A culture of criticism?

[ollypenrice]

Hi Olly, what's the name of the French forum you use?

Thanks.

Hi,

It's this one; Webastro - Communauté sur l'astronomie

Go; Forum - Le Coin des Observateurs - La Photo - Photos et Traitements.

For an example of the critical style of the commentaries, here's a recent picture of mine and the discussion which followed.

[Gal] Feux d'artifice - allumées!! - Forums d'astronomie Webastro

If you speak French you'll see that the style is quite different from SGL but it is not at all unpleasant.

Ron, for me the word 'criticism' in the sense of 'critical commentary' is not at all harsh but that's because I spent a professional life in literary criticism where the term carries none of its day to day implications. It really does just mean analysis. But you are right that it is a tricky word in English because of this double sense and opting for the French 'ctritique' does make the sense unambiguous. I guess that is why 'critique' has found its way into English. It's a good term to use, I think.

To summarize the thread, we seem to feel that the OP should give a clue as to the sort of conversation they hope to be starting?

Olly

[shaunster]

Criticism is the word for it, I dont want someone to offer me 'voluntary, and constructive dialogue' rather just get to the point and say it in a way so that I will understand it, there is no need to be rude about it and indeed on SGL I have never ever seen someones image be ripped apart by criticism and people saying thats a load of rubbish, its always constructive criticism that is offered on here..

[Moonshane]

I tend to agree that I have only ever seen encouraging criticism on SGL as (based only on what I read as I have no AP skill or experience) everyone who has ever tried AP knows just how hard it is to perfect.

In fairness to folk like me, all I can ever say is 'wow, that's superb' or 'brilliant image' or whatever as I don't have the knowledge to help anyone improve.

on the point of what an image should look like, and again in the knowledge that I know nothing, I feel that aside from technical issues like sharpness and stacking etc, the final look of an image is surely down to artistic interpretation as we are not seeing something as we see it, more as it is interpreted by the photographer? sometimes, it's the images that are processed a little differently or maybe in monochrome, that stand out for me. if anything like me, I suspect that every image created (I am a decent natural history macro photographer) is like a little baby to the photographer, in that they love it and are proud of it but want to improve it and develop it over time.

I just enjoy looking at the fabulous hubblesque images posted on here which often make my heart jump as the file opens. the only negative I sometimes feel is that because of the apparent attitude sometimes to 'pointless posts' by people like me that know nothing, there's not much point in posting.

[ollypenrice]

I don't think that a simple kind remark has anything at all to be ashamed of. It's great to be able to say that you like an image and it's nice for the imager to receive such comments. These remarks have their place and I'd be dismayed to see them go.

Olly

[swag72]

I think crit is an important way to improve your imaging, as already said, sometimes it is hard to see the problems for yourself. My only niggle at reading this is that as a total rank amateur at this imaging lark, I can see an image, see something wrong with it for example, yet not be able to pinpoint HOW you could change that. It may be something in the processing workflow that has caused a certain artifact etc.

Let me just explain a little further. As a member on a photography forum, critique is something that comes up often (or lack of it usually) - There is a feeling that people who are new to photography (replace for astro imaging if you like) are not qualified to give any crit as they are new to it and don't know about the technicalities. If people feel that a constructive comment should be coupled with a solution, then an eliteist attitude can kick in and prevent people from porsting comments. Then the die hards and those in the know are the only ones who post ........... they get cheesed off with always being the ones to say something ................ they ask why no one bothers but them ................ then no one bothers.

I hope that doesn't happen on here. In future I will post on my images that I want total gloves off brutal crit - It's the only way to learn.

[Whippy]

I feel that aside from technical issues like sharpness and stacking etc, the final look of an image is surely down to artistic interpretation as we are not seeing something as we see it, more as it is interpreted by the photographer?

It should be Shane, the data imagers gather erm, gathers far more than the human eye ever could so in one sense imagers are manipulating their data without a reference but they should be only bringing out what the camera captures so what you see is what the imager captured.

the only negative I sometimes feel is that because of the apparent attitude sometimes to 'pointless posts' by people like me that know nothing, there's not much point in posting.

I'd be surprised if any regular SGL members felt that way when posting images.

Back on topic, I think there's an element of how the help is posted. Post it nicely and I'm sure it will be seen in the spirit the OP intended, post it like it's been written like a telegram then it's probably going to be seen as criticism.

Tony..

[ollypenrice]

'...post it like it's been written like a telegram then it's probably going to be seen as criticism.'

Nicely put!

Olly

[reddoss]

I think one also has to be mindful of the level of experience, equipment, location and the amount of time the imager has when making a criticism.

[RobH]

I think one also has to be mindful of the level of experience, equipment, location and the amount of time the imager has when making a criticism.

Very true.

If I'm commenting on an image by someone new to imaging, I want the main thrust of my comments to be encouraging. Even if I can see a hundred things that can be improved, I'm not going to mention the bulk of them as you can't learn this whole malarkey in an instant. If there's something that's a good technique for the level of experience of the imager, I'll try and give some advice.

This is the way I've been helped, and without the advice and constructive criticism I've received, I'd be miles behind where I am now.

I find too, that, certainly where I'm concerned, I can spend hour upon hour processing, and sometimes don't see the wood for the trees.

I can put what I think is a finished image up, and then get a couple of constructive comments which make me look at the image and suddenly see something that's been staring me in the face but not registering. This really has helped me improve my images and I'm grateful for any critique of that kind.

What I have found in the past though (not on this forum), is that there are those around whose reason for criticism seems to be to deliberatley find fault.....when I've looked at the images these (nameless!) people have produced, almost invariably, they tend to look like something the cat dragged in, and that's if they've posted anything at all .

Once you have a good data stack, and have avoided the main pitfalls of processing (artifacts etc), then it's down to the individual imager as to how that data is interpreted, and everyone will have their own preferences, so when dealing with what is essentially artistic interpretation, one cannot say that something is either right or wrong, only that you as a person prefer something one way or another, and I think it's important to make this clear in any comments directed at this side of an image.

A great thing about this forum is that it's grown rapidly, and we now have over 15,000 members, of which over 3000 are active.

A down side of this is that it's simply not possible to give every image posted the time and critique it deserves. If I'm at home and not busy, I try to spend some time helping out, but when I'm working, I simply don't have the time or energy to devote to this, so apologies from me for not being more proactive .

Cheers

Rob

[Macavity]

If you speak French you'll see that the style is quite different from SGL but it is not at all unpleasant.

Heheh. My colloquial French is NOT as good as yours, Olly. But made me feel quite SAD really - Or, at least... un peu de nostalgie? At CERN, I so preferred to be "adopted" by FRENCH teams... Even "Ze Germans" [teasing] were way cool(er). It isn't, to me, completely, an inability to accept criticism. We Brits seem so collectively hamstrung with protocol, meetings, a residual class (academic? financial?) structure. Once the quintessential nation of WIT, we seem so humourless... So "literal" these days. We misunderstand irony. We see "disrespect" everywhere. Self-deprecating humour is interpreted as weakness, in need of immediate "correction" - The latter, even on SGL. Courtesy is requisite, but let's all strive to be a tad less "CORRECT" here? Heck, the Americans have (and promote!) the wise concept of "lightening up" a little...

[steppenwolf]

Heck, even the Americans have (and promote!) the concept of "lightening up" a little...

I don't know, lightening up can sometimes burn out detail in the core ..... oh, you didn't mean that kind of lightening up ....

[Macavity]

I don't know, lightening up can sometimes burn out detail in the core ..... oh, you didn't mean that kind of lightening up ....

Haha - Excellent.

[astro mick]

Interesting thread.

But i think Pete may have hit on something,regarding monitor calibration.

When i posted a few days ago an image of M27,i thought it looked

really good,but the feed back was negative,on all fronts,bar i think one.I was been told i was over processing,and clipping the data.On my photoshop when you convert 16bit to 8bit,i seem to lose the levels adjustment.It doe,snt look like the Histogram anymore,more like a comb.How do know when your clipping.

Another image of a Dark Nebulae,only generated one reply with the short comment"Well i can see a patch with less stars."

Well at least it was a reply.

Sometimes i think poor images do not generate the replys like a master piece such as Ollys,yet its proberbly those people that need the "Advice a little more"

I think i will have a look at my monitor settings before i re-post.

Regards.

Mick.

[ollypenrice]

I don't know, lightening up can sometimes burn out detail in the core ..... oh, you didn't mean that kind of lightening up ....

Tee hee, made me gurgle out loud!

I think Macavity is right. I am less and less confident, these days, in using irony. At one time it was my only channel of communication.

The French love English ironies, though, calling them 'l'humour Anglais...' Things like, 'I'd love to be more modest but I don't have anything to be modest about' really get French dinner tables spluttering wine and cheese all over the shop...

To hell with the cores, let's lighten up!

Olly

PS Mick, when I put pictures on SmugMug for showing on here it takes a bite out of the black point and makes the images look clipped. I don't know what's going on there. Enlightenment most welcome!

[roundycat]

It didn’t take long for this one to get off the ground; I’d say that is a good thing.

I read the thread and made comments as I went, here they are.

There is much evidence lately that people just want you to be nice to them. All the time. To me there is a difference between being polite and throwing compliments around like confetti. At risk of being crudely insensitive I’ll say this; If you ask for nice compliments on your work you may only get comments from those that don’t know what they are talking about. How useful is that.

Very often you see nice comments and fine praise from people that openly admit they are not much good themselves. You do not have to be an imaging expert to see halos around stars, you only have to use your eyes.

Steppenwolf commented that some seem to make a point of being critical, deliberately looking for faults. Can’t say I have seen much of this, perhaps I am one of them? Listing all the faults in some pictures would make for a long post, perhaps we should never mention more than the two worst examples. (I liked the bit about lightening up, got a real belly laugh from that one).

One thing that stands out to me is that if you say ‘that’s nice’, you can do so without an explanation as to why but if you say ‘that’s not nice’ you have to bend over backwards not to give offence. If you get a comment you don’t like there is no reason why you should not debate it with he who dared to criticise. This is something we don’t see too often but that kind of debate would benefit everyone reading it.

I would like to list some of the common errors; star halos, too sharp, too black, very dodgy colour. Star halos are there for all to see including the author of the work if only they would look. Same for sharpening artefacts and black backgrounds – you do not need to be an expert to see this, you just have to look. As for colour we are all on dodgy ground due to the different viewing conditions and the fact that some people grew up in the psychedelic era. If you mix S2HaO3 as RGB you do not automatically get a Hubble palette, you have to work for it. Look up some Hubble pictures and see how many of them are bright green.

Astro mick raised a fair point (to some degree) about his recent M27. It was overdone and most of the problems could be seen if you measured various features of the picture rather than just look at them. None of us can put the blame squarely on monitor calibration, it is just one issue that needs to be borne in mind. Everything in the picture that can be measured should be measured to avoid saturation, posterisation and clipping. Browser settings are also a major source of infidelity.

Swag72 raised a good point – ask for a ‘brutal crit’, you can then ignore the simply gratuitous

comments made by the ignorant, they will eventually go back to their GameBoys.

I hope I have not spoiled a good and worthwhile thread by rambling too much. I will leave you all with this thought.

Start a new thread, one which will hopefully be heavily monitored by the admin experts on image processing. Don’t let lots of people jump on the same bandwagon. Make the thread a sticky (maybe), keep to the point and let it do this;

List all the most common errors in processing. Invite everyone to write down their single most hated fault. Put those ‘voted’ most common at the top of the thread. Do not allow any comments to repeat, filter out the repeats but take account of their frequency.

I imagine the list would start off looking like this:-

Too black

Too sharp

Star halos everywhere etc, etc.

Technical points such as coma and star trailing should not be in the list as they are not generally down to processing. I would think the list, which need not go on for ever, will be a handy reference for beginners and intermediate alike. Use it as a check list, if any of the points raised are in your picture don’t post it - go back and do it again.

Dennis

[shaunster]

When i posted a few days ago an image of M27,i thought it looked

really good,but the feed back was negative,on all fronts,bar i think one.I was been told i was over processing,and clipping the data.O

Well astro mick your M27 generated a fair few replies, it seems you only wanted people to say 'nice image' but you got told problems with your image which frankly you can see yourself if you look. Yes the image was OK but people try and help you improve so you can get a great image next time...

Yes you overprocessed it and yes the data was clipped so no one gave you a harsh criticism IMO

Sorry if thats harsh..

[BlueAstra]

Interesting thread. I've been imaging only for a couple of years now, but because of the lack of an observatory, and work commitments, I can’t spend a huge amount of time (all night!) imaging. So my images tend to be grabbed in a single evening (after setup) with whatever time I can dedicate in that evening to the target. Coupled with that is my inexperience with processing. This means that my images never get to consistently high standard. However, part of the enjoyment of the hobby is making the equipment work, and obtaining images to print out and display for my own enjoyment.

From my point of view, to get the best out imaging you need to learn all the aspects of equipment setup and image processing. I therefore welcome any and all comments on my images, especially those that point out something that could be done better, or some technique that I could usefully use. I appreciate though that I am probably fundamentally limited by lack of sub quantity and exposure time. I also enjoy looking at other member’s images and trying to absorb the techniques used.

My suggestions to aid this would be to ask all who publish images to give an abbreviated list of equipment used, exposure sequences and perhaps processing applied. This would help people gauge what they need to do to improve, and perhaps the limitations of what they are currently using. Comments on images are useful and welcome, and if people publish an improved version of an image, please detail the steps taken to create it. I know I could never have achieved a fraction of what I have done without the contributions of other members.

[Si W]

I think the problem is with forum's everything is written rather than people speaking and interacting in person, written communications can be impersonal, for instance, i could be sat with a person and they could give some excellent advice/feedback what ever you want to call it, however that same person could put it in writing and it would get my back right up, but that same person didn't mean it, while we interacting with a person we can tell if there genuine or just being sarcastic, trying to belittle you, just by the look on there face. In the written word this can be a lot harder to get you true feelings across, sometime's people read to much between the lines, it's very hard to judge sometime people's true feeling.

[ollypenrice]

To take Dennis's point, it might indeed be useful to have some kind of 'critical sticky' on the forum. Show some images with common defects pointed out and, most importantly, advice on how to avoid them. I don't mind donating some duff images, I'm not short of them!

Si is also right. It isn't easy to convey tone in the written word, especially when replying quickly.

Olly

[James]

I try and remember to specifically ask for criticism when I post images (all too rarely ). My images have improved over time (I think!) and this is in some part due to the comments members have made, sometimes in the thread where I posted and sometimes via PM.

The last thing I want to do is post up images for people to just say how good they were to them (although like anyone it's nice to get the odd compliment). I always welcome criticism especially when backed up with good advice.

James

[Macavity]

Well astro mick your M27 generated a fair few replies, it seems you only wanted people to say 'nice image' but you got told problems with your image which frankly you can see yourself if you look.

Found the thread finally. Oddly, I got a totally different impression. The critical ideas seemed constructive (enviably extensive!) and... frankly, rather graciously received? Internet and WORKPLACE bullying are something of an "issue" with me. I would hate anyone else to suffer the (physical) health problems (also abject demoralisation, early retirement etc.) as a result of the latter. On the other hand, for limited time, I get to indulge my astronomy. Sure beats working!

On SGL, Mods do allow the possibility to "stand up for oneself"... As a personal aspiration,

I'm working on becomming: http://www.flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/bigcat.htm

[astro mick]

Shaunster.

No not at all,i did,nt think that was a harsh comment.The thread may have seemed like that,but i honestly thought the image was good.But here we go again,people say if you measure the image,you can see the faults.(I have,nt a clue what there talking about.)

Yes its nice if people like your image, but the Thread was taken over with people talking way above my head,so my last comment was as you have read it,meant as a light hearted comment.I have posted recently about maybe someone producing a basic step by step Tutorial,and i whole heartedly endorse a Dedicated Section to this.

Over processed can mean a lot of things,and without these dedicated step by steps,i think we will still wander around trying to do our best.

Mick.

[ollypenrice]

Mick, a quick way to measure the background sky is to go into Curves, put the cursor on a bit of dark sky and click. A point will appear on the graph with a brightness value. If it less than 15 most people will feel your sky's too dark.

Just an example...

Olly

[astro mick]

Olly.

That little piece of info was a gem,i had no idea,and i expect a lot of other people did,nt know that either.

Now i will remember that.

Thanks.

Mick.

[Keiran]

'What a rubbish way to open a thread, I think you should have...'

Only kidding... This is an interesting one, and i think you are right in what you say. Depending on how the publisher words their thread, personnal interpretation and common sense, you should be able to work out what they are wanting from it.

Normally, if i have anything to add i will sometimes PM the person... That way if im wrong or they were not looking for any criticism its not public.

Personnally I welcome everybody to rip my work to bits, I wont ever learn if im not told how too...