Aperture fever , the Emperor's new clothes ?

[Paul73]

There is a Big Dob thread running at the moment.

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/229917-cleaning-the-primary-mirror-of-my-telescope/

There are those who think "that looks petty manageable" to those who think "hand me my Binos - I'm out of here!".

I wonder how that would do in a typical LP infested UK back yard against one of Nick's trusty fracs??

Paul

[Liquid360]

Factors such as degree of passion, location, portability, age, and physical health must be factored. This advice for aperture above all almost destroyed my passion.

[Mark at Beaufort]

I have a 10" flextube Dob complete with a shroud. Great views although I can count on my hand the number of times I have used it this year. Most of my observing this year has been solar with the 4" APO for white light and the PST for Ha. Solar is not my main interest its just because its been clear during the day and then more often than not it clouds over.

If it remains clear I either use the 180mm Mak/Cass for lunar/planetary or double star viewing or I take out the 6" f5 Newt and place it on the SkyTee 2 and look at my favourite objects.

I understand what Nick is saying and I have a good east/west horizon with little LP so I have often thought about a 12" or 14" Dob but I think I will stay with my 10" Dob. Because Lucksall is so close to me I sometimes cheat and look through other members larger Dobs. I will always be grateful to Luke and Sarah for allowing me to observe the HorseHead Neb through their 16" Dob at Lucksall.

[Luke]

There is a Big Dob thread running at the moment.

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/229917-cleaning-the-primary-mirror-of-my-telescope/

There are those who think "that looks petty manageable" to those who think "hand me my Binos - I'm out of here!".

I wonder how that would do in a typical LP infested UK back yard against one of Nick's trusty fracs??

Paul

Great that it's in action wtihin three minutes!

[Dannae]

This is a great thread btw

At face value, visual astronomy in large apertures can be inherently disappointing compared with the gorgeous colour photographs taken through a small refractor for example. I speak as an outreach person that has shown Saturn/planets/moon through a long focal length 4" refractor set up next to the 20" Dob with showpiece DSO's and the public ask for the planetary view every time, it simply has the 'wow' factor. With planets large fast aperture in my opinion peaks around 10" to 12", but peaks much lower in longer focal lengths. It simply isn't worth the cost to improve on these wonderfully bright objects beyond this except in exceptional conditions or where the price to detail 'ratio' is irrelevant to you. On the other hand It is hard to get excited initially about faint smudges and averted vision in small scopes from light polluted areas (where I started like most people!) and as someone that finished the NGC catalog a few years ago I can speak honestly about the few hundred or so targets I would ever feel necessary to go back to on a regular basis with larger aperture. That being said I derive most of my enjoyment from learning about the object (distance, history, age etc) and I find that Joe Public appreciate this kind of information to 'big' up what they might be looking at especially in order to feed an interest in astronomy.

I went up in stages from initially 6" > 10" > 16" and finally to 20" so whilst I have brighter smudges to play with, they are just that. Will I go larger? Probably; it's kind of inevitable up to the point of what you can save and afford and what you can physically store, transport or handle. As mentioned above, large aperture trains the eye and I also pick out greater detail on smaller scopes that I would ever have picked out and I would put this down to familiarity/time with the target, picture memory (especially on extended filtered targets like the veil or faint objects like Stephans Quintet) and experience. One thing large aperture can show is 'colour' and allow direct vision of targets previous only viewed avertly.

If rewarding visual astronomy teaches one thing it is patience at the eyepiece.

Regards

Dannae

[Paul73]

Factors such as degree of passion, location, portability, age, and physical health must be factored. This advice for aperture above all almost destroyed my passion.

The "Big Dob Aficionado" will be blind to such factors in their frenzied search for the darkest sky and the deepest views. They cannot comprehend that hauling a big Dob across the country a couple of times a month isn't practical or much fun for a lot of astronomers. However, their cries of "Bigger, Bigger, Ethos, Ethos, Bigger, Bigger" has replaced the more traditional night time soundtrack of the deep countryside. The RSPB got quite excited that it was the mating call of a new type of Owl until they discovered the Jaffa Cake wrappers ......

They won't read this for a while as they will have been thrown of the scent by my earlier post highlighting a Big Dob thread.

Different people want different things from their hobby and we need to understand the needs and make sure that the options are laid out clearly.

To my mind, we generally give a pretty balanced view once we think beyond our knee jerk "get a Dob" (although for many, this will be good advice).

Paul

PS. I hope that my clumsy attempt at humour hasn't offended anyone. I crave a big Dob but won't be getting rid of the little one when I do take the plunge.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

For me I think it works a bit differently: Learning to pick out faint smudges in my little C8 has helped me a lot in picking out fine detail in the 20" Dob I used in Olly's place. On my first visit a few years back (with quite a bit of interfering moonlight) I picked out a couple DSOs Olly had never seen through his scope. This is one reason I would NOT advise newcomers to dive in at the >=16" dob end, but (as most people do) go for a 6 or 8". Much more manageable, good all-round performance for a great price. The great thing about the times we live in is the fact that so many different options are available, at much lower prices than when I started. It can be bewildering, but there is something for everyone there

[swamp thing]

Nice to see I'm not alone in finding that larger apertures do indeed train the eye to see better.

Thanks guys

[Moonshane]

As with many things in modern life, imagine an amateur astronomer from the 1960s transported forward hearing this conversation. They would consider the thought of 'everyone' owning a 8" telescope preposterous. How lucky we are to have such choice (I think?).

[Alien 13]

The one issue i have with larger scopes is that the increase in objective size comes with an increase in focal length now if i could get a 12" dob with a FL of 500mm I would be in like a shot.

Alan

[nightfisher]

Nick, superb post.

I dont and wont have a large dob, i have toyed with hanging a 200 newt on my skytee but i doubt it will happen, i used to own a 180 pro mak, and what a superb scope, but it was to big, needing the full HEQ5 set up, even that mount felt like it was having a hard time, so i downgraded to a 150 pro, a smart move as it will work on a smaller mount so gets used cloud willing.

I have often felt a large scope from a light polluted site is something of a waste, and to be honest we dont get to travel to a dark site very often

[bomberbaz]

As with many things in modern life, imagine an amateur astronomer from the 1960s transported forward hearing this conversation. They would consider the thought of 'everyone' owning a 8" telescope preposterous. How lucky we are to have such choice (I think?).

Don't think they would be impressed with the light pollution either.....

[Daniel-K]

. I crave a big Dob but won't be getting rid of the little one when I do take the plunge.

why patronize people who already own big dobs then?

people with big dob like me want the best that this hobby can give. buying big dobs expensive glass and traveling to dark skies only a handful of astronomers ever get to see  is truly out of this world. all the effort that goes into getting to these place's with big scopes or even modest sized scopes is sight i believe every amateur astronomer should get to see.

little scopes are handy for trowing out in between the clouds but are you really happy looking at a faint smudge?? get 10" DOB and resolve that GLOB to the core! seeing space in between the stars at 300x is truly breathtaking and seeing spiral structure and HA regions in galaxies. 

how much would a 16" frac cost you compared to a 16" meade or revelation dob to get the same image scale? tens of thousands! each have their own advantage's, if you like small faint patch's of fuzzy nothings stick with your national geographic scopes and you will never truly experience being an astronomer .

[Liquid360]

I think patronized is how the other side feels most times. Different strokes for different folks. Nobody is saying bigger doesn't gather more light. What I am saying is that big scopes are a LOT of work for some and the differences in practical viewing aren't worth the price (work) of admission. Telling newcomers that bigger's better isn't helpful. I get defensive here, too much so, because of the effect the advice had on me. I take responsibility for my choices, but more reasonable advice at the time would've proven useful. I'll stop here as I know I'm taking things FAR too personally. Anyways, I've become an AP guy as of late.

[Stu]

Paul

PS. I hope that my clumsy attempt at humour hasn't offended anyone. I crave a big Dob but won't be getting rid of the little one when I do take the plunge.

why patronize people who already own big dobs then?

Just so we all remain friends, Dan, Paul wasn't being patronising he was 'trying' to be funny ;-)

Most of us would love to see the sights you see Dan, but life, location or other circumstances, and even motivation (or lack of sufficient) get in the way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Beulah]

I tend to like the advice people give regarding the best scope is the one you'll use the most.

Aperture is wonderful but portability is really the king. No good if the thing's too big and heavy to cart to a dark site!

However, I do like large light buckets..but have to go with something my back likes too!! 

At the moment, the back likes large scopes...

[bomberbaz]

The one issue i have with larger scopes is that the increase in objective size comes with an increase in focal length now if i could get a 12" dob with a FL of 500mm I would be in like a shot.

Alan

wouldn't that be about F1.7, might get a bit of comma even with a paracorr heheh

[Daniel-K]

 What I am saying is that big scopes are a LOT of work for some and the differences in practical viewing aren't worth the price (work) of admission. 

only as hard as you make them

[Liquid360]

Not necessarily.... my x-ray [emoji6]

only as hard as you make them

[webboid]

Just come back as lots going on & interesting conversation.

Despite having a bigger dob just got back in from observing with 4" grab & go. Half a dozen doubles a galaxy a glob & a few clusters. Sometimes you just have to be quick with a brief clear patch. About 100 sessions this year now, mostly with the dob.

[DaveS]

Ouch!

At the risk of derailing this thread,which I've been watching off and on all day, my response to the LP of London and all the other points raised has been to move into imaging with NB. This has enabled me to "see" things that I never could un-aided, even with a big reflector, and cut through the LP and even moonlight.

Mind you, imaging has it's own version of aperture fever

[bomberbaz]

Ooh point made there I think. Think that we should agree to disagree in that what works for one doesn't work for another, ones mans perfect is another man's pain.

If someone has the cash and is fit enough and ddaft, er I mean keen enough to drag this into the middle of a field then good for them. I tend to want to pull up in car, lift my stuff out and away I go. For some even my option might not be viable and so something else will be used.

Suffice to say that we are all, whatever variatiovn or method used wanting the same thing, to peer into the beautiful Cosmos.

[Daniel-K]

i could post a picture of the 12 screws and 2 plates i have in my ankle, but y ? ive had a dob made to my specs so i can move it about to the biggest i can afford ATM. TBH where kind of going of topic here. some people are more causal observers others like me are serious putting in hours and chasing the darkest skies available in the uk ( even with 2 kids and a wife ) at the end of the day aslong you yourself are happy with the views your are getting and getting nothing but joy out of astronomy than aperture is somewhat irrelevant 

[Liquid360]

Couldn't agree more!! I made the same move for same reasons. Until I get the bionic eyes I've been promised I'll use a CCD [emoji6]

Ouch!

At the risk of derailing this thread,which I've been watching off and on all day, my response to the LP of London and all the other points raised has been to move into imaging with NB. This has enabled me to "see" things that I never could un-aided, even with a big reflector, and cut through the LP and even moonlight.

Mind you, imaging has it's own version of aperture fever

[scarp15]

Well Jupiter is on its way back and will be gracing our night time sky soon, so whether viewing from home or as a dedicated dark sky observer, with a big, medium or small aperture scope we will all no doubt enjoy the views and have plenty of common ground.