A culture of criticism?

[ollypenrice]

I come from the world of literary criticism in which the term 'criticism' does not have any pejurative connotation whatever.

It just means analysis, not 'finding fault.'

When we post images, what are we looking for in the response of fellow members and how far do we want constructive suggestions as to how to improve the image?

Different imagers will answer this question differently.

So how can we make sure that those posting images get the sort of conversation they want to engage in about their image? It seems reasonable to me that they have some say in the matter.

Should they give a hint? 'Constructive critism welcome.'

' I'm really pleased with this one' (ie don't rip it to shreds.)

'Is this too saturated/oversharpened/the wrong colour' etc etc.

To kick the ball rolling, when I post on the French forum it is very rare that my pictures don't elicit some considerable negative criticism. Too saturated, background sky too dark, corner stars not round (the only way you could tell that would be by downloading and enlarging, but they do.)

And you know, they are right.

So what should be the culture of criticism? A truly open question.

As for my stuff, kick hell out of it. I want to improve.

Olly

[smoggy]

"As for my stuff, kick hell out of it. I want to improve."

I think that goes for most of us and I would be surprised if others didn't agree with this. To me this sums up why I would post an image in the public domain in the first place.

If

[steppenwolf]

'Tis a difficult one this - not sure if your post was sparked by a discussion on this today or not but it would be disappointing to find that members were deliberately looking for fault to shoot one another down.

I am all for encouragement and hope that I give it but don't like some of the mutual backslapping that is found on some forums, it's meaningless and leads to amplified egos.

I think constructive criticism helps us all improve our techniques but the emphasis should be on constructive and not just a demolition job on someone's carefully executed work. By constructive I mean, if you have something slightly negative to say, explain why and offer a solution because if you are unable to offer a potential solution, you are not really qualified to offer a criticism in the first place, surely?

I'm happy to have my work 'peer reviewed', that's how I started to learn the craft and how I continue to learn it now.

[Ags]

I think if you are well-intentioned and constructive, you can't go far wrong. There are always nuances: if you say "The image is oversharpened" it sounds like you are saying the image is 'wrong', but saying 'I would use less sharpening as that avoids halos around the stars' sounds like a suggestion.

[ollypenrice]

'Tis a difficult one this - not sure if your post was sparked by a discussion on this today or not but it would be disappointing to find that members were deliberately looking for fault to shoot one another down.

I am all for encouragement and hope that I give it but don't like some of the mutual backslapping that is found on some forums, it's meaningless and leads to amplified egos.

I think constructive criticism helps us all improve our techniques but the emphasis should be on constructive and not just a demolition job on someone's carefully executed work. By constructive I mean, if you have something slightly negative to say, explain why and offer a solution because if you are unable to offer a potential solution, you are not really qualified to offer a criticism in the first place, surely?

I'm happy to have my work 'peer reviewed', that's how I started to learn the craft and how I continue to learn it now.

My post was sparked by an earlier post, Steve, in which you had, in my view, given courteous and positive support to the imager. I also agree about meaningless backslapping. And I thnk your phrase 'carefully executed work' rightly reminds us to be careful because people have worked hard to get where they are.

I hope we can all talk about this freely because the water is a bit muddy at the moment, I think.

Olly

PS Sorry, but I intended this to be in the Imaging Discussion section. More Olly incompetence! Constructive criticism superfluous 'cos I already know and am beyond help!

[Ant]

If I ever post an image (which lets face it, is a rare thing), I always put on there all comments welcome good or bad.

And I mean it. For people that see the image and like it and say just that - thats fine, everyone likes positive comments.

But when someone comes along who knows more and can see things that aren't right, they NEED to say so because without that we never learn. But it is also very important to give an explanation of what's wrong and suggest ways of improving.

So like Olly, for the record good and bad are welcome if I ever get to post another image!

Cheers

Ant

[MalJ]

I think if you are well-intentioned and constructive, you can't go far wrong. There are always nuances: if you say "The image is oversharpened" it sounds like you are saying the image is 'wrong', but saying 'I would use less sharpening as that avoids halos around the stars' sounds like a suggestion.

As a 'beginner' to Astronomy and 'Imaging' I would certainly appreciate the 'constructive' comment approach as that's the only way I, and others for that matter, are going to learn. By all means say there is something wrong with an image - but you have to explain what could be have been done to improve it.

There's nothing like 'criticism' to put people off posting on any forum!

[Pete Presland]

i have posted only a few photo's on here,the main reason i do is to receive advice/criticism or whatever you want to call it.its a good way to learn!

[johnrt]

I posted an image recently and went back and re-processed it 3 times based on really good feedback from a couple of people - and I'm more than happy that those involved made the comments they did because the image improved every time.

I don't value the "backslapping" posts - but some people who maybe don't image or who have just started out dont have anything to say about an image other than "That's excellent" or similar and it can be difficult to distinguish between them.

The key to criticism against shooting people and their images down is the way in which it is offered - as Steve said a great piece of criticism is accompanied by a suggestion, a solution or idea not just "too saturated" or "bad stars at the corners"

Ultimately I want to improve my images - thats why I post them here.

[harry page]

Hi Olly

well as you are obviousley no good at this imaging thing , I think its time you retired

I always try to give advice , as its the only way we all improve as we all know we can't see our own faults

Harry

[Photosbykev]

I think positive criticism with helpful suggestions on how to improve an image can only assist someone IF they want to be helped. So asking for a constructive critique is helpful to the viewer allowing them to respond in more detail rather than just saying 'nice image'. I do see that comment a lot and I'm guilty of using it myself but without a steer from the OP it is difficult to say anything else even if the image is obviously flawed.

I will take every scrap of help I can get to improve all of my photography

[barkis]

Criticism is a harsh word, and much better to say that voluntary, and constructive dialogue can be introduced when necessary, in order to foster improvements in imaging techniques. Either in capture or processing.

No one should ever feel reluctant to post their images, they certainly won't be criticised.

Ron.

[martin_h]

I personaly never post an image expecting a 'pat on the back', If I did...I'd never post one! I expect/need criticism to advance my hobby.

[RikM]

I am happy to receive any suggestions for improvement on any images that I post. I don't think I have had any purely negative comments. Mostly just very good suggestions for ways I can improve. 'Work on your polar alignment to get better star shapes'; 'increase the number of subs to reduce the noise in the image'; 'take another look at the colour balance'. In every case, sound advice that I have taken on board and a better image has been the result.

If someone posts an image that I think is very nice, I will say so. I don't consider that pointless 'backslapping'. I've not been at this too long and am not really experienced enough to be able to offer much constructive criticism as far as processing goes. If someone post a couple of alternative versions of an image, I will say which I prefer and why.

[pete_l]

A lot of people are not used to receiving criticism. The culture in schools seems to be to only praise the good, and not to mention the bad. Same with work lives: criticise someone and you could be accused of anything from sexism to bullying (or anything else, for that matter). As a consequence people can take it very personally and get quite defensive - especially when the criticism is in a public forum and therefore in the open for all to read.

Generally, I wouldn't say anything negative (even in a constructive way) about someone's image - just as I wouldn't criticise someone's spelling or grammar (or grandpa). Most people have the ability to self-critique: they know if an image they have produced passes muster - even if they aren't willing to admit to themselves when it doesn't.

However, if they bring up the subject and would ask for advice about a specific point, or ask a question that has a technical answer that I know, I'd be prepared to engage - but not to make general comments about their work.

[Sp@ce_d]

I think it's impolite.. no.. down rite rude.. to critique something without any analysis. Fair enough, if you just want to say that's nice. like it, etc.

Personally, I'll accept any help I can get so I want positive criticism and my stuff goes into Imaging - Image Processing, Help and Techniques

[astromerlin]

I personaly never post an image expecting a 'pat on the back', If I did...I'd never post one! I expect/need criticism to advance my hobby.

I dunno, The way the weather's been this summer I think most image posters should get a pat on the back.

Me, I'm tweaking gear to start imaging DSO's and waiting for the winter nights, but last year when I was imaging Jupiter I was very thankful for the constructive comments from other forum members which helped me develop better skills at imaging and processing.

IMO, there is more value in a constructive suggestion on improving ones imaging skills.

[Multi-Coated]

Ok ,I know nothing about imaging but am willing and trying to learn .

One thing though ,is it possible to please everybody's taste or is the whole point to be pleased with yourself and enjoy the results of your hobby and effort.

It would be quite sad not to be able to post my results in the spirit that they are shared , happy with the results regardless of basic errors.

Constructive criticism has a place and surly helps and is aimed as helpful advise in good spirit. I do feel though that some comments I've read on this forum are quite nasty or rude to say the least or when certain members post opinions the sheep follow suit frightened of looking out of place- so what !

Surly posted material is for all to see and comment and not just the chosen few skilled imagers.If some people have no manners then sod em. EDIT - This isn't in response to a specific previous thread or post but in general .

[MikeD]

Any criticism my images have received has 90% of the time resulted in a better image, so I'm happy to do the same if I think what I point out will have the same effect.

But you have to be careful, a lot of image processing is down to personal taste. My idea of what will makes a better image may not be the same as the creator of the image.

If I see an image and like it I will say so even if it's just " Nice Shot" I don't think it's backslapping it's just letting them know I like it.

Mike.

[pete_l]

But you have to be careful, a lot of image processing is down to personal taste. My idea of what will makes a better image may not be the same as the creator of the image.

On a purely technical point. Very few people have properly calibrated monitors. So it's quite possible that someone processed an image so that it looked good on their monitor with whatever colour/contrast settings they have, for whatever sort of room illumination they have (tungsten lights, daylight, CFLs etc). When they post it, no two viewers will see exactly the same image, as everyone else's monitor will be set up differently, depending on their circumstances.

[RikM]

On a purely technical point. Very few people have properly calibrated monitors. So it's quite possible that someone processed an image so that it looked good on their monitor with whatever colour/contrast settings they have, for whatever sort of room illumination they have (tungsten lights, daylight, CFLs etc). When they post it, no two viewers will see exactly the same image, as everyone else's monitor will be set up differently, depending on their circumstances.

I have been caught out by this. I tweaked one of my scanned-in sketches on my work PC and posted it from there. When I checked up on the thread from home I was horrified to see the ghastly mess I had made because of the difference in the monitors.

[Orion_the_Hunter]

Hi Olly, what's the name of the French forum you use?

Thanks.

[Macavity]

...or is the whole point to... enjoy the results of your hobby and effort.

Selectively edited. <G> Personally, an emphatic YES to the above! Some other great points too.

The opposite of "criticism" (even as a negative) is indifference? I have been surprised to receive NO reaction - Sometimes in response to direct and specific questions. Or rather I genuinely thank those who do take the trouble! But perhaps, with a majority looking for critique of their OWN work? I have (happily) given up striving for perfection, so critique interests me less than many. I see t'internet as leisure... More sociability than objectivity? But I realised, long ago, that such is not "the way of the scientist" [teasing]!

With such a diversity of equipment and techniques, it's hard to be "critical", outside one's area of interest? What is the poster actually trying to achieve? No "video" image is going to match up to the "standard" of large-chip, long exposures. I am more enthused by the (unusual) subject. The aesthetic delights of an - Albireo plus diffraction spikes, a "rare" image of Neptune and Triton etc. Just something different...

[mag10]

I come from the world of literary criticism in which the term 'criticism' does not have any pejurative connotation whatever.

It just means analysis, not 'finding fault.'

When we post images, what are we looking for in the response of fellow members and how far do we want constructive suggestions as to how to improve the image?

Different imagers will answer this question differently.

So how can we make sure that those posting images get the sort of conversation they want to engage in about their image? It seems reasonable to me that they have some say in the matter.

Should they give a hint? 'Constructive critism welcome.'

' I'm really pleased with this one' (ie don't rip it to shreds.)

'Is this too saturated/oversharpened/the wrong colour' etc etc.

To kick the ball rolling, when I post on the French forum it is very rare that my pictures don't elicit some considerable negative criticism. Too saturated, background sky too dark, corner stars not round (the only way you could tell that would be by downloading and enlarging, but they do.)

And you know, they are right.

So what should be the culture of criticism? A truly open question.

As for my stuff, kick hell out of it. I want to improve.

Olly

When I posted my picture two days ago I specifically asked for "critique" in the French sense, and spelling. (I completely understand Mr. Penrice's nuance, being French Canadian myself).

I think SGL is a unique place. Brits are a deeply civilized people who have a strong sense of community. It is a rare Brit who will say anything negative without having been specifically asked to do so.

Brits display their disaproval with silence (and maybe a sniff, if the issue is serious enough to warrant it).

When looking for advice on SGL, it is a simple matter of saying so clearly. The dividends are worth it.

I know first hand, and am much the better for it.

BTW I always enjoy Mr. Penrices' interventions. I think if I should ever vist France, his Gîte would be at the very top of my list.

[JohnnyD333]

Olly,

We do live in a culture of blind encouragement in which criticism has become a negative action. I live in the US, I teach here, and I worry about the culture of compliments with little to no critique. It is amazing to me how many students cannot handle a critique due to a life of being told they were perfect. I believe we will never grow intellectually if we cannot accept our imperfections and work at becoming better people. As a teacher my job is to open new ideas and worlds to students who may have never been interested in Science and Technology. I love to do it. But I also tell my students that they are the future and will become the innovators and trailblazers we need to move foward. In order to do that, there will be criticism and critique. This forum reflects that idea. We all become better with the advice and help of others. That is criticism. The word has developed the reputation as rude; it is not. There is a big difference between the two and I feel that SGL is one of those places that can see those differences.