. If you want more aperture, buy a dob.

I do wonder whether you should just sell it and buy something else as it appears you are not particularly happy with the purchase. The 102mm Mak seems to bring you more pleasure currently and that's what it is all about really.

[Gasman]

Don't underestimate a120mm scope? I have the 120mm Espirit scope and pleased as Punch with it and regularly  achieve quite detailed spectra with this, admittedly it's an Apo but my little ED80 is a cracker too.

Cheers

Steve

[chiltonstar]

I have a copy of a classic Messier objects book (Mallas and Kremer), which gives an idea of what you can see deep sky with a small refractor (100mm achro in the case of the authors, your 120 ED should go considerably lower) and Sue French gives another view in her excellent book. But, as indicated above, you need a dark site and an excellent evening!

Chris

 

[Alan White]

Jules

Great honest review of how you find this scope. 

The 'forum hype' comment made me smile, I think there is an element of truth in that in any forum on any subject.

You look to be on a long journey of gear purchasing to find 'the one' and the 120 is perhaps not it for you.

I have been doing similar and find that no one scope hits the spot, the compromise to find one scope is at a cost, if you are not happy at that cost, then it's not 'the one' for you.

From other posting you have made over time I believe the light pollution and weather at your location is probably the real issue for you to be honest, not the instrument being used.

 

[Timebandit]

 

I must say I find my 120ed equinox an excellent scope for being a 120mm refractor. IMO for the price point I do not think you will find anything better. 

Obviously when it comes to DSO then it is all about aperture (hope the dob mob don't see this in a frac post, otherwise we told you so?). But aperture together with a dark site will be the only thing IMO that will give you the Woow experience. In my opinion if you really want to go into truly DSO then get yourself a big dob also

I have a 120mm frac and a 14" dob to cover lunar, planetary mainly with the refractor and the aperture with the dob to cover DSO. If you wish to get the most out of this hobby I consider two scopes to cover these is the best way to go in my opinion. And as always with those faint fuzzys then great seeing conditions and dark sky's are what is needed to make those objects ping to the eye's 

[YKSE]

As to all round or not, much depending on your sky, 120ED will certainy not go deeper than 159 Mak you had for faint fuzzies.. Maybe you should try with Messiers and some bright NGCs to see how dark is your sky. If it's too bright (say you can't see 1/3 of the Messir), NO aperture will get much better under those skies.

[laudropb]

Hi Jules. I bought a 120ED at the same time as you made your purchase and I can understand where you are coming from. Given the fact that the poor winter season meant I have few opportunities to use it I have been saving judgement on its capabilities. I have had some lovely sessions on the Moon and Jupiter and compared the views with those given by my 127 Mak. I have to say that I felt that there was very little between the performance of both, but I slightly prefer the crisper views given by the 120, in my eyes anyway.

I was lucky enough to be able to use a 120 ED under truely dark skies at Astrofarm in France. This was mounted on an AZ/EQ6 mount that was permanently set up and perfectly polar aligned. Over 6 nights I managed to find 61 Messier objects and a similar number of DSOs from the NGC list. Most of the views were not spectacular. Just little grey fuzzies, but that is to be expected given the aperture. What I did get was the best views of Saturn I have ever had as well as lovely Lunar and Jupiter sessions. It showed me what the scope was capable of under the right conditions. Like you my observing at home is blighted by LP. DSOs, apart from the brighter ones are not an option but DSO hunting is not my thing anyway. Everyone will have their own views of a telescopes capabilities, but I am sure I will enjoy many years of viewing with the ED 120 and that is the important thing to me. Perhaps it will grow on you. I hope so, but at the end of the day it is your personal opinion that matters and your decision on whether it's a keeper or not.

[nightfisher]

Gentlemen, i did state that i would not be selling this, that i am in for the long haul 

I do feel its my location that is holding back my viewing pleasure with this instrument

[John]

Very honest and interesting report and appraisal of this scope Jules - thanks for posting it

I'm left wondering if your reactions are perhaps more a comment on your current feelings towards the hobby though, rather than on the instrument ?

I've no doubts that the ED120 is, optically at least, one of the finest near-5" refractors available at any price (having now compared mine directly with much, much more expensive instruments) so I don't believe the scope is hyped up at all.

Maybe though, what you are looking for cannot be delivered by any 5" class scope, what ever the cost

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by John

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, John said:

Very honest and interesting report and appraisal of this scope Jules - thanks for posting it

I'm left wondering if your reactions are perhaps more a comment on your current feelings towards the hobby though, rather than on the instrument ?

I've no doubts that the ED120 is, optically at least, one of the finest near-5" refractors available at any price (having now compared mine directly with much, much more expensive instruments) so I don't believe the scope is hyped up at all.

Maybe though, what you are looking for cannot be delivered by any 5" class scope, what ever the cost

 

Very well said John.

[Stu]

25 minutes ago, nightfisher said:

Gentlemen, i did state that i would not be selling this, that i am in for the long haul 

I do feel its my location that is holding back my viewing pleasure with this instrument

Jules, you frequently post short, negative comments about the 120 which give the impression you are not happy with it.

The skies have been pretty rubbish lately for all of us, it is a matter of making the most of what opportunities there are. Most of the time my Tak does not perform as well as it is capable of, and from my back garden I can see comparatively little even with a C925. I focus on what I can see, rather than what I can't.

[Cjg]

Interesting comment that your ED120' doesn't show deep sky Jules. I've managed 103 of the Messier Objects in my 76mm 'frac and some of the brighter objects in "Hidden Treasures."  I'd echo what others have said about taking it to dark skies, perhaps a star party or a local to you Astro Society?  It' really does make all the difference!

Good luck, whatever you choose to do.

[JeremyS]

4 hours ago, nightfisher said:

so it looks like myself and the 120 are in it for the long haul

Good to hear, nightfisher. I'm not sure how long you've had this scope, but you need to use it over a long period to conclude how well it performs.

As with most things in life, a telescope is a compromise, but really getting to know how this scope performs under a variety of conditions is essential.

I have had months of poor seeing for imaging with my C11 - much worse than normal. Same with my Tak FS102. But persevering allows those really good nights for seeing, transparency, or whatever to emerge. 

Jeremy

Edited May 1, 2017 by JeremyS

[Moonshane]

I like mine!

 

[nightfisher]

1 hour ago, John said:

 

I'm left wondering if your reactions are perhaps more a comment on your current feelings towards the hobby though, rather than on the instrument ?

 

 

John, where in my post do i make any comment or quip relating to the hobby, this is the second time you have suggested that my interest/enthusiasm is waning (yes good memory), i can assure you that i am still just as keen on the hobby 

[iPeace]

[Stu]

1 hour ago, nightfisher said:

John, where in my post do i make any comment or quip relating to the hobby, this is the second time you have suggested that my interest/enthusiasm is waning (yes good memory), i can assure you that i am still just as keen on the hobby 

Jules, your posts are largely about how poor the weather and light pollution is rather than anything else, so I'm not surprised at John's comments.

You have a long time interest in Lunar imaging and observing, and have two scopes which are ideal for this. It is an area of astro which is largely unaffected by light pollution so you should be free to enjoy it. I'm not sure why suddenly DSO observing has become a requirement, and a reason to criticise the 120ED?

Your expressed desire was to get to a one scope solution because you were tired of having multiple scopes around the house which took up valuable storage space without being used. You now have about the only scope which fits the bill but it doesn't seem to fill you with joy.

I loved my wobbly 16" Sumerian (  ) but knew that I would not use it frequently enough to do it justice. It gave me (amongst others) four fabulous nights at SGL10 where I saw more galaxies than I had in the previous 15 years, then not so long after I sold it for what I paid for it. Nothing wrong with the scope as far as I'm concerned.

I probably bore people with my Tak talk. I could be thinking "but a 120ED would give me better resolution, am I missing out?" What I actually know is that it is the scope I have used most in my life, and is super versatile in terms of solar and astro observing, so get on and enjoy it.

I won't apologise for saying the above, whilst I know it may appear a little on the 'tough' side, I would just love to see you have a scope that makes you happy and allows you to crack on and observe/image in an enjoyable fashion.

[Peter Drew]

Refreshing to have an "honesty" themed thread, here's my contribution. I'm fortunate to have been observing longer than most with access to a wider range of apertures and designs of telescopes than most. My opinions are based on this and very much influenced by my current age. I wouldn't now purchase a small refractor of any type, I like their crisp textbook star images but I'm not into double stars or imaging. Struggling to see much DSO detail doesn't satisfy me, taking one to a dark site improves things immensely but I'd sooner take a 8" Dob for that. My 102mm Vixen flourite and 127mm F15 triplet are probably my least used telescopes. I have very large binoscopes for wide field views with good light grasp and have an incoming 80ED to pair with another to form a rich field binoscope. These days my eyesight is such that I seem to need a much larger aperture to see planetary detail as well as the younger keen eyed observers do, if the seeing conditions don't suit a large telescope I find something else to do. Happily, to provide a balance, nothing beats a refractor for solar observation.   

 

[Mark at Beaufort]

Jules I would say that the scope looks really good and because its a quality refractor it will give excellent views of the Sun, Moon, Planets and Double Stars when the skies are kind and dark enough. I have used many varieties of scopes and designs over the years and found an APO frac to give the cleanest views of the objects that you enjoy the most.

OK I now only have Newtonians but my main interest is DSOs hence the 12" Dob.

I know you will persevere with this scope because it will provide the best views of the Moon - your main interest.

[nightfisher]

3 hours ago, Stu said:

 

Jules, your posts are largely about how poor the weather and light pollution is rather than anything else, so I'm not surprised at John's comments................No my posts are not largely about LP and the weather, but i agree just recently things have been bad, the factory with its growing floodlight army, and new houses being built on what was greenbelt, this is having a detrimental effect on what i can view.

 

You have a long time interest in Lunar imaging and observing, and have two scopes which are ideal for this. It is an area of astro which is largely unaffected by light pollution so you should be free to enjoy it. I'm not sure why suddenly DSO observing has become a requirement, and a reason to criticise the 120ED?............Quite right, my main interest has and will remain Luna and planets, its not wrong to want to view other objects in the night sky when there is no moon, purely for the record my post was not aimed at criticizing the ED120, more a case of pointing out that if you live in a city or built up environment that has bad LP then all but forget about hunting deep sky, like i said in this case a 12" or larger Newt would be a much better tool  

 

Tak talk............ha ha that could be a broadband or mobile phone provider 

 

Your expressed desire was to get to a one scope solution because you were tired of having multiple scopes around the house which took up valuable storage space without being used. You now have about the only scope which fits the bill but it doesn't seem to fill you with joy....................Mission accomplished, good people of the forum your self included put forward good suggestions and the 120ED came out on top, i took the advice and acted on it, should a scope "fill you with joy" or just serve a useful purpose? the 120ED serves a useful purpose .

 

I won't apologise for saying the above, whilst I know it may appear a little on the 'tough' side, I would just love to see you have a scope that makes you happy and allows you to crack on and observe/image in an enjoyable fashion...................No need to apologize, i have 2 scopes that allow me to crack on and do what i enjoy

 

My original post has come across as a slighting of the 120, maybe i should have posted it differently, lied about its qualities, posted fictitious reports of mopping up deep sky objects by the dozen, but i chose to post its good points and some points that are restricted by local environment, if a new comer to the hobby is looking to spend a large sum on a telescope and takes a fancy to one of these, should he/she not be aware that from a poor location this scope will be restricted to brighter objects.

 

Stu, just for the record i have replied to this post of yours in detail as you took time to type up a fairly detailed reply, i felt some points needed a more detailed answer, and i hope this post is not taken in a wrong context  

[johnfosteruk]

Great review Jules, I do hope you get that affinity over time, get out to the dark sites and I'm sure it'll come into its own with DSO, and enjoy those crisp lunar views at home mate.

[Moonshane]