New Frac Decisions

[AdeKing]

I've decided that at some point over the next couple of months that I want to sell on two of my Newts (150p and 130pds) and a small Mak (Heritage Virtuoso 90) and pick up a longish focal length Frac.

I've currently got a WO ZS66 and a ST102 which get a huge amount of use, but as I enjoy lunar and planetary observation I find that I'm struggling with the small exit pupil required with high magnifications on these two short tube fracs.

Mount wise, I have a SkyTee 2 on a Berlebach Uni 18, an AZ4 on HEQ5 legs and an EQ5 that always gets passed over in favour of the AltAz mounts, so whatever I get needs to be suitable for these mounts as I don't want to upgrade the mount, though I suspect that the SkyTee will handle almost anything in this size range.

I'm also strictly visual and to be honest don't find the CA obtrusive with the ST102 (though I know that some people hate it) so I have no particular bias towards Apochromats and given that I'm looking for a longish FL tube, I expect that CA should be pretty well controlled.

I don't particularly like the 90mm Mak that I have so am not keen to go down the Mak route, despite their reputation as "Planet Killers."

I also enjoy Binoviewing so that is also a consideration.  If I can find a BV friendly OTA that doesn't need an OCA to reach focus, so much the better, though I'm not holding out much hope.

As above, the main uses will be for Lunar, Planets, Doubles and WL Solar, and though I do often look for DSOs I tend to do this with either the 8" or 12" Dob, depending on how energetic I'm feeling.

I've narrowed my choice down the the following three OTAs, two of which are very similar, but am keen for opinions on these or other recommendations fitting the criteria above.

Top budget is £400 with negligible (if any) wriggle room so there will be no Taks here unfortunately.  I have no worries about buying used if there is something worth waiting for.

1) Opticstar ARC127 f/9.5 - £245

2) Bresser Messier AR127L f/9.5 - £312

3) Altair Starwave Classic 102 f/11 - £385

Is there any reason to choose the Bresser over the Opticstar as I understand that these two are effectively clones?  Is the Hexafoc Focuser on the Bresser much of an improvement over the focuser on the Opticstar?

Given that I already have a ST102, would it be better to go for increased aperture and focal length with one of the 127mm choices or would the Starwave 102 be the better choice?  I know that the Starwave 102 OTA is very highly regarded here at SGL and I class it as a premium scope so would expect build quality and finish to be better than the Opticstar and Bresser offerings.

I have to say that a red Starwave does tick all the eye candy boxes and it looks like a cracking scope but would the larger aperture be an advantage?

Any help that you can offer or other recommendations would be gratefully received.

Ade

 

[Mark at Beaufort]

Ade hope you are keeping well. You might also consider the TAL Apolar 125 APO currently on Astroboot selling for £579.20 less 10% at the moment. http://www.astroboot.co.uk/AstroBoot

[Rob]

I LOVE my AR 127L.. Sure its a handful as quite long, but boy for an achro its so well corrected and the contrast it pulls is amazing!. I will dig out an Iphone image of the moon to give you an idea (totally UN-proccessed in any way). I bought a Baader fringe killer, but don't use it.

Bang for buck, hands down!

[R26 oldtimer]

I have the Bresser 127L and it's a great scope, if you have the mount for it. The hexafoc is the best r&p focuser I 've used (haven't tested baader steeltrack), and gets even better with the 1:10 upgrade. Its travel is sufficient and comes with 2 extension rings to use with diagonal or not. My guess is that without those rings, a binoviewer will reach focus without a barlow. The 9x50 finder is good, while you 'll have to get a diagonal, as the one that comes with is rubbish.

[R26 oldtimer]

6 minutes ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

Ade hope you are keeping well. You might also consider the TAL Apolar 125 APO currently on Astroboot selling for £579.20 less 10% at the moment. http://www.astroboot.co.uk/AstroBoot

I 've been watching it for days now and every time I 'm about to hit the button, I can almost hear Clint Eastwood "...are you feeling lucky....punk?"

[Rob]

Just now, R26 oldtimer said:

I 've been watching it for days now and every time I 'm about to hit the button, I can almost hear Clint Eastwood "...are you feeling lucky....punk?"

Haha .. Me too.. but not buy, just keep wondering when its going to go. I have to say AdeKing, you should give this scope some serious thought to be fair!

[xtreemchaos]

id have to go for the AA classic f11 because i have one and its wonderfull and a joy to use. goodluck , charl.

[R26 oldtimer]

I would also check this out, although not as well color corrected...

https://www.bresser.de/en/Sale/Display-Items/Bresser-Messier-AR-152L-1200-Hexafoc-Optical-Tube-bresser.html

[Rob]

Ok.. so here is the Iphone shot. I got a free Bresser mobile phone ep projection holder with my OTA. So one night I tried it out. I used a 25mm Sterling plossl. 4 element eyepiece and my Iphone 6. (no filters of any kind)

 

[Fozzie]

The AA F11 is a cracking scope.. I had mine upto 450x with a 2x Telextender and 5mm SLV EP the other week (if my maths is right 1125*2 = 2250/5mm)  Admittedly the seeing was phenomenal that night, but it shows how well configured it is..  I was using a tracking GP mount though.. Although I rekon it would have taken more, just didn't have the EP or extender to do it!

With any of the above scopes you will need a pier extension on the az4/eq5 and skytee2 as these are both long tubes so overhead viewing is gymnastics territory.   

I suspect that none will come to focus with BV without GPC, the AA certainly doesn't and the standard WO BV set and 1.6x glass corrector, I figured gave me somewhere in the region of 220x which was ok but a bit soft given our sky conditions so the moon and Jupiter were about the only targets when I BV'd.

Not sure you could go wrong with either on the skytee, not sure if the az4 is a bit undermounted on the 127L though.. the eq5 should be ok.. saying that I never enjoyed the F11 on my first eq5 (non tracking) but it virtually lives on my Vixen GP tracking mount.. haven't used my skytee in ages.

HTH

Fozzie

[Stu]

Ade, I just wanted to clarify one point you made in your post. You said you struggle with the exit pupil at the kinds of mags you want to use. Is this because of floaters or comfort at the eyepiece in other ways such as eye relief?

A longer focal length scope will obviously help with being able to use longer focal length eyepieces with better eye relief, but the exit pupil is going to be the same still. Only ways around that are more aperture, in which case the 127 looks a good shout, or binoviewers. I've had some good success with these for solar and lunar, although I remain to be convinced for planetary.

For high power viewing, a GPC is worthwhile using anyway as it corrects for some of the abberations inherent in the Binoviewer, you should get a better result when using one vs just a standard barlow.

The 102 f11s do look lovely, and perform very well. If I didn't have the Tak I would certainly get one. Have always fancied a red 152 f5.9 too  

[mikeDnight]

Out of the three scopes on your list Ade, I have to say go for the 102 F11. The lenses are not just common or garden achromats, they are well matched and figured. Fozzie's pics through his i phone are quite breathtaking and the actual eyepiece view would have been even better. If i were looking for a 4" high end achromat it would be this one for me. They are beautifully engineered too, making the other options look cheap. But the power of a frac lies in its lens and the Altair Star Wave 102 F11 has the finest lens out of the bunch!

[Timebandit]

 

Obviously not on your list ,so only a suggestion?

But what about one of the older gold tube SW 120ed. I understand these come up used for around the £500mark(depends how strict your budget is)

The SW 120ed have a reputation for being optically very well corrected, and at very sensible money. They also are very accommodating to a binoviewers.

I find my Sw120ed a great frac and have had some breathtaking views of the moon from the binoviewing set up. And have found it sits on my AZ 4 without any problems. So your skytee should easily handle it.

 

 

 

 

[25585]

3 hours ago, R26 oldtimer said:

I would also check this out, although not as well color corrected...

https://www.bresser.de/en/Sale/Display-Items/Bresser-Messier-AR-152L-1200-Hexafoc-Optical-Tube-bresser.html

Is thst like the SW 152mm? Same lenses?

[R26 oldtimer]

I think it's more like the Meade 6" achromatic but without the lemons that skipped meade's q.c. From all the reviews I've seen (as I never had one), they seem pretty consistent although more ca than the 127L, but they can be stepped down for brighter objects.

[garryblueboy]

I've had the starwave f11 102 great scope and have the 152v3 again great scope 

[Paul73]

I love my SwED120. The planetary and Lunar definition is outstanding! I have a Bresser 102mm and find the materials used feel cheap compared to the ED120. The views are fine but one with the new focuser is an absolute must.

Also on a SkyT and a Berlebach!

Paul

PS. I felt no real compunction about chopping the Bresser in half to convert to Ha. Not a bad product at all. Just didn’t float my boat.

[Saganite]

5 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Out of the three scopes on your list Ade, I have to say go for the 102 F11. The lenses are not just common or garden achromats, they are well matched and figured. Fozzie's pics through his i phone are quite breathtaking and the actual eyepiece view would have been even better. If i were looking for a 4" high end achromat it would be this one for me. They are beautifully engineered too, making the other options look cheap. But the power of a frac lies in its lens and the Altair Star Wave 102 F11 has the finest lens out of the bunch!

I have to echo everything Mike has said. I owned one  for a while and not only was it excellent optically it looked just gorgeous, well made, and oozing quality. I sold it when Chris decided to part with his  brand new Celestron XLT F9 102, which I consider a keeper. Apart from a little CA in the AA f11, I felt it was the equal of the Celestron ED, but I preferred the look of the Starwave.

Correct decision...I don't know.

I would try to get hands on a Starwave f11 Ade, that might help you decide, particularly with its gorgeous purple objective, and screw on metal lens cap !!   

[25585]

Frac porn https://www.tringastro.co.uk/starwave-152-v3-red-tube-achromat-refractor-telescope-7921-p.asp?gclid=CjwKCAiA_ojVBRAlEiwAOLRxI-zEEj4x8rEMQ9gy1h7Qq6YTM7mk-o2H6FEpyMUeF0bEXp8D8rpdThoCNWQQAvD_BwE

[AdeKing]

7 hours ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

Ade hope you are keeping well. You might also consider the TAL Apolar 125 APO currently on Astroboot selling for £579.20 less 10% at the moment. http://www.astroboot.co.uk/AstroBoot

I'm keeping well thanks @Mark at Beaufort, enjoying your Berlebach tripod very much, makes for a rock solid setup with the SkyTee2.  Thanks for your suggestion, I have been watching the TAL Apolar 125 on Astroboot for a while, but its over budget.  The TAL Apolar is a bit of a catch 22 as budget can be stretched a bit if I wait until the end of the year but the TAL Apolar won't wait around that long.

8 hours ago, Rob said:

 

I LOVE my AR 127L.. Sure its a handful as quite long, but boy for an achro its so well corrected and the contrast it pulls is amazing!.

 

@Rob and @R26 oldtimer thanks for the votes and info on the AR127L.   I saw a Bresser AR127L set up for solar observing at SGL SP 2017 and was quite surprised by the size of the OTA.  I am amazed at the lack of CA in your iPhone image Rob.  

8 hours ago, R26 oldtimer said:

I would also check this out, although not as well color corrected...

https://www.bresser.de/en/Sale/Display-Items/Bresser-Messier-AR-152L-1200-Hexafoc-Optical-Tube-bresser.html

The AR152 is very tempting at that price but is probably larger than I want/am able to go at the moment.

7 hours ago, Fozzie said:

The AA F11 is a cracking scope.. I had mine upto 450x with a 2x Telextender and 5mm SLV EP the other week (if my maths is right 1125*2 = 2250/5mm)  Admittedly the seeing was phenomenal that night, but it shows how well configured it is..  I was using a tracking GP mount though.. Although I rekon it would have taken more, just didn't have the EP or extender to do it!

With any of the above scopes you will need a pier extension on the az4/eq5 and skytee2 as these are both long tubes so overhead viewing is gymnastics territory.   

I suspect that none will come to focus with BV without GPC, the AA certainly doesn't and the standard WO BV set and 1.6x glass corrector, I figured gave me somewhere in the region of 220x which was ok but a bit soft given our sky conditions so the moon and Jupiter were about the only targets when I BV'd.

Not sure you could go wrong with either on the skytee, not sure if the az4 is a bit undermounted on the 127L though.. the eq5 should be ok.. saying that I never enjoyed the F11 on my first eq5 (non tracking) but it virtually lives on my Vixen GP tracking mount.. haven't used my skytee in ages.

HTH

Fozzie

Thanks for the info about the BVs and the AA F11 @Fozzie.  450x with the AA F11 sounds amazing, the fact that you got 450x with a 4" is astonishing even if you don't get to use it that often.

I think the SkyTee and EQ5 should be ok, but you're probably right about the AZ4 being undermounted.  I do have a pier extension that I use with the AZ4 so that I don't have to extend the tripod legs at all and this could easily be swapped to the SkyTee.

7 hours ago, Stu said:

 

Ade, I just wanted to clarify one point you made in your post. You said you struggle with the exit pupil at the kinds of mags you want to use. Is this because of floaters or comfort at the eyepiece in other ways such as eye relief?

A longer focal length scope will obviously help with being able to use longer focal length eyepieces with better eye relief, but the exit pupil is going to be the same still. Only ways around that are more aperture, in which case the 127 looks a good shout, or binoviewers. I've had some good success with these for solar and lunar, although I remain to be convinced for planetary.

For high power viewing, a GPC is worthwhile using anyway as it corrects for some of the abberations inherent in the Binoviewer, you should get a better result when using one vs just a standard barlow.

The 102 f11s do look lovely, and perform very well. If I didn't have the Tak I would certainly get one. Have always fancied a red 152 f5.9 too  

 

@Stu when I sat down and thought about it, my issue with the current setup is more to do with comfort related to eye relief rather than exit pupil.  I do have some floaters, but they are not too bad and the BVs help with that aspect.  Its more the lack of eye relief associated with short focal length eyepieces and the desire to be able to get higher magnifications with longer focal length eyepieces.  I'll have to take a look at a GPC, I didn't realise that they were significantly different from a standard Barlow.

6 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Out of the three scopes on your list Ade, I have to say go for the 102 F11. The lenses are not just common or garden achromats, they are well matched and figured. Fozzie's pics through his i phone are quite breathtaking and the actual eyepiece view would have been even better. If i were looking for a 4" high end achromat it would be this one for me. They are beautifully engineered too, making the other options look cheap. But the power of a frac lies in its lens and the Altair Star Wave 102 F11 has the finest lens out of the bunch!

@mikeDnight out of the three choices, the AA 102 F11 is the one that I considered to be the premium choice. My only uncertainty was whether or not I ought to go for a slightly larger aperture, though I'm not sure how much difference I'd notice with the extra inch of aperture.

 

6 hours ago, Timebandit said:

Obviously not on your list ,so only a suggestion?

But what about one of the older gold tube SW 120ed. I understand these come up used for around the £500mark(depends how strict your budget is)

The SW 120ed have a reputation for being optically very well corrected, and at very sensible money. They also are very accommodating to a binoviewers.

I find my Sw120ed a great frac and have had some breathtaking views of the moon from the binoviewing set up. And have found it sits on my AZ 4 without any problems. So your skytee should easily handle it.

@Timebandit I have actually considered both the 120ED and 100ED as I know they also have a loyal following so the suggestion is a welcome one.  I'd only discounted the 120ED on the basis of budget as it really is quite tight but can grow slightly the longer I wait.  I wasn't aware that the 120EDs were BV friendly though, that is something worth remembering.  Getting something that can be managed by the AZ4 would be a bonus, though is not an absolute necessity. Being manageable on the EQ5 and SkyTee are however definite requirements.

3 hours ago, garryblueboy said:

 

I've had the starwave f11 102 great scope and have the 152v3 again great scope 

 

@garryblueboy thanks for another thumbs up for the Starwave 102 f11, I'm beginning to lean in that direction.

2 hours ago, Paul73 said:

I love my SwED120. The planetary and Lunar definition is outstanding! I have a Bresser 102mm and find the materials used feel cheap compared to the ED120. The views are fine but one with the new focuser is an absolute must.

Also on a SkyT and a Berlebach!

Paul

PS. I felt no real compunction about chopping the Bresser in half to convert to Ha. Not a bad product at all. Just didn’t float my boat.

@Paul73 another vote for the 120ED and thanks for the helpful info about getting the Bresser 102mm with the updated focuser, I'll bear that in mind if I go in that direction.

2 hours ago, Saganite said:

I have to echo everything Mike has said. I owned one  for a while and not only was it excellent optically it looked just gorgeous, well made, and oozing quality. I sold it when Chris decided to part with his  brand new Celestron XLT F9 102, which I consider a keeper. Apart from a little CA in the AA f11, I felt it was the equal of the Celestron ED, but I preferred the look of the Starwave.

Correct decision...I don't know.

I would try to get hands on a Starwave f11 Ade, that might help you decide.   

Thanks for the glowing recommendation of the Starwave f11 Steve, the red tube does look absolutely gorgeous and the fact I'm getting reports of excellent optics is almost sealing the deal.

Thanks to everyone for your input so far, its currently tipping in favour of the Starwave 102 f11 as its in budget, albeit at the top end.  The 120ED is another contender if one comes up used within budget but I'm not expecting that to happen really.  The Bresser AR127L is looking like the third choice with the Opticstar ARC127 the outsider at the moment.

Lots of thinking for me to do.

Ade

 

[Paul73]

I love my SwED120. The planetary and Lunar definition is outstanding! I have a Bresser 102mm and find the materials used feel cheap compared to the ED120. The views are fine but one with the new focuser is an absolute must.

Also on a SkyT and a Berlebach!

Paul

PS. I felt no real compunction about chopping the Bresser in half to convert to Ha. Not a bad product at all. Just didn’t float my boat.

[Chris]

I think Stu is right to point you towards more aperture if floaters are bothering you? Exit pupil is aperture divided by magnification, therefore a 100mm scope at 200x will have an exit pupil of 0.5mm and a 127mm scope will have 0.64mm, so the Bresser/Opticstar 127 f/9.4 would be the better choice. 

Having said that, there isn't that much difference between 0.5 and 0.64, and really you should be aiming to achieve and exit pupil above 1mm to start to reduce floaters. It's a shame you're not keen on compound scopes because an 200mm SCT at 200x gives an exit pupil of 1mm. Also an SCT will binoview very well. 

If going for a frac which I can totally understand as (I always miss having one within a month of moving one on), I'd look at a big 6" beast to help with exit pupil, especially if you don't mind the CA. I've owned the Bresser 127L and it was amazing, I can imagine the 152 version wold be nice but very heavy. Then again your Skytee and beefy tripod should cope if your arms can? 

[dweller25]

18 hours ago, R26 oldtimer said:

I 've been watching it for days now and every time I 'm about to hit the button, I can almost hear Clint Eastwood "...are you feeling lucky....punk?"

Suggest you do some research first

[Stu]

41 minutes ago, dweller25 said:

Suggest you do some research first

Yes, that's why it still hasn't moved!

[25585]

1 hour ago, Paul73 said:

I love my SwED120. The planetary and Lunar definition is outstanding! I have a Bresser 102mm and find the materials used feel cheap compared to the ED120. The views are fine but one with the new focuser is an absolute must.

Also on a SkyT and a Berlebach!

Paul

PS. I felt no real compunction about chopping the Bresser in half to convert to Ha. Not a bad product at all. Just didn’t float my boat.

My Equinox is a keeper. Some still out there waiting to be bought. Same optics as a SW ED120 but quality better tube, OE focuser and dew shield.