New Setup for Astrophotography

[Gerry Casa Christiana]

Hello all

 

This is my first post and my name is Gerry I am not a complete newbie as I have done a lot of research on this and have had some experience in the past. I'm English but live in Italy. I hope we can have some really good discussions.

This is what I want to achieve I am interested in astrophotography for deep space. In fact I have a passion for it. I have done loads of research but I would like to ask some of the pros out there some questions that I don't seem to be finding the answers. Here it goes

I seem to have come to the conclusion that I need a apochromatic telescope with a field flattener but I have noticed that they are not cheap! Is there a another way I can do it cheaper and still get the same results?

I know everybody says that the Mount is paramount and 70% of your budget should be spent on it but if I am able for example to have an EQ 3–2 Mount with a auto guide on it will that not do the same as a more expensive mount? I notice for this man now you can buy a new motor and with a ST4 slot where you can add a separate Autoguider. Has anyone got experience with these? 

For example 
http://www.opticalvision.co.uk/astronomical_accessories-motor_drives_and_goto_upgrades/enhanced-dual-axis-motor-drive-for-eq3-2-mount.html

Last question. I have seen CCD autoguider  that also double up as a camera for deep space. Has anyone had any experience with these as I do not have a dslr so I can start this route if it's viable. 

Yes I know it's a lot of questions but until I get this straight I can't make the right purchase. 

Any suggestions that you would have I would be very grateful to hear them.

Many thanks in advance

Gerry

[MarkyD]

I'm fairly new as well.  I use a 200D-PS Newt on a NEQ6 mount with a DLSR and coma corrector.  I haven't yet used auto guiding but I have the kit for it :0).  I just set up the mount and let it track itself which so far has achieved some results I am happy with.  I would say get as good a mount as you can afford.

[swag72]

Before you spend a penny get hold of a copy of the book 'making Every Photon Count' available from the book section of the FLO website. Something of an imagers bible, this should be read once, twice and thrice ..... then think about what you need and why....if you still don;t know, then read it again!!

Take a look at the Imaging section and there you can see the sorts of pictures that people are taking, they will generally say what kit they have used as well..... will give you some ideas. 

The mount is THE most important part of the rig...... did I say it was important?  In DSO imaging, you want to get long exposures and lots of them. Sure this involves guiding, but think about the ask you are making on a mount........ precision guiding on a tiny star for many an hour...... To that end you can of course image with an EQ3, but you are making life a little difficult and potentially very frustrating as you will end up throwing subs away. 

Be realistic about what you want to achieve... if you want to be up there with the best then you are going to have to spend a considerable amount of euros. If it could be done on the cheap, then trust me, we'd all be doing it  Just my ideas........ I'm sure that others will have others

[D4N]

The flat field is kinda important to get nice images, if you get a refractor you need a flattener or if you get a reflector you need a coma corrector.  You can however buy it later and just accept the fact that you will have to crop your images heavily to get rid of the artefacts.

The cameras that perform dual function of guiding and deep space imaging are generally not great at the latter but some nice images can be produced even so.

You need a mount that is capable of imaging with the scope you intend to use, you could get great images from a mount with a small refractor on it but if you stick a big long focal length reflector on it you will suddenly find it is unable to track the target well enough.

 

One thing that you need to remember is that astrophotography is expensive, you may be able to cut some corners but if you get it wrong you will end up buying twice.

[Waldemar]

Good results cost good money... no way around that...
Perfect results cost an incredible amount of money and take a very long time to get it right

You already got the best advice anybody can give you: buy that book!!! and read, read and read again.  That is where you will find your answers. Then think it over what you really want to achieve and start saving money.

Another option: Just do what you think is right, buy new (better) equipment on a regular basis, loose a lot of money, bump your head against the wall a couple of times and after a couple of years, while taking tranquilizers say you did it all by yourself...

Yet another option: win a nice price in the lottery and buy the best you can get for money, after spending quite some time of getting familiar with the equipment, you will have a nice time, when the weather permits... 

Personally (and I have been there...) if had to do it all over again,  I would take the easy road and choose for the first option. You do not have to invent the wheel... it is already available.

 

Waldemar

 

[steppenwolf]

Quote

I know everybody says that the Mount is paramount and 70% of your budget should be spent on it but if I am able for example to have an EQ 3–2 Mount with a auto guide on it will that not do the same as a more expensive mount?

There's a good reason that this is the common advice - it IS the right advice! An EQ3 *can* be used for deep sky imaging but it is the absolute minimum and then only for wide field imaging. Now, mounting a camera equipped with a camera lens on an EQ3 mount and capturing short exposures can result in some great wide-field images but you must accept its limitations. A heavier duty mount with a proper guiding system will allow you to take much longer exposures at different focal lengths and will make your life just so much easier.

I'd really recommend that you think very carefully about this as one route will lead to success, the other will lead to frustration and ultimately disappointment.

 

[Gerry Casa Christiana]

Hello all

Thank you for al your suggestions! I'm getting the book that's for sure I think that I'll have to make a decision though if I'm going to do this now and compromise on the equipment or save a lot more and get the proper gear! 

I think for now I'll get the book and read it over and over again until I get where I need to go next. 

Just to clarify one thing maybe it's in the book?! So a inferior mount with a Autoguider will not work well? 

I understand bigger scopes on a mount you are pushing things but what about say eq3 or eq5 with Autoguider but a refractor on top? Something like a Bresser 127/650? Would it be as rubbish as it is cheap? Not knocking anyone who has this setup but can descent photos be achieved. 

I think someone already answered I'll end up buying everything twice!

FLO? Sorry I'm not up on the jargon yet  

kind regards

Gerry

 

[Louis D]

I wonder if stacking a large number of shorter exposures using image registration software to align each frame properly to account for poor tracking would be an option for an EQ3 mount when starting out.  I've seen people using it for nontracked, wide angle exposures to good effect.

[kendg]

Good advice so far. Get and read the book.  When done you can decide what scope etc you want then total up the weight of everything multiply by 2 to get the capacity of the mount you need.  Rule of thumb for the more common mounts is to not exceed the load capacity by more than 50%. So for an Eq3 mount you are looking at less than 3kg of load for the scope, camera etc. Looking at a lot of posts about mounts for imaging it looks like a good starting point for a mount is along the lines of the HEQ5 or better. 

Most important is to do the research. 

[swag72]

9 hours ago, Gerry Casa Christiana said:

.......FLO? Sorry I'm not up on the jargon yet  ....

FLO - First Light Optics - The Forum sponsor. Click on the link at the top of SGL and it takes you to their website. In the book section is the book I've said about

[Stub Mandrel]

22 hours ago, Gerry Casa Christiana said:

I seem to have come to the conclusion that I need a apochromatic telescope with a field flattener but I have noticed that they are not cheap! Is there a another way I can do it cheaper and still get the same results?

Yes, look at the thread about the 130P-DS, with Coma Corrector its about £240 from FLO. I have so far had two sessions with mine and it delivers!

The EQ3 MOUNT is good for unguided exposures of up to about 90 seconds. I have used it with my 150PL (1200mm focal length) and it works excellently with the 130P-DS but you do need to 'tune' it carefully.

The EQ3 TRIPOD is too floppy by a long way. I did a lot to stiffen mine up, but in the end went for an EQ5 tripod.

[Gerry Casa Christiana]

13 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Yes, look at the thread about the 130P-DS, with Coma Corrector its about £240 from FLO. I have so far had two sessions with mine and it delivers!

The EQ3 MOUNT is good for unguided exposures of up to about 90 seconds. I have used it with my 150PL (1200mm focal length) and it works excellently with the 130P-DS but you do need to 'tune' it carefully.

The EQ3 TRIPOD is too floppy by a long way. I did a lot to stiffen mine up, but in the end went for an EQ5 tripod.

Can I ask what exactly is your setup? Those pictures are great! you must be very pleased. 

 

So big question how cheap is your complete setup? 

thanks!

 

[Gerry Casa Christiana]

19 hours ago, kendg said:

Good advice so far. Get and read the book.  When done you can decide what scope etc you want then total up the weight of everything multiply by 2 to get the capacity of the mount you need.  Rule of thumb for the more common mounts is to not exceed the load capacity by more than 50%. So for an Eq3 mount you are looking at less than 3kg of load for the scope, camera etc. Looking at a lot of posts about mounts for imaging it looks like a good starting point for a mount is along the lines of the HEQ5 or better. 

Most important is to do the research. 

oh when will astrophotography be cheap! 

ill be doing exactly what you advise thanks. I'm just hoping for a bargain somewhere. I'm one of those people who when they know what they want will not compromise for something inferior. 

I had better not research too much!

[kendg]

As the old saying goes. Good, cheap, easy. Pick 2. 

[Stub Mandrel]

9 hours ago, Gerry Casa Christiana said:

Can I ask what exactly is your setup? Those pictures are great! you must be very pleased. 

 

So big question how cheap is your complete setup? 

thanks!

 

You do realise that only a few photos near the end of that thread are mine? :-)

My most recent pictures were taken with a 130P-DS with coma corrector on EQ3-2 mount with polarscope and EQ5 tripod using an astro-modded Canon 450D with FLO camera adaptor, an ebay intervalometer, ebay moon and skyglow filter and home made GOTO system and a bahtinov mask for focusing.

I bought nearly everything secondhand and saved about 30% over new prices, but it does mean knowing what you want and waiting for a good deal, not grabbing the first thing that takes your eye.

Cost is hard to be exact as I bought a 150PL with EQ3 tripod and mount for £180 to get started, but if you include that total cost was about £500 - £550 including both scopes. You could use an RA drive motor for £70-90 instead of the goto box.

I don't include going down a frustrating alley with a Canon 10D (not sensitive enough and needed special memory cards, and card reader...) and various things (one or two bought in error) that I don't need for that sort of photography.

I've spent about £100 on software, most of mine is freeware or stuff I have already.

[spaceman_spiff]

On 31 July 2016 at 22:29, Gerry Casa Christiana said:

So a inferior mount with a Autoguider will not work well? 

In answer to this question, this setup will work with a small load (small refractor with a shortish focal length). But the mount will be susceptible to external vibrations mainly from the wind and your movements (so you will lose a significant number of subs). The main problem is that although you can use this as a cheap astrophotography rig it will not be future proof.

I started with an EQ5 pro which was auto guided and it could take a medium sized refractor (EvoStar 120, 1000mm FL) with a piggybacked ST80 guidescope. After tweaking it and proper balancing I could get 5min subs and maybe 60% of them would be usable. But I wanted to move on and the mount was holding me back, so I went for the AZ EQ6 which is an absolute delight. Now I take 3 or 5min subs and more than 90% of the subs are usable. 

The good news though is that the EQ5 now gets used with my planetary rig so you can reuse old equipment.

HTH Dan 

[Gerry Casa Christiana]

On August 2, 2016 at 12:16, spaceman_spiff said:

In answer to this question, this setup will work with a small load (small refractor with a shortish focal length). But the mount will be susceptible to external vibrations mainly from the wind and your movements (so you will lose a significant number of subs). The main problem is that although you can use this as a cheap astrophotography rig it will not be future proof.

I started with an EQ5 pro which was auto guided and it could take a medium sized refractor (EvoStar 120, 1000mm FL) with a piggybacked ST80 guidescope. After tweaking it and proper balancing I could get 5min subs and maybe 60% of them would be usable. But I wanted to move on and the mount was holding me back, so I went for the AZ EQ6 which is an absolute delight. Now I take 3 or 5min subs and more than 90% of the subs are usable. 

The good news though is that the EQ5 now gets used with my planetary rig so you can reuse old equipment.

HTH Dan 

Thanks Dan

That is very useful to know. Just what I was looking for. So I may start then with a eq5 and then add a RA motor to it which the new models have a Autoguider built in so then it's the telescope? 

Any suggestions that don't break the bank but refractors (lighter is better right) 

things are coming together 

Gerry 

 

[spaceman_spiff]

7 hours ago, Gerry Casa Christiana said:

That is very useful to know. Just what I was looking for. So I may start then with a eq5 and then add a RA motor to it which the new models have a Autoguider built in so then it's the telescope? 

Any suggestions that don't break the bank but refractors (lighter is better right)

I should probably say that at the time I bought the EQ5 I was not sure if I would get into astronomy as a hobby (living in a city, working long hours...etc) so I settled on this mount because it was not a huge investment and can be upgraded when required. If you are in the same scenario then the EQ5 is a good choice, but be aware of its limitations!

As for the scope, you say 'but for refractors', does this mean you are not looking for a refractor? Regardless, here are a selection of scopes I would consider (there will be others I missed):

- A small-medium sized good quality reflector (Skywatcher 130 PDS, or the 150 PDS), cheap and versatile, if you are interested in photography use the DS versions. Avoid suspiciously cheap reflectors on ebay, they may have spherical mirrors which will produce aberrations in the image (unless the scope has a large F ratio).

- A small ED Refractor (ED80), look second hand for one, may be a bit expensive but worth it. 

- A medium sized achromat, I only say this because I love my old evostar 120, it gives very clean, contrasty views with only a tinge of colour on bright objects. But it is a bit bulky! You can pick these up very cheap second hand.

HTH Dan. 

[Alan64]

This might be doable on an EQ-3...

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p5632_TS-50mm-f-6-6-APO-Doublet-Refractor---Day-Night-Scope-and-Tele-Objective.html

[Gerry Casa Christiana]

So does anyone recommend the skywatcher travel 120/650 they are supposed to be double apochromatic? 

They seem to be cheap I guess I must be missing something. 

 

Also everyone seems to recommend skywatcher are none of the other brands any good? 

[Alan64]

This is the 130mm f/5 Newtonian, with a 650mm focal-length, that's configured for imaging...

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130p-ds-ota.html

...or...

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p3933_Skywatcher-Explorer-130PDS---130mm-f-5-Newtonian---2--Crayford-focuser.html

Casual imaging, afocal and webcam, would be possible when mounted on an EQ-3.  For longer exposures with a DSLR, you'll need to up the ante on the mount, and to at least an EQ-5.  Also, Newtonians are inherently apochromatic.

Do you have experience with Newtonians?

[Louis D]

On 8/6/2016 at 10:40, Gerry Casa Christiana said:

Also everyone seems to recommend skywatcher are none of the other brands any good? 

There's plenty of good brands out there, it's just that they tend to be much more expensive than the Skywatcher series.  Check out this dedicated astrophotography scope, for example.

[Waldemar]

6 hours ago, Louis D said:

There's plenty of good brands out there, it's just that they tend to be much more expensive than the Skywatcher series.  Check out this dedicated astrophotography scope, for example.

That is comparing diamonds with pebbles, Louis. There is plenty of choice in between those two: Celestron, Meade, Orion, Bresser ... just to name a few. And probably they come from the same manufacturer in China.

But I agree, SW gives quite a bang for your bucks. 

[Louis D]

8 hours ago, Waldemar said:

That is comparing diamonds with pebbles, Louis.

I was just pointing out that there are other good brands if you're willing to pay the price.  I assumed the OP was already familiar with the major brands you mentioned, so I tossed one out there not so familiar to everyone, just as a price point of reference.  I could have also mentioned AP, TEC, RCOS, etc. as other imaging options.

[Stu]

On 6 August 2016 at 16:40, Gerry Casa Christiana said:

So does anyone recommend the skywatcher travel 120/650 they are supposed to be double apochromatic? 

They seem to be cheap I guess I must be missing something. 

 

Also everyone seems to recommend skywatcher are none of the other brands any good? 

I wouldn't recommend the 120mm f5 for imaging. Not sure what 'double apochromatic' means, but this scope is definitely an achromat and will show plenty of false colour aswell as potentially other abberations.

An ED80 on a decent mount is often the best place to start....