When you spot a problem with someone else's kit.

[Adam J]

Over the last two years I have taken an interest in optical testing and performance. My goal being that I am able to assess the performance of my own scopes and be able to correctly evaluate new purchases. However, as my understanding has improved to a level when I am confident in spotting most common and even some less common issues I have inevitably started to spot optical issues with other people's equipment, often serious issues that should result in the scope being returned and replaced. 

I take the view that I am not the scope police and it's not my job to run about telling people that their optics are rubbish, at least not unless they are asking for an opinion. Indicating that they are already aware something might be wrong. 

The flip side of this is that I have recently spotted a couple of clear cases of bad astigmatism (such that the scope will never focus correctly) in images proudly posted by new forum users. Their new scopes being in warrenty now but inevitably by the time they are experienced enough to spot the issues themselves it will be too late to return it. The issue is that I don't want to take someone who is happy with what they have posted and effectively make them unhappy and potentially discourage them.  

So what would you do? 

Adam

[arrayschism]

It I had problem optics, I'd rather know than not and have the chance of doing something about it before it was too late.

The devil in the detail might be finding a way of delivering the bad news to someone in a diplomatic way 😁

[Kinch]

Send a private message - most will appreciate getting sound advice. If they don't want any input from an experienced member - nobody else need know and nobody (on either side) gets red faced.  As said above - making the message sound like it is coming from a friend - rather than someone interfering is the key.....but worth doing more often than not I would imagine.

[PadrePeace]

Certainly a tricky one AdamJ. I

I would personally want to know if there were quantifiable issues and not just guess work. And there in lays the issue.

I’ve asked for and received this kind of support on this and the CN forum in the past. The quality and accuracy of that advice has varied and ultimately it has to weighed up by the recipient. 

The risk is always that you get well meaning amateurs ‘scaring the horses’ which leads to more issues than just a scope problem. 

I’m convinced that a poster’s reputation will precede them so listen to those you feel or know by reputation you can trust. 

Personally, I’d take your inputs all day long for the reasons I listed above. Others need to see how they feel and go from there. 
 

offer an opinion and wait....

[niallk]

Ignorance is bliss 😆

I had someone come over to me at my 1st star party, who had a brief glance through my scope (15" dob), asked me why on earth I'd bought that kind of scope, and said "well as long as you're happy with the views..." with a derisive tone.

I felt f--- you: if you can't be pleasant, say nothing and keep to yourself.  Everyone else I met that night was welcoming and friendly thankfully.

Now: if I had a scope with pinched optics or poorly collimated and this was obvious - and there was a good chance of improving the views with a little tweak to the setup, then yes I'd welcome the helpful comment.

If I appear happy, and haven't asked for a diagnosis, personally leave me happy in my ignorance... I can't simply drive to OOUK or John Nichol to drop off a mirror for refiguring, being based in Ireland.  To be honest I have never really observed through anyone else's scope - maybe because I don't want to find out what I'm missing;) I have had a glance through a 20", and another peep thru a nice 16": I just enjoyed the generous offer to view through them.  I certainly didn't even try to evaluate zones and turned edges after a feed of cans of beer at the star party 🤣😂 

Edited April 7, 2021 by niallk

[Corncrake]

On 07/04/2021 at 13:22, Adam J said:

So what would you do?

oooh what a dilemma,

you are liable to turn a newly found pleasure, perhaps even a newly found pleasure shared with a young family, into a continuing nightmare for some unsuspecting soul,

I think I would only do it to those who post a pic asking for thoughts, opinions, advice etc., on it.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Corncrake

[Jonny_H]

I would certainly welcome any comments. Being fairly new to the hobby I, probably like most newbies, may not necessarily spot an issue or if something is wrong assuming it os down to lack of experience etc... perhaps private message the individuals in question. I am sure they will welcome the pointers.

[wulfrun]

Difficult decision, PM is almost certainly the way to go. Worded diplomatically, ask if the scope is new etc. If it were me, I'd rather know than not. Being quite a newbie to practical astronomy, I'm happy to accept that most folk on here know more than I do and I'd always welcome constructive criticism, observations etc.

If I were to receive such a PM, it is my choice to engage or ignore, so it's down to me. At least with a PM I wouldn't feel that half the forum was snickering (not that I think that would actually be so).

[scotty38]

I’ve not posted many pictures, in fact just one I think, but yep let me know if I’m in the club please 😀

[Dave61]

If it were me that knew about it then I'd send the person a polite PM saying what might be wrong, as I'd hope some one would let me know that way too.

[Dinglem]

Adam, all of us started in this hobby with little or no knowledge of what we were doing or what to expect. I look back at those first images I produced and remember how pleased I was with them, looking at them now they weren't very good, mainly because it took me ages to learn to collimate my newt properly. At least I could fiddle with my scope to get round stars. If I'd bought a frac I'd have assumed it was something I was doing wrong if the stars were funny shapes. Also in these strange times even the cheap end of the market isn't cheap anymore so a polite PM would most likely be appreciated.

[callisto]

6 minutes ago, Dinglem said:

looking at them now they weren't very good

Yeah, but like you said, when you first processed them you were well chuffed, and better images like everything else comes with practice and patience

[Paul M]

 

I generally only post my images, such as they are, in the monthly chat thread. There's mostly only me and a couple of others there anyway and I wouldn't want people to think I was presenting my images as anything but a record of my efforts and maybe a tale about whatever problem beset that particular session!

So no one need worry about my gear. I try not to 

When it stops being fun, Stop!

[neil phillips]

Hi Adam. Telescopes can be like guitars. Hit and miss. Although that is a little exaggerated. As there is often a certain amount of consistency between models. Variation is a unpopular view for buyers, as it creates paranoia and uncertainty. Where there should be joy and consistency. Its also a unpopular view for sellers who rely on consistency for faith in there products to the consumer. Your question is a difficult one for the reasons you outlined. You may also be setting yourself up for hundreds of uncertain emails from uncertain buyers. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by neil phillips

[pete_l]

It's a

20 hours ago, Adam J said:

I take the view that I am not the scope police

It's a dilemma.

On the one hand, some people may welcome the voice of experience - while others will be hostile to the implied criticism.

On the other hand, if they do return it as faulty and the supplier then sends it back "no fault found", what  happens next? "Oy! I took your advice and now I've spent 2 times delivery charges - what are you going to do about it?"

If it is successfully replaced, doesn't that just mean that the next punter will receive the duff 'scope, instead?

I think the only practical solution is to create an "advice" page or website. One where common faults are exemplified and descriptions of the what - how - why are given, along with example images of what a good version of that particular telescope would produce. However, there are already plenty of websites that contain this sort of information, would another one make any difference?

Edited April 8, 2021 by pete_l

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Hi Adam,

Personally having invested a significant amount into this hobby I would want to know whether new to the hobby or not.

And I would go further than that in that I would welcome a service I could send my images off for an analysis, at a reasonable cost if that's what it takes (people will now tell me I can already do this).
Only issue I would have with a 3rd party service like this if it did cost is whether they would find issues and then offer a repair at significant cost, very much like some dodgy garages used to do with your car 🙂 
So for me your offer to send your trained opinion would be welcomed - I cannot speak for everyone.

It's a bit like going to the doctors, the news you get may not be what you wanted to hear but in most cases it allows you to put things right, and often hearing that it is treatable is very welcome news rather than carrying on thinking it is you that is the fault.
 

On a really good Marine Aquarium forum I used to be part of they had various elected "experts" in certain aspects of the hobby, in addition to Moderators and Administrators that people could ask questions and even be mentored if new to the hobby. So one or two may be great on fish, others corals, others water maintenance, filters etc and so on.
I did this for quite a while until various things led me to leave the hobby (usual work commitments) and it really worked well.

I am not going suggest we have this on the website as it does impose on the "experts" as it would take up quite a bit of their time and needs a fair level of commitment, but something along those lines would be great.

Anyway, after that ramble I would say generally if you are willing to get involved to say something. If they decide not to take your advice that's fine, but in addition others may see the thread as well and think "Oh my images look very similar" and so more than the OP may benefit.

Steve 

[Richie092]

I understand your (OP) hesitance to offer your opinion but I come from the camp that advice is always welcome, I don't have to take or act on it but it is always nice to have. Especially from someone who knows what they are talking about so feel free to comment on anything I post.

Also, there are so many setbacks/pitfalls/tear jerkers in this hobby that one more from you won't really hurt anyone lol.

 

[cfinn]

I think it would be great if there was some kind of online tool where you could post your images and it could automatically diagnose what kind of aberrations are present in your image and suggestions as to whether it can be fixed easily (e.g. collimation, coma corrector, field flattener spacing etc.) vs something needing repair or professional adjustment. Could be very tricky to implement, but I could be tempted to give it a go if it does not exist already. Just as a proof of concept. It would need a large sample of images labelled with the issue(s) present + examples with no issues, several hundred at least to be able to train a convolutional neural network which could do the job adequately enough.

In general I think advice would be welcomed by most, but via a PM rather than on a forum for everyone to see (unless specifically asked for). It's always worth going through all the less sinister possibilities first as well, before jumping to the conclusion that the telescope needs to be replaced or sent back for repair.

[Peter_D]

Interesting discussion and a bit of a dilemma. Weighing things up, I'd be inclined to tell the owner if I knew for certain the scope is still under warranty. 

[Peter_D]

21 hours ago, niallk said:

Ignorance is bliss 😆

I had someone come over to me at my 1st star party, who had a brief glance through my scope (15" dob), asked me why on earth I'd bought that kind of scope, and said "well as long as you're happy with the views..." with a derisive tone.

I felt f--- you: if you can't be pleasant, say nothing and keep to yourself.  Everyone else I met that night was welcoming and friendly thankfully.

Now: if I had a scope with pinched optics or poorly collimated and this was obvious - and there was a good chance of improving the views with a little tweak to the setup, then yes I'd welcome the helpful comment.

If I appear happy, and haven't asked for a diagnosis, personally leave me happy in my ignorance... I can't simply drive to OOUK or John Nichol to drop off a mirror for refiguring, being based in Ireland.  To be honest I have never really observed through anyone else's scope - maybe because I don't want to find out what I'm missing;) I have had a glance through a 20", and another peep thru a nice 16": I just enjoyed the generous offer to view through them.  I certainly didn't even try to evaluate zones and turned edges after a feed of cans of beer at the star party 🤣😂 

I'm originally from Ireland so I know the exact word we all call this: begrudgery. 

[Alkaid]

Having spotted the problem with someone's scope, I would...

a) Tell them if I knew them / conversed with them a lot.

b) Not tell them if I did not know them and they haven't asked for mine / others opinion.  

c) If I saw one of the many "what do you think of my image / how can I improve it" threads, I may respond to that as it's a direct question.  But I would do it gently..."bit of astigmatism there, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to tell you how I arrived at that conclusion" etc.

[iapa]

On 07/04/2021 at 13:22, Adam J said:

 

So what would you do? 

Adam

I would want to know. If a recognised member, would then look into their comments, if relatively new member would probably be less inclined to implement their solution

[Alkaid]

I might add that I’m the sort of person who gets irritated when discovering small ‘faults’ that originally escaped my attention. Probably some kind of OCD thing haha. I must admit, I would be annoyed if say my kit was out of warranty and I received a (well intentioned) message advising of it’s defects. Particularly if I was quite happy with it...sometimes ignorance is bliss...

Going back to my OCD and thinking of other purchases (non Astro related), I realised that most things have an acceptable tolerance regarding perfection...nothing we buy is 100% perfect...there will always be that little imperfection in aesthetics that can only be seen if you are REALLY looking for it (a pin prick in the paint job for example)...it’s the same with a lot of things, including optics I feel.

[Robindonne]

No matter how satisfied and happy i would be with a new scope, I definitely would have someone telling me what i actually just bought.   I think most people would prefer that kind of experienced eyes looking into their gear. Im not sure but i assume the extra check of the optics, dealers offer, are a welcome addition.  Even if the dealers check report looks good, i would let it check again.   
 

dont waste your expertise when something caught your eye.

[Adam J]

23 hours ago, Alkaid said:

There will always be that little imperfection in aesthetics that can only be seen if you are REALLY looking for it (a pin prick in the paint job for example)...it’s the same with a lot of things, including optics I feel.

Just to be clear I am not talking about small imperfections more like big issues effecting the function of the scope. Aka cross shaped stars that do not focus to a point. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Adam J