To buy, to build or to not bother?

[ShrewView]

After some great nights for astro recently, I've again started pondering the benefits of having an obsy in the garden, especially as I may have some time on my hands this year.

I normally observe from a spot near the house, which is good in terms of the views to the east, south and west. It’s also ideal for when I want to pop indoors for a cuppa or for when I want to grab another bit of kit or check stellarium on the laptop.  The downsides to this are the neighbours’ lights and the fact that I must keep three scopes in the dining room and cart one or more out each time.

I’ve identified a site which avoids any direct lighting from streetlamps or neighbours’ houses. Trees are a bit more of an issue though, so views will be more limited, although north will be better without my house in the way. Not sure of size but I laid out some canes that felt about right at 12x8 ish.

So, onto my questions to you good folk. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the following?

1.        Building something

2.             Buying or converting something like a robust shed
3.             Just sinking a pier in the spot I’m thinking of and see how I go?

My initial thought was to convert a bought shed but then I thought maybe I should build something. I can imagine getting hold of materials will be a problem for a while so I’m just at the planning stage really and I’m scavenging for ideas from the great build threads on here.

My interests are probably a 70:30 split between visual and some basic imaging.

I suppose my greatest reservation to doing this is the cost. After all I could probably buy a lovely big dob for the price of an obsy, but then where would I keep it?

 

[saac]

I would recommend a permanent setup 100%  -it makes life so much easier. The only caveat I would put on that, I think it now applies to all astro investments,  given our weather do you see yourself getting a return on the investment.  If you can answer yes to that then go for it you will not regret it. Many will advise not to go down the converted shed root citing concerns over strength and the difficult task of reinforcing the design.  I don't support that view having converted a commercially available summer house. If you are adept at DIY then making the necessary changes to reinforce a shed is simple.  What I would also recommend is to take a look at Skipper Billy's set up - a small form factor obsy which is designed to safely house the telescope and mount only.  This would save a lot on materials and space but would probably be best suited to imaging rather than visual - or I dare say you could mount it on rails and have the structure push away. Other than that many people do make a success of just having the pier without a structure around it; you find a few example on the forum.  Anyway, keep us informed as to which way you go and good luck.   

 

Jim 

Edited April 6, 2020 by saac

[RAR_MI_USA]

I would say, of course depending on how much you would use and enjoy it, to build one if you believe it will be of use. The best and cheaper method would be to use mostly re-purposed wood, but I am not sure what is available or feasible over there in the UK. Here in the states, decent used wood is plentiful at times, although one must do a little work to get it and then make it usable. All one needs to do is scope out the back lots of local businesses, later bring their trailer, dismantle large crates and other wooden partitions (no skids), and load up. When you get it home, you must further tear it down to separate the usable pieces, and discard the rest. With a little time, one can accumulate enough material to either get a good start and even finish the project at home within a few months or sooner, depending on their enthusiasm. Of course, one must be competent and have all the proper tools to build too. I did this myself a few years back and managed to built two completely finished units, a garden house and a storage shed, and my entire cost was the price of screws and nails.

[Skipper Billy]

If you want to see my humble efforts mine is here just to save you searching!

https://www.davidbanksastro.com/micro-observatory

 

[Davey-T]

12 X 8 is a bit overkill unless you have a 12" Newt' or similar especially given that the price of timber seems to go up weekly, 8 X 8 is plenty big enough, maybe an obs'y controlled from indoors when imaging then you won't need a warm room.

On the shed converting subject you could use a plastic shed, just needs some flagstones for a base then easily erected by one person in a weekend and converted to RoR at your leisure.

Dave

 

[Alan White]

I am in a similar position, but have built and observing area to date.

Now at the I need a pier stage, all in plan at the present time of course.
An observatory would be nice, but just a pier and mount ready to go should save a lot of time set up and take down.

Be interested to see which way you go, good luck with it.
 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Alan White

[ShrewView]

Some great ideas there thanks. More pondering required. I did at least clear the patch a little more today so have a better idea of space, even if I don't need it all.

Skipper Billy. Love the obsy and a great website and images. interesting to see your changes in scopes and the mock up you did of the scope to check it fitted your planned build. great idea.

[mikeDnight]

I built mine back in 2011 and haven't regretted it for one minute. It's 8' by 7' and 6'.6" tall from the inside floor level. I thought about buying a ready built shed, but they aren't really that strong unless you pay the earth. So I built mine out of 3/4" Ply on a 3" by 2" frame, then covered the outside with white plastic cladding.The runoff roof is on an angle iron H frame and although its heavy, it rolls at the touch of a finger - almost! The roof itself is covered with rubber roofing sheet thats glued to the ply. The floor is 3/4" ply on 4" joists which rest on a low concrete wall. Inside i wanted it to be as comfortable as possible, as well as being as dark as possible. The floor and walls are covered with black rubber matting that absorbs light, keeps things looking tidy and keeps your feet warm. It's my padded cell!

I made the mistake of building it on my driveway, with the intention of dismantling the wall sections and carrying it up the garden to reassemble it . Each wall weighed a ton. So if you build your own, I'd suggest you build it in situ. 

The pier is Steel and sinks into concrete by at least 18". It stands about 5 feet high above floor level with the equatorial head on top, and is as solid as a rock. The pier was made by a local sheet metal worker and cost £35. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by mikeDnight

[JamesF]

The ability to just walk out, get rid of the roof, take the lens caps off and be using the telescope transforms astronomy as far as I'm concerned.  It makes everything so easy.  If the sky is a bit mixed you can still go out and do something knowing that if it all goes pear-shaped you just put the roof back on and you're sorted.  If a pier (perhaps with a mount on top, under a cover) is all you can do then it's still better than nothing, but a permanent building is, for me, far better.

I went for building my own "shed" from the ground up as I've bought a number of pre-fab sheds over the last ten years and none of them have really impressed me.  If I built it myself I was at least assured that it would be made to a standard I found acceptable.  If you are going to modify a pre-fab shed then I'd suggest only going with something you've actually seen "in the flesh" first, so you know what you're actually getting for your money.

For what mine has cost so far I could have had a large and very nice dob, but then I'd still be stuck with guessing whether the weather was going to be good enough to make it worthwhile dragging it out to cool down and putting it away again and the end of the night when I was tired and so on.  And I did go a bit overboard.  I built a 2.4m x 4.8m combined scope room and warm room with three piers.  And now I've just about finished ironing the bugs out of everything so I can use it for imaging I shall be moving my 10" dob in so when conditions are obviously going to be good enough I can kick off multiple imaging sessions and lift the dob out to do a bit of visual at the same time.

James

[Gina]

I built my own from scratch.  Obtained timber from a local timber yard and had it delivered which was free for the considerable amount of timber I bought (about £600 as I recall in two loads).  That was for a two room observatory - scope and warm room.  8ft square scope room and slightly smaller warm room with ROR going over warm room.  If I were to do it now I would go for something smaller as I do imaging only.  I have certainly never regretted building it and it has been a godsend with the fickle weather we get in the UK.  Everything ready to go - just open the roof.  It's a very strong construction and nothing like the lightweight construction of the usual garden shed!

[ShrewView]

Some more great info. Thanks. sounds like a scope space around 8x8 is looking fairly likely to start with.

Mike your obsy looks nicer than some of the rooms in my home! Lovely. My initial feeling was to go for a roll off roof and I had ideas of maybe a decking area under the supports for the roll off bit. just to use the space. I know the rubberised flooring is anti slip but we had something similar at work that actually was a bit slippy when wet, does dew cause any issues?

James thanks, take your point about standard sheds, some are pretty flimsy with thin chipboard roof clearly holding the sides up. I suppose my thoughts on converting were based on what I did I with my dad when I first got into astro in the 80s, where we converted a shed to have a side that folded down. it lasted 30 years, but then that was only one side compromised. I think what I'm probably aiming for is a situation like yours where one scope can be permanently mounted and I can use it for either visual or if taking a few images, I can use another outside for visual. 

Gina, thanks. I do like the idea of a warm room, just as a place to shelter for a few minutes and to set up a laptop to check stellarium etc while I'm there. I'm more visual than imaging, at this point at least.

 

[Gina]

You might be interested in my build threads but warning - a lot to read!  Several attempts at ROR wheels and track but best (and has proved excellent) is FH Brundle 120mm rolling gate wheels and track.  I used the half-round profile but others have used the V profile and there seems little difference in use.  My roof moves easily by hand even though it's pretty heavy.  There are a few more minor alterations but that's the main one.  I've nearly finished remote controlled motor drive for the roof but that wouldn't be needed for visual as you would be there anyway.

On 25/12/2013 at 20:24, Gina said:

For reference, here is a list of my observatory threads :-

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/103600-ginas-observatory/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/116563-ginas-observatory-the-build/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/173015-ginas-observatory-build-abbreviated-final-design-aspects/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/172981-ginas-observatory-build-abbreviated-overview/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/172984-ginas-observatory-build-abbreviated-site-preparation/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/172985-ginas-observatory-build-abbreviated-main-construction/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/166337-ginas-observatory-roll-off-roof-automation/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/172972-ginas-observatory-build-abbreviated-pier-construction/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/185706-ginas-observatory-build-abbreviated-pier-head-adapter/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/197084-pier-head-modifications-for-eq8/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/197589-preparations-for-new-eq8-mount/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/197940-ideas-for-pier-extension/
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/172986-ginas-observatory-build-abbreviated-finishing-touches-and-improvements/
 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Gina

[JamesF]

58 minutes ago, ShrewView said:

James thanks, take your point about standard sheds, some are pretty flimsy with thin chipboard roof clearly holding the sides up. I suppose my thoughts on converting were based on what I did I with my dad when I first got into astro in the 80s, where we converted a shed to have a side that folded down. it lasted 30 years, but then that was only one side compromised.

My worries with ordering a shed I'd not seen would be that often the materials used are really quite poor -- inadequately seasoned timber for example, that warps and cracks after a couple of years out in the elements, or full of knots that pop out and compromise the "weatherproofness" of the shed.  Also many of them are just held together with staples that aren't really up to withstanding some of our more stormy weather.

If you can find one that looks solid though, I'd not want to dissuade you from attempting a conversion if you think that's what would suit you best.  I would suggest ignoring any felt roofing and replacing it with EPDM however.  It's far more robust and waterproof.

James

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, ShrewView said:

Some more great info. Thanks. sounds like a scope space around 8x8 is looking fairly likely to start with.

Mike your obsy looks nicer than some of the rooms in my home! Lovely. My initial feeling was to go for a roll off roof and I had ideas of maybe a decking area under the supports for the roll off bit. just to use the space. I know the rubberised flooring is anti slip but we had something similar at work that actually was a bit slippy when wet, does dew cause any issues?

James thanks, take your point about standard sheds, some are pretty flimsy with thin chipboard roof clearly holding the sides up. I suppose my thoughts on converting were based on what I did I with my dad when I first got into astro in the 80s, where we converted a shed to have a side that folded down. it lasted 30 years, but then that was only one side compromised. I think what I'm probably aiming for is a situation like yours where one scope can be permanently mounted and I can use it for either visual or if taking a few images, I can use another outside for visual. 

Gina, thanks. I do like the idea of a warm room, just as a place to shelter for a few minutes and to set up a laptop to check stellarium etc while I'm there. I'm more visual than imaging, at this point at least.

 

The interlocking rubber matting I used is not slippery at all. During the winter months the floor does get wet despite a door mat, but I've not slipped yet. Also I have absolutely no dew issues.  The observatories plastic cladding has an air space and the matting on the inside walls acts as insulation too. The inside of the roof and the 3" by 2" frame is painted with iron oxide, which is pretty tough stuff and seems to help in prevention of mould growth. At least I've experienced no issues so far.  

The observatory, being white, reflects the Sun, so it stays quite cool even in summer. In winter, after I've observed, I often switch on the electric heater for a short time just to keep things dry, but so far the building is as good as new 9 years on.

Also, it seems spiders don't like rubber matting as I hardly ever get any wickies moving in.

Edited April 7, 2020 by mikeDnight

[ollypenrice]

The smallest workable observing shed is almost certainly of the 'rolling sentry box' kind because the sentry box in question is too small to accommodate the observer and must be rolled off to expose the scope. Once rolled off it can have a drop down desk and bench, or a protruding pod, which can serve as an office for star charts, mugs of tea, pints of foaming ale or whatever. I've built three of these and been pleased with them. Here's one of them about to be moved to a different location (a secondary advantage of this design)

Open the doors, roll it back and the scope's inside. But I missed a trick when I made this and went to the bother of welding up a steel space frame then claddng it in timber. There is a MUCH easier way which I'd use next time...

Construct your rails and pier, buy a piece of good strong marine ply the size of your chosen shed's footprint, screw 4 wheels to the bottom and place this as a rolling platform on your rails. Cut a slot half way into this base so it can roll forward till the pier is in the middle. Now simply assemble your bog standard garden toolshed on the rolling base. It can be a nice wooden one or a nasty but practical plastic one but the choice is yours. It can even be a lovely garden chalet style structure such as Singlin's (in this section, I think.) This is just so easy.

If you don't want a pier but just a concrete block for a Dob then just make a concrete block and let the rolling base run up to and away from that. If the block or pier has protrusions just above the height of the rolling base it will serve as an anti-lift device - which is essential. Please read that twice!

Olly

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by ollypenrice

[Timebandit]

 

 

Personally I would certainly recommend some sort of outside obs. Some of the benefits are that the equipment is then at near ambient temperature already, so little or no cool down time for your scope. No need to go through the house carrying all your equipment outside. Saves you time, saves your back also and all the problems of moving kit . Lots of benefits to an obs

Now what to go for. Well in my opinion depends if your mostly visual or AP. How much time you wish to invest in your obs. And how much money you have to spend. I needed something sensibly priced and functional. So I went for a standard shed (on sale at the time) and some mods to make it a sensibly functional obs for very sensible money. It also acts as a bit of a man cave I can go and hide in at times☺. But I do recommend some type of obs within your budget/time restraints, as it makes this hobby so much easier and more fun.

Hope this helps 

 

 

 

[Whistlin Bob]

Mostly agreed with the points on here. I converted a small shed to an obsy and it's been brilliant for making sure I get out there if the weather's ok. It's especially good when the forecast is a bit dodgy but the sky looks ok- I just get on with it which I probably wouldn't if I thought it was unlikely to last. I've had several good sessions that I would otherwise have missed. 

I did buy a cheap shed off the internet and it's mostly ok after 2 winters- I bought from Tiger sheds- you can tell it's built to a price but so long as I maintain it I'm not worried about how long it's going to last. Where I definitely agree with the other posters is on size- I fitted a 5x7 into the space I had and even though it's imaging only I wish I'd gone bigger. Otherwise no regrets.

This is also an excuse to link to the time lapse I did of the build 😁

 

[souls33k3r]

46 minutes ago, Whistlin Bob said:

Mostly agreed with the points on here. I converted a small shed to an obsy and it's been brilliant for making sure I get out there if the weather's ok. It's especially good when the forecast is a bit dodgy but the sky looks ok- I just get on with it which I probably wouldn't if I thought it was unlikely to last. I've had several good sessions that I would otherwise have missed. 

I did buy a cheap shed off the internet and it's mostly ok after 2 winters- I bought from Tiger sheds- you can tell it's built to a price but so long as I maintain it I'm not worried about how long it's going to last. Where I definitely agree with the other posters is on size- I fitted a 5x7 into the space I had and even though it's imaging only I wish I'd gone bigger. Otherwise no regrets.

This is also an excuse to link to the time lapse I did of the build 😁

 

That's a might fine video. Mind if I ask which particular shed (link would be awesome). Also would love to see the roof sliding in action and how are you locking it down. 

[old_eyes]

I saw @Ollypenrice roll-off and roll-out sheds when I visited him. Very impressive and I nearly went for that option. Instead I built a roll-off roof obsy with a scope and warm room last summer/autumn.

I have to say it was a great decision and has revolutionised my enjoyment of the hobby. Across the last winter season I have probably taken advantage of at least 4x the opportunities that present themselves in our cloudy part of the world. Pretty much every green block on Clear Outside that started before midnight I have been out doing something. If you can start up in under 10 mins, and guarantee that you can go back to the same taget night after night, then truly the world is the mollusc of your choice!

The wins:

• I image more often - not deterred by set up time and the risk of cloud
• I image more adventurously - because I know I don't have to try and get all the data in one night. Having been strictly an OSC person, on the grounds that at least yuou get something each session, I am now thinking about adding mono and narrowband.
• I do the set-up trials and fettling of the rig that I know I should have done, because I am not paranoid about using every minut under a clear sky to collect actual data. For the first time I have good polar alignment because previously I just did a PoleMaster alignment as fast as I could and hoped for the best. Disturbingly, I am now learning a lot more about what is wrong with my rig and what needs fixing and optimising 😲.
• I get more sleep per imaging hour as I am now happy to leave the rig running if the forecast is OK.

I though it would be really good, but I did not understand how insanely beneficial it would be.

As we go into the summer fallow period (we have no astro-dark from early May to late July), I already have a list of tweaks, modifications and improvements.

I did look at the 'convert a shed' option for an ROR, but in the end decided that most reasonably priced garden sheds are not very strong and you can end up having to make extensive modifications to give it back some rigidity once you have made the roof removable.

If you want to scare yourself there is a list of my costs towards the end of my build thread (21/11/19).

[Dr Strange]

It really makes a difference in observing time spent so I would strongly recommend it. I started with a dome:

found it too difficult to bend my 198cm frame into and switched to a shed. In America we have something called a Tough Shed. I opted for the 10x10. I went a bit contrarian for the roof due to space constraints. They assemble it on site as part of the cost and I told them to keep the roof off. Myself and a couple of mates put that on. We used garage door rollers and track. simple. And I went for two 5 foot segments instead of one 10 foot roll off piece. Here is some build photos including the cantilevers  for the split roof. I have:

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SWMBO said no pier unless the tripod option didn't work. So I had to do that first. As seen here:

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Everything is weatherized and water proof. I have flashing where the roof meets to keep rain out. The only challenge is bugs and rodents. I treat for both every other month and don't have insulation in the walls (I sheeted them with 1/2" sanded ply because that way I don't have to tape or mud drywall and can use regular nails instead of drywall screws to hang things) to stop nesting attempts. Oh and I have a Parson's Jack Russell which keeps the majority of animals out too. He is quite ferocious. The local squirrels, raccoons, possums, and feral cats went through a very Darwinian process of learning that he was able to make a 1.83m standing vertical jump to the top of the retaining wall and grab them. Fun fact. Dogs can watch TV. It has to be HD but it can be very entertaining for them. Mine loves to watch animal planet and shark week. He positively *HATES* sharks! The best is when he sees an animal on the screen but the sound comes from below via a speaker. He tries to reconcile that. I try hard not to laugh since it hurts his pride...

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[Chris]

I did option 2 (converted a robust shed). This was a couple of houses ago now so I've been without for years and have missed it. Now I'm permanently settled I'm gearing up for another shed conversion.

This is the thread for my first build, and it would never have happened if I hadn't of asked a million questions on SGL (I'm fairly sure I drove people mad at the time )

 

 

 

[james_screech]

18 hours ago, Whistlin Bob said:

Mostly agreed with the points on here. I converted a small shed to an obsy and it's been brilliant for making sure I get out there if the weather's ok. It's especially good when the forecast is a bit dodgy but the sky looks ok- I just get on with it which I probably wouldn't if I thought it was unlikely to last. I've had several good sessions that I would otherwise have missed. 

I did buy a cheap shed off the internet and it's mostly ok after 2 winters- I bought from Tiger sheds- you can tell it's built to a price but so long as I maintain it I'm not worried about how long it's going to last. Where I definitely agree with the other posters is on size- I fitted a 5x7 into the space I had and even though it's imaging only I wish I'd gone bigger. Otherwise no regrets.

This is also an excuse to link to the time lapse I did of the build 😁

 

Very interesting build, could you post details of how the roof works.

Thanks
James

[Chris]

18 hours ago, Whistlin Bob said:

Mostly agreed with the points on here. I converted a small shed to an obsy and it's been brilliant for making sure I get out there if the weather's ok. It's especially good when the forecast is a bit dodgy but the sky looks ok- I just get on with it which I probably wouldn't if I thought it was unlikely to last. I've had several good sessions that I would otherwise have missed. 

I did buy a cheap shed off the internet and it's mostly ok after 2 winters- I bought from Tiger sheds- you can tell it's built to a price but so long as I maintain it I'm not worried about how long it's going to last. Where I definitely agree with the other posters is on size- I fitted a 5x7 into the space I had and even though it's imaging only I wish I'd gone bigger. Otherwise no regrets.

This is also an excuse to link to the time lapse I did of the build 😁

 

Cool video. How do you prevent the roof from leaking? 

[Whistlin Bob]

17 hours ago, souls33k3r said:

That's a might fine video. Mind if I ask which particular shed (link would be awesome). Also would love to see the roof sliding in action and how are you locking it down. 

Thanks! 😁 It came from Tiger sheds https://www.tigersheds.com/product/tiger-shiplap-windowless-apex-shed/

It's mostly ok- although the timber in the South facing wall has shrunk a bit and needs treating. 

26 minutes ago, james_screech said:

Very interesting build, could you post details of how the roof works.

The roof is pretty crude. I just felted the panels separately and bridged them with upside down guttering. It has small castors on the corners and on the wall edges to enable it to slide and then some handles near the apex that I use to lift them and hang them off the side walls. It's quite heavy and I doubt this would be feasible with a larger roof. It then locks in place with tower bolts that I had to bolt in place after 1 panel came off in high winds.



[Merlin66]

Many years ago I built the TSO (Tin Shed Observatory) based on a Canadian 8' x 6' Shed from Argos.

This worked well for me in the Uk, in Belgium and in Oz. The TSO IV is still in use here in Victoria,