Aperture fever , the Emperor's new clothes ?

[Daniel-K]

Ouch!

At the risk of derailing this thread,which I've been watching off and on all day, my response to the LP of London and all the other points raised has been to move into imaging with NB. This has enabled me to "see" things that I never could un-aided, even with a big reflector, and cut through the LP and even moonlight.

Mind you, imaging has it's own version of aperture fever

Ouch!

At the risk of derailing this thread,which I've been watching off and on all day, my response to the LP of London and all the other points raised has been to move into imaging with NB. This has enabled me to "see" things that I never could un-aided, even with a big reflector, and cut through the LP and even moonlight.

Mind you, imaging has it's own version of aperture fever

dave ive been down the AP route with the ROR obsy and boy it can be expensive. for yourself AP in a LP is relatively easy to gain some very good results with just some basic kit.

[Moonshane]

That flippin Nick

stirring it all up and then submerging :0)

[DaveS]

Although I've had to put it onto the back burner for the mo, my response to London's horrid orange murk will be to look for a place to buy in deepest, darkest mid-Wales, then I will be able to have a big 'scope if I want without having to lug it miles to a dark site.

[estwing]

Yeh kicked the hornets nest and ran!

[Daniel-K]

not bad for a Tuesday night though. could be worse, could be sat watching x-factor

[DaveS]

dave ive been down the AP route with the ROR obsy and boy it can be expensive. for yourself AP in a LP is relatively easy to gain some very good results with just some basic kit.

He he, just ask Per or Olly  . My "budget" AP rig has come to about £4.5k so far, and I'm budgeting for a Mesu and a triple rig.

Hmm...what size dob could you get for £4.5k ?

[Daniel-K]

He he, just ask Per or Olly  . My "budget" AP rig has come to about £4.5k so far, and I'm budgeting for a Mesu and a triple rig.

Hmm...what size dob could you get for £4.5k ?

 BTW if yout after a mesu i know a guy pm me.

24"

[bomberbaz]

Ouch!

At the risk of derailing this thread,which I've been watching off and on all day, my response to the LP of London and all the other points raised has been to move into imaging with NB. This has enabled me to "see" things that I never could un-aided, even with a big reflector, and cut through the LP and even moonlight.

Mind you, imaging has it's own version of aperture fever

I have an astrocam too and slowly getting to grips witwith it alalthough I haven't really tried the NB route properly, good fun though especially fro. Garden

[Luke]

Anyways, I have yet to meet a telescope I didn't like! I remember hearing about someone getting a 30 inch dob. Can you imagine? Wow! My most used scope at the mo is my 60mm, as it makes a nice grab and go scope for solar visual and imaging using of course safety solar filters.

[DaveS]

 BTW if yout after a mesu i know a guy pm me.

24"

Ah, I've a few horrid big bills coming in the near future that'll make a Mesu look like chicken-feed. Just had a complete re-wire done, some re-painting coming up, perhaps new hardwood flooring and a new kitchen coming in at the beginning of December. I reckon the whole lot will hit £30k, or perhaps more

[Daniel-K]

Ah, I've a few horrid big bills coming in the near future that'll make a Mesu look like chicken-feed. Just had a complete re-wire done, some re-painting coming up, perhaps new hardwood flooring and a new kitchen coming in at the beginning of December. I reckon the whole lot will hit £30k, or perhaps more

 whats a few extra 000's just tell MRS S its real wood and buy balterio laminate she will never know the difference..... yes i am a bad influence     

[DaveS]

There is no Mrs S so I can do what I want without getting an earful or worse. I can afford it, easily but don't want to go on a mad spending spree.

*sigh* "Mrs S" was what they called mum at work.

[Scooot]

I spend nearly all my time viewing from my garden with my 10" and I thoroughly enjoy it even though it would be much better with less light pollution. I expect I'll do exactly the same with the 16" that's currently on order although I don't expect to use it as much as I currently use the 10" . Even so I'm hoping your not totally right Nick

However in the back of my mind I've been thinking about video astronomy, I like visual and I'm thinking that at sometime in the future I might be able to stick a camera in the 16" focuser with such short exposures displaying on the screen it will be like visual with a 48" dob.

Here's hoping ....

[Daniel-K]

There is no Mrs S so I can do what I want without getting an earful or worse. I can afford it, easily but don't want to go on a mad spending spree.

*sigh* "Mrs S" was what they called mum at work.

living the dream ah Dave good luck 

[bomberbaz]

Even though i do a little video stuff as previously mentioned and is thoroughly enjoyable thwre is something just that bit more special when the photons are hitting your own retina in my opinion.

[swamp thing]

I will say this one thing.

Anyone that thinks setting up a large dob is hard work really doesn't understand quite how lazy I am. Trust me I'm lazy and I have a 20" Dob. If it was hard work........no chance would I do it

I planned my large dob to be as labour free as possible, believe me job done. its so easy my seventy three year old dad has done it on his own........i know i sat drinking a beer as I watched him

[gooseholla]

I own a 4.3" mak, a 12" dob and I am currently building an 18" dob. My first scope was an 8" Newtonian. As an all rounder this size was perfect. The images were respectable and it was light and easy to set up.

The 4.3" mak gives lovely, if faint, images. So far my only view of the galaxies in Virgo and Coma have been with this scope. However, if all I owned was this scope, I'd be getting bored of "oh, another smudge" - even on larger galaxies and globs! You really have to know what you are looking for and where it is, and be dark adapted, else you are liable to miss what you are looking for. So is a small scope really the perfect scope for a light polluted area, where you can never fully dark adapt and faint images are washed out?

My 12" gives views of near enough anything I want to seek out. I'd be happy at this size for many years to come if the opportunity to go bigger hadn't of come along. It gives good images from my back garden, is still easy to set up quickly and didn't cost a fortune.

8 - 12" in a reflector range is hardly big anymore, although as someone said, imagine someone from 50 years ago marvelling at them. But no one should feel inadequate owning a scope in this range. Also, no one should be made to feel bad for owning larger! So it comes down to the perfect scope is the one that you use the most. If you cannot physically set up a large scope, it isn't right for you, no matter the potential images it will show you. Astronomy is not a one-size fits all hobby. Go big or stay small, but enjoy. Also, you're probably going to need more than a few scopes to view everything adequately !

[Special K]

That old fickle Eye, you know the one I mean.

It's satisfied with starter glass, of a budget far too lean.

With leaps and bounds it searches the sky

For the views which are bright and true

And as it grows it demands more goods

From the likes of Takahashi, Tal and Televue

This journey once started will rarely end short

Of an awe inspired sight or happy report

All it takes is a glimpse through the 'frac of a friend

To feed the desire for an ever-more-heavenly rig

Or a climb up the ladder for a sight from that dob

To commit to a cause which is costly and big

'Tis this bending and bouncing and refracting of Light

That keep the Eyes searching through the darkness of night

There's no reason to question why it gets done

Through tubes which are huge or funnels so small

But for the gas and the stars and the bright bundled fire

The reds and the blues, and for the wonder of all

[John]

......8 - 12" in a reflector range is hardly big anymore, although as someone said, imagine someone from 50 years ago marvelling at them. But no one should feel inadequate owning a scope in this range. Also, no one should be made to feel bad for owning larger! So it comes down to the perfect scope is the one that you use the most. If you cannot physically set up a large scope, it isn't right for you, no matter the potential images it will show you. Astronomy is not a one-size fits all hobby. Go big or stay small, but enjoy. Also, you're probably going to need more than a few scopes to view everything adequately !

I agree 100% with this John. I'd go a bit further and suggest that nobody should feel inadequate about the equipment they own whatever it's specification, cost, quality etc.

Most of the very best observing reports I read on this forum are from observers who are using quite modest equipment but they have become very skilled in using it and getting the best out of it and the conditions they observe under. Often they have managed to spot things that I've yet to manage despite the fact that I might have a larger scope available.

I find that these are the folks that motivate me to try and do better, to extend myself and my equipment and to seek more challenging targets.

It's a great challenge for the forum I feel, to help folks do the very best they can with the equipment they currently have by demonstrating just what is possible

[cuivenion]

Well I'm picking up my second scope from sheffield on Saturday, it's a Skywatcher Explorer 200p on an EQ5. It'll be interesting to see how much better the views get after using a 130p for the past year. I'm still keeping the 130p though, I'm thinking of using it as a budget AP scope.

The 130p has been very easy to move around, and theres a lot to be seen through it. I think as for as portabilty and optics go it makes a cracking starter scope.

[Qualia]

Just a few things to think about, particularly for beginners with small scopes thinking of going big....I've so great deal of time for my 8" f6 Newt . There's plenty achievable targets, planets, planetary nebulae,lunar, stars, clusters and the brighter galaxies.

Aye, it's a good post, Nick and much for folk to mull over.

My own concern is not that experienced astronomers would now want to purchase a bigger scope to tweak out ever finer detail but that newcomers may possibly have unrealistic expectations about what the scope involves. I'm thinking in terms of what it will show them, or the possible difficulties it may throw up in learning to use properly, or that it may be too heavy and cumbersome and a pain to drag out on a cold night.

Most experienced observers probably have a small arsenal of scopes to choose from but not your newcomer. In that sense, while the seasoned observer can choose fitting to the occassion, the newcomer ought to be more swayed by the telescope that is easy to set up and use. It would certainly be tragic, if someone bought a big scope only to discover that it was too big and too heavy and too much of a hassle to use regularly.

When stargazing, then, I feel that simplicity is the answer. I'm sure the most used telescopes on SGL are those that require little or no fuss. For me this means my 10" or one of the fracs, for another it will mean something different. In this context, the more cumbersome scopes are more than likely already for the seasoned astronomer who ought to know what they're getting in to. 

Ultimately, the best position an astronomer can be in is the desire of always wanting more - in whatever manner one wishes to intrepret 'more'. More knowledge of the night sky, more understanding of the evolution of stars, more clear nights, more darker skies, to see more detail, to have more aperture, more scopes and eyepieces, or whatever. Starting out and progressing along these avenues-of-more in a simple and orderly fashion makes it easier at each stage to measure one's commitment and interest.

If the more-scope bug eventually takes a bite, so be it. Assuming that it isn't your average beginner wanting another dob or frac more than the one they don't own, surely that highlights the astronomy-stargazing bug has bitten deep. That all the compromises and expenses have been taken into account and one is still willing to give it a shot. For some this more-scope may mean stepping up to the 16", for another it may mean purchasing a small 3" richfield apo. In either case, to my mind it indicates a moment for celebration. 

[jetstream]

Great thread Nick!  Your 8" f6 dob recommendation is a very solid one for many reasons, such as price, portability, nice aperture and eyepiece friendliness. An excellent place to start or end up. Oh and lets not forget the nice large sweet spot, great for planetary and also great if collimation isn't perfect. I wish I had started with one instead of my 90mm frac for sure.

[Paul73]

why patronize people who already own big dobs then?

people with big dob like me want the best that this hobby can give. buying big dobs expensive glass and traveling to dark skies only a handful of astronomers ever get to see  is truly out of this world. all the effort that goes into getting to these place's with big scopes or even modest sized scopes is sight i believe every amateur astronomer should get to see.

little scopes are handy for trowing out in between the clouds but are you really happy looking at a faint smudge?? get 10" DOB and resolve that GLOB to the core! seeing space in between the stars at 300x is truly breathtaking and seeing spiral structure and HA regions in galaxies. 

how much would a 16" frac cost you compared to a 16" meade or revelation dob to get the same image scale? tens of thousands! each have their own advantage's, if you like small faint patch's of fuzzy nothings stick with your national geographic scopes and you will never truly experience being an astronomer .

Daniel

Please accept my sincerest apologies if my clumsy attempt at humour came across as patronising. That was definitely not the intention. Maybe I should have considered my words more carefully rather than dashing something off on my way out to the pub.

For what it is worth, I greatly enjoy your (& others) tales of dark sky, big aperture observing.

Having taken on board the balanced advice received from SGL members, I will be investing in a value 16" Dob for home use a soon as is politically possible. Then, when everyday life allows, a bigger portable Dob with gourmet optics will be purchased for dark sky trips. And, with a bit of luck this will involve both Ethoses and Jaffa Cakes.

Paul

PS. I'm a sucker for a good "Big Dob" thread. Did you like the link to Luc's 25"er thread?

[vlebo]

it is a dilemma ! I have been umming and arring for over two years now over what to go for. I think , for me , priority is ease of use i.e. setiing up and breaking down and portability over huge aperture. kinda narrowed it down to a C9.25 on a Alt Az mount or a 152 mm wide field achro , again , on an alt az . But I do find myself looking at the larger dobs like the Flextube 12" or 14" which are big and bulky and even the Orion Opticc VX 12" which does seem a good combo of good aperture with portability. I think the astronomer in us does lend itself to us always going for the max in aperture but , unfortunately , this is not always the mosty practical option.

[bomberbaz]

it is a dilemma ! I have been umming and arring for over two years now over what to go for. I think , for me , priority is ease of use i.e. setiing up and breaking down and portability over huge aperture. kinda narrowed it down to a C9.25 on a Alt Az mount or a 152 mm wide field achro , again , on an alt az . But I do find myself looking at the larger dobs like the Flextube 12" or 14" which are big and bulky and even the Orion Opticc VX 12" which does seem a good combo of good aperture with portability. I think the astronomer in us does lend itself to us always going for the max in aperture but , unfortunately , this is not always the mosty practical option.

Get a 12" flextube. I believe the 14" is a bit of a step up from the 12. The 12 however is no big deal to handle and stores away with a footprint of about 20x20 at a height of 3.5 feet. You will love one and tbh fits my bill of aperture, ease of use/handling/setup nd storage perfectly.