US vs UK Telescope sizes explained

[Louis D]

I've noticed many folks in the UK (and other parts of Europe and Asia) looking for smaller, lighter, more compact telescopes on these forums compared to what I see among US amateur astronomers.  I've often wondered why the difference.  Based on the following two graphics, I think I have some idea now of why:

My take?  The US has way bigger houses to store telescopes in and more (and bigger as well, I'd wager) cars move bigger telescopes about than the UK (and most other countries).  That, and way cheaper gas to put in those cars.  I'm sure there are other factors such as the prevalence of detached, single family homes vs attached homes or apartments/flats in the UK which limit telescope usage at home.

Any thoughts on the matter?

[Swoop1]

I don't think it is just home and vehicle size. I suspect the average back garden/ yard in the states is a bit bigger than in the UK so smaller is more practical (though aperture envy is still rife).

Also, isn't eveything bigger in Texas? 😉

[John]

If I wanted a larger scope I would need a larger plot of land rather than a larger house. To keep the scope at close to outside temperature I'd need space for an observatory or other outside home for the scope, which I don't have room for given the size of our garden.

My other half has a couple of greenhouses though so I guess I'll have to start negotiating or move to a house with a larger garden !

 

[Piero]

There is also a difference in cost. When one starts adding customs and shipping cost a premium dobson can be quite expensive.

[Paz]

I think the weather is one reason. The weather for the whole of the uk is cloudy so much of the time  and even when it's not cloudy the conditions are not great. The US may have some areas of poor weather but it has lots of areas with really good conditions.

I've read many reports from over the pond about crazy magnifications that you almost never hear of in the UK, my guess being its  due to the conditions. Hence less opportunities to get the best out of big scopes over here.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Paz

[Stu]

I would add a few other points. Weather, light pollution and seeing conditions.

We are a small, crowded island on the East side of a sizeable pond, with a prevailing wind bringing constant unpredictable weather systems laden with moist air. Having a 30" dob is a big commitment financially and logistically and getting the conditions to make the most of it is tricky, so most of us choose smaller scopes. I could afford a 20" dob if I sold other kit but would rarely if ever use it.

You have bigger everything, but also places where you have very dark skies, with dry transparent air and in some cases higher altitudes. That makes it much more likely to be worthwhile.

[scarp15]

Location and not necessarily aperture has become a more interesting aspiration for myself considering UK circumstances. As mentioned by Stu and others, weather, light pollution and light intrusion, seeing conditions, flight path traffic, each aspect seemingly becoming an increasingly worsening factor. I would be inclined to experience slightly larger aperture than I currently use, marking up to 16" - 18", but equally, storage, frequency of use plus cost rule that out. Escaping light pollution on a night of good transparency, taking applicable; small or moderate sized optics depending on the intended trip in a modest sized car, is quite enough.   

Edited June 25, 2019 by scarp15

[kirkster501]

The cost per inch of aperture per use in our weather conditions explains it!  Almost perpetual cloud that we have makes large scopes pretty pointless here.  A whole different matter in the US.

[Louis D]

I'm also thinking of so many UK beginners who balk at getting an 8" Dob (or even 6") and instead gravitate toward a 127 Mak or 130p due to issues of having to haul it up or down flights of stairs or carrying it on public transit.  As can be seen above, only 15% of Americans take public transit, so for the 85%, that's a non-issue.  It is an issue to 65% of UK folks, and probably much higher in urban areas that are already awful for astronomy.

Having a 16" or larger Dob is a whole other discussion.  However, I see plenty of 6" to 10" Dobs and SCTs at local star parties which don't seem large to my eye, just right-sized.  I can see, though, if you live in a small apartment/flat four stories up and you don't own a car, that it would be a monstrosity to move.

[Floater]

You’re an observant person, Louis, to pick up on this only from comparing UK posts.

And I’m sure we can now agree that it is a mixture of so many factors. I think the changeable, unpredictable weather (yes, even in Scotland 😬!) plays a large part. From what I gather there are many amateur astronomers who practise their art in big US cities. Settled weather and being able to plan ahead is a boon. 

Quick edit: I do know it’s not always settled weather in the US!!

Edited June 25, 2019 by Floater

[John]

I don't know if this is still the case but in many countries in Europe, living in flats or apartments is, or was more common than it is in the UK. The prospect of stair portage is a good incentive to consider seriously about the bulk and weight of the scope I would think.

From scopes that I've owned and others I've used, there seems to be quite a sudden change in bulk and weight with a relatively small aperture change. My 12 dob is pretty quick and easy for me to set up on my observing site (AKA the patio) with 2 quick lifts, a few paces and one step down. I would be very doubtfull, from what I've seen of them, that a 14 inch would be as easy and 16 inchers are definitely not practical for my circumstances.

I owned a 12 inch dob by another brand which was much heavier than my current scope and, despite being a capable scope, it just did not get much use after an initial period of enthusiasm.

This is a complex subject though and there are many factors at work I think. 

 

[maw lod qan]

An interesting thread.

I have to admit I think there has been a mind set for some time of "I want it bigger and better" here in the States.

So many of our parents raise the children to try and do better than they did. A bigger house, a better car.

Perhaps that just migrates over to the telescopes. Bigger seems better.

Big houses, we started small and crowded. Like when you go too long hungry, when we finally built our home we built big. Also, back in the 80's when we built, code required 5 acres at that time. Many areas still do.

We have quite a few regulations regarding renting out a private apartment, like something over a garage. 

But some of the issues with cars, gas use and public transportation is simple. This is a big country.

I drive 30 miles one way to work. I know some who drive almost 75 one way.

Where I live, we've never had public transportation. The nearest Amtrak train is 150 miles on the Atlantic side of the state.

We've got some good points and some bad.

Yes, thankfully we do seem to have good weather, most of the time. I feel for you when I try to imagine months of clouds.

[Louis D]

I started this thread because I've noticed when trying to suggest first or second telescopes, that it makes a huge difference what the circumstances of the requestor are.  More often than not, just by asking what country the person lives in, I can get a good idea of telescope preference based on past posts by others from the same country.  There are exceptions, of course.  For example, every once in a while, they'll be the UK person living in the dark countryside on a nice estate who can really use a bigger telescope.

Not every American wants a big telescope, either.  I put together a 127 Mak setup for my grown daughter to take camping so it doesn't take up too much space in the back of her SUV since she'll have lots of camping gear back there as well.

[kirkster501]

13 hours ago, maw lod qan said:

An interesting thread.

I have to admit I think there has been a mind set for some time of "I want it bigger and better" here in the States.

So many of our parents raise the children to try and do better than they did. A bigger house, a better car.

Perhaps that just migrates over to the telescopes. Bigger seems better.

Big houses, we started small and crowded. Like when you go too long hungry, when we finally built our home we built big. Also, back in the 80's when we built, code required 5 acres at that time. Many areas still do.

We have quite a few regulations regarding renting out a private apartment, like something over a garage. 

But some of the issues with cars, gas use and public transportation is simple. This is a big country.

I drive 30 miles one way to work. I know some who drive almost 75 one way.

Where I live, we've never had public transportation. The nearest Amtrak train is 150 miles on the Atlantic side of the state.

We've got some good points and some bad.

Yes, thankfully we do seem to have good weather, most of the time. I feel for you when I try to imagine months of clouds.

I work for an American company.  I have been over to the US dozens of times, probably 80 or 90 times at least and I am going again in two weeks.  I am on the phone and video conference to Americans, from many states, every day.  

Not to decry my own beloved country and people here in the UK but there is much more of a "can do" or "we can do this" attitude in the US that applies to everything, in every walk of life.  They are extremely patriotic with the stars and stripes flying everywhere.  There is a sense of national identity much more than us.  Many more people in the US really do believe they could be president proportionally than people here think they could be PM.  As a result of all this they aspire to the biggest and the best, it's in their DNA.  Cars, houses, freeways, telescopes.  As a general rule of course, there are always exceptions.

They are further south than us and generally have much better weather and clearer skies than us who are stuck under the jet stream of the North East Atlantic.  Some folks in humid Florida may debate that but I'd suggest they come to the UK for a bit to see what cloudy, grey weather truly is, when it goes on and on for months.  So that means that a large scope is more useful in the US.  Maybe not in downtown but the US is a vast country.  A country where it takes five hours to fly across it is BIG.

Since scopes tend to cost the same in dollars as in pounds, large scopes are proportionately much cheaper in the US.

These are some reasons why they have bigger scopes.  And I would too if i was there and could make use of one.  

[Peter Drew]

I'm fortunate to have the space and large telescopes, but not the suitable weather. The largest instruments see the least  use.    ☹️   

[maw lod qan]

I am one of those with the "I can do that" attitude. Not much i haven't tried or done. Sometimes, that way of thinking can and will get you in trouble.

[Mr Spock]

UK housing was made for sardines, which, is how we all fit in this tiny country... 

[Gina]

Maybe I've got a bit of America in me - I like to go BIG.  The dial on this clock is 3ft diameter.

[ollypenrice]

Of course a 6.2 litre Chevrolet V8 of 445bhp is an absolute 'must' in a motorcycle...  https://bosshoss.com/supersport-bike/

lly

[Alien 13]

2 hours ago, Gina said:

Maybe I've got a bit of America in me - I like to go BIG.  The dial on this clock is 3ft diameter.

I dont think I have a wall that big so I go the micro route....Nice clock though.

Alan

[Louis D]

9 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

Of course a 6.2 litre Chevrolet V8 of 445bhp is an absolute 'must' in a motorcycle...  https://bosshoss.com/supersport-bike/

lly

Dang, I've only got a 6.0 liter, L76 V8 of 361 HP in my '09 Pontiac G8 GT. 😕

[cletrac1922]

On 26/06/2019 at 01:53, Louis D said:

I've noticed many folks in the UK (and other parts of Europe and Asia) looking for smaller, lighter, more compact telescopes on these forums compared to what I see among US amateur astronomers.  I've often wondered why the difference.  Based on the following two graphics, I think I have some idea now of why:

My take?  The US has way bigger houses to store telescopes in and more (and bigger as well, I'd wager) cars move bigger telescopes about than the UK (and most other countries).  That, and way cheaper gas to put in those cars.  I'm sure there are other factors such as the prevalence of detached, single family homes vs attached homes or apartments/flats in the UK which limit telescope usage at home.

Any thoughts on the matter?

Hi Guys

Just picked up on this thread

Seems to be same in Australia

Down here average house is detached, on a 600 sq meter block, houses around 32 squares, with entertaining areas, pools, off street double car accommodation 

Most houses built last 30 years, also have 4 bedrooms, and average size of bedrooms are 4 metres by 4 meters, and incorporates built in wardrobes

Where I am, we live on a 2000 sq meter block, with frontage 60 meters, and 120 metres in depth

The equivalent of 20 terrace houses in the UK

Even though marginally below Tropic of Capricorn, had light pollution free skies as well

This morning when leaving home for work around 4-30am, had Jupiter on western horizon, Saturn was trailing behind, and quarter moon, all most overhead

Currently Jupiter is visible above eastern horizon, after sunset, and Saturn rises about an hour later

Around midnight, both overhead

I have 10" Dob, as well as ED80 on EQ5 mount, which store inside house without a problem

John

 

  

[MarsG76]

would make sense.... It's hard to keep a 24" dobsonian in an 1 bedroom apartment..... but with Americans it for a different reason... they always want the biggest and fastest everything to........

[MarsG76]

.... feel like big tough U S of A men.... 😉

 

 

[ollypenrice]

2 hours ago, cletrac1922 said:

Hi Guys

Most houses built last 30 years, also have 4 bedrooms, and average size of bedrooms are 4 metres by 4 meters, and incorporates built in wardrobes

John

 

  

Really? What happens to them?

Olly