A culture of criticism?

[swag72]

Another thing that I think would help is when posting an image making some form of distinction between whether you want crit or just posting it for the pleasure of your self and others. Don't get me wrong on those last few words, I appreciate that some images on here are excellent and I really do have a lot of pleasure just looking at them and marvelling at them. I hope that these images will keep coming. They are inspirational.

When I post an image in the future, not only will I ask for brutality, but also give some basic outline of what I wanted to achieve with the image, whether I felt I got there and what could perhaps be done differently. I am a great believer that self crit and awareness is a great thing to have and by putting a few words (apart from the usual kit used, exposures etc) it shows that you have actually thought about what you have posted. For me, I would then feel that it was worth me making the effort to crit the image as the poster had clearly taken some time to think about it themselves.

[Grinde]

Just adding my 2 cents to this discussion

I've invested ridiculous amounts of time & money in this hobby since I started almost 2 years ago, but the best "investment" I've made so far is registering to SGL. Some of the photos posted here are the best I've ever seen. So, to be able to post images here along with very skilled imagers & getting tips & techniques on how improve, that's the single most effective improvement to my imaging I've had so far. Of course encouragement & positive comments lets me know I'm on the right track, but constructive critisism is the stuff that's helping me to improve!

[Shibby]

Yeah, unfortunately the word 'criticism' seems to have become synonymous with 'negative criticism', I'm not sure why!

There's nothing like 'criticism' to put people off posting on any forum!

I think the biggest off-put is to receive no comments at all, it's truly disheartening whether you believed your image was good or not.

I always welcome *any* criticism / discussion, but you've made me think Olly that I will in the future state this clearly whenever I post an image.

However, as a beginner I only very warily offer my own criticism - I just don't have the experience compared to other members, I wouldn't want to offer any false advice.

[Keiran]

Yeah, unfortunately the word 'criticism' seems to have become synonymous with 'negative criticism', I'm not sure why!

I think the biggest off-put is to receive no comments at all, it's truly disheartening whether you believed your image was good or not.

I totally agree... I understand that not everybody that views and image will comment, but i would always welcome some comment of any kind.

I think it is important that nobody takes offence to the comments... even if they may come across that way some times, people are only trying to help.

[pete_l]

I think it is important that nobody takes offence to the comments... even if they may come across that way some times, people are only trying to help.

Yes. I don't think we're a vindictive lot, but it would be very easy for someone with a fragile ego to go complaining to the moderators that they had been "grossly offended" by a critical response. Unless the moderator has been following that thread personally, it's unlikely they will see anything more than a "poor" forum user being bullied and could even end up banning the critic.

As I say, I doubt that anyone is nasty enough to do that - and I would hope / expect everyone to realise that comments are either emant to be contructive or humourous, but nowadays on most forums, it's always something in the back of my mind when I post.

[JoLo]

Great post, I have thought about these issues a lot since getting into AP a few months back. My initial posts on this forum have been met with "nice shots" to indifference. I make it a point to place in my post "all criticism welcome" or something similar, meaning I gain more information from constructive criticism from those who have been down the road before me, rather than "nice shot", which I take to mean appreciation of my work...I do like reading that very much, but it doesn't help me improve my technique. Like JohnnyD333 I am a yank, and worry about our "culture of compliments" on this side of the big pond....

A year or so ago I went to photography blogs to research a lens I was considering...I will never do that again. The responses were mean-spirted, condenscending and down right nasty. I think it is because these blogs and forums are predominately "professionals", who look with disdain on these pesky amateurs who dare to invade their space with sophmoric questions.

I have never run into that in our amateur astronomy community. Criticism I have seen (there should be more....) is always constructive and in the spriit of "this is what I have learned, perhaps it will help you". There is no better way to improve and make your way through this difficult "hobby" than learning from your peers.

I belong to several forums and I will say, without hesitation, that Stargzer's Lounge is the most informative, civil and constructive of any I belong to. My issue with some of the US forums (CN is particular) is the cliqueishness (???, sorry) that develops and the indifference sometimes exhibited toward newcomers. I rarely post to CN anymore, I prefer the company of my fellow imagers back in the UK.

Joe

[RikM]

Thinking about things today I have realised that I rarely offer critique of posted images because I don't yet have the self confidence that comes with experience.

It is only 18 months since I first strapped a camera to a scope and I still consider myself very much a learner. I can, and do, comment on equipment used, based on my own experiences, but never considered myself competent to offer much advice on other people's images.

[Digz]

A beautiful post......sorry, couldn't help it.

For me I think the key term is 'peer review' because criticism has adopted a negative connotation, which I think can a) put people off providing criticism as they may be seen as saying something wrong, can stop people asking for criticism in the first place for fear of having a strip torn off.

During my training as an Architect I have become use to pier review where my tutors, and even students, would offer advise on how they might do things or improve what has been done.

Furthermore, my interest in photography has continued to expose me to the world of pier review and criticism.

I strive to be critical when I comment, when I feel I am capable of doing such. That is to say there is some great work shown here I often feel woefully under experienced to help someone develop. I do, however, think back to when I started and the help that was offered here with a view to helping those just starting out.

I think a successful critique of a piece of work is something which picks up any perceived flaws and explains why the pier thinks these flaw are present and (most importantly) explains how to put these right in future. After all we are all learning and how better to learn than from those who were once in our situation.

I can say that I have, as of yet, not experienced any real negative criticism which has been harsh and not deserved (not to my own work as I don't post much, but to others). In response to a sticky on criticism I think it may be a good idea to have one outlining how constructive criticism can be achieved and the do's and dont't's maybe?

As an anecdotal aside there is something that is taught at my place of work (which goes out the associates and above) talking about a bull**** sandwich. It roughly follows along the lines of saying: 'I really like this design, however I think this doesn't work, having said that you have a strong philosophy which is manifest in what you have dawn.' basically something positive, something negative, something positive. Not sure I fully agree with this approach but thought it was quite funny when I first heard it.

[Orion_the_Hunter]

Hi,

It's this one; Webastro - Communauté sur l'astronomie

Go; Forum - Le Coin des Observateurs - La Photo - Photos et Traitements.

For an example of the critical style of the commentaries, here's a recent picture of mine and the discussion which followed.

[Gal] Feux d'artifice - allumées!! - Forums d'astronomie Webastro

If you speak French you'll see that the style is quite different from SGL but it is not at all unpleasant.

Olly

Thanks Olly. Yes I notice the style is different; critical but not unpleasantly so.

IMO it's difficult to know what to say about an image. For example looking at the image you posted on the French forum I was thinking 'I could stare at that all day but I think the colours are a bit strong'. However maybe it would be wrong for me to say that as I know nothing about imaging, I don't know what a 'perfect' image of that Galaxy should look like and imaging is an art; therefore you are the artist and the judge of how you think your image/end result should be.

Therefore SGL being a 'mixed ability' forum maybe explains a) the abundance of 'back slapping and people can be taken aback when they see an image being 'criticised; many are just not used to it.

I say a good mix of critique and praise can only help a budding imager. Encouragement and a pointer in the right direction.

I hope my ramble made sense!

Thanks again for the link.

[JoLo]

I think Orion the Hunter makes a good point....none of us know what a good image should look like and, like art in a museum, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I recently completed a wide field of M8 / M20 and, while processing, went on line to get an idea of what it should look like. Is M20 red and M8 blue? Are they a mix of both? After reviewing 10 or 20 images of the pair...each beautiful in it's own right, but each differently "interpreted"...I came to realize that there was no single, correct image. I finished my photo with what was most pleasing to me...am I wrong?

[Helen]

Good thread!

If I post an image I'd like to be encouraged by the responses - encouraged to carry on and get better, with some specific help on what I can do to get better results. Given the stage I'm at (towards bottom of learning curve!) I would probably be overwhelmed by a long list of things to do differently! but a few key pointers on where to make the biggest improvement would be particularly welcome. Perhaps its a case of helping people get to the next rung of the ladder, wherever on that ladder they happen to be.

We had planned for MartinB to do a session at SGL6 on how to analyse an image so that you know what needs doing. Unfortunately it was set for the Thursday and got cancelled because the tents weren't available. I think a primer with this sort of analysis would be great.

Helen

[old_eyes]

This is a very interesting thread, and in the variety of comments shows some of the problems of this sophisticated online world we live in.

A number of people have commented that the written word does not convey nuance and intent very well. There is some research dating back to the 1960s showing that in face to face meetings:

• 58% of meaning is carried in visual clues; facial expression, posture etc.
  
  
• 38% is carried by sound; tone, pace and intonation.
  
• Only 7% is carried by the words
  

It won't be the same in an online conversation, as we focus more on the words, but clearly the bandwidth isn't there, and without the friendly tone of voice or the smile and gesture, a comment can feel harsh.

Then there is the different stage of development of skill in the community. The really experienced are trying to hone their skills and are looking for criticism in the sense Olly uses it. Thorough analysis and unblinking commentary. That is how the best in any field of endeavour seek to improve. The beginner and learner want encouragement, to feel that there are getting somewhere. It is hard for anyone struggling with the rudiments to accept and benefit from the kind of criticism the expert is used to. Doesn't matter whether it is music, art, sport, writing or whatever. Encouragement to perservere comes first.

There are two practices that those I admire on SGL practice regularly, and I try to learn from. The first is when commenting on someone else's work, say what you like about the image first, then voice your concerns or point out areas that can be improved. And if you know exactly how you would treat the image; say so.

The second is a duty on us who post images for comment. Do likewise. Critique your own images. Say what you like about it and where you have concerns. That makes it easier for others to engage with you at the right level.

"Tread softly because you tread on my dreams" W B Yeats.

old_eyes

[Helen]

Yes. I don't think we're a vindictive lot, but it would be very easy for someone with a fragile ego to go complaining to the moderators that they had been "grossly offended" by a critical response. Unless the moderator has been following that thread personally, it's unlikely they will see anything more than a "poor" forum user being bullied and could even end up banning the critic.

As I say, I doubt that anyone is nasty enough to do that - and I would hope / expect everyone to realise that comments are either emant to be contructive or humourous, but nowadays on most forums, it's always something in the back of my mind when I post.

Can I reassure everyone that if we get a reported post as moderators we will always look at the whole thread to check the context. We'll also consider other posts in other threads to see if there's a pattern. We'll then take the appropriate action (which may be no action if that's most appropriate). If you see something that is 'beyond the line' of constructive criticism please do report to us.

Helen

[ollypenrice]

Excellent post, Helen. I agree that 'learning to look' is a key skill, just as 'learning to read' is what you do if you take an English degree (though you can obviously do it yourself as well.)

I also think that if you asked Robert Gendler if he felt he was near the bottom of a learning curve he woud probably say 'yes.' I think we all would because the beauty of what is out there is beyond us all.

Olly

Edit. Old Eyes, whom I know by another name, has made a superb contribution, I think, and it came in as I was typing. The Yeats quotation is bang on, as is the point about encouragement. When you're a teacher you need a certain degree of confidence to say to a student, 'Well, I don't think this worked but this bit was great.'

I think we should have that confidence and I think we should be polite... but I think that we are.

It has been interesting to read so many comments suggesting that the prevailing culture on SGL is attractive and, yes, I think it is.

[Macavity]

I think rather than indulge (in) false modesty, it's good to remember that each of us possess skills in other areas? I was once touched to receive a hand-written (ink!) letter from an aged professor, thanking me for some unofficial (trivial) help with his PC programming. Seems he had become afraid of asking "computer experts", after a series of bad experiences.

I was moved to check out his academic history though. I found out he had been one of those quiet genius academics, responsible for developing something that saved thousands(?) during WW II. I hadn't the heart to disavow him of the virtues of Windows 95...

[ollypenrice]

I think rather than indulge (in) false modesty, it's good to remember that each of us possess skills in other areas? I was once touched to receive a hand-written (ink!) letter from an aged professor, thanking me for some unofficial (trivial) help with his PC programming. Seems he had become afraid of asking "computer experts", after a series of bad experiences.

I was moved to check out his academic history though. I found out he had been one of those quiet genius academics, responsible for developing something that saved thousands(?) during WW II. I hadn't the heart to disavow him of the virtues of Windows 95...

Nice...

One of my eminent Profs at university was run over by a van on his way to work. He sprang to his feet (aged as he was) and asked the driver if he was all right...

Olly

[Si W]

I think there should also be some caution when making a comment on what image a person has produced, just as an example, we all know that a one shot colour camera has an inferior image due to the bayer matrix as opposed to an LRGB or Narrowband image, some people cant afford say a 300/4000 series ATK for example, LRGB/Narrowband filters and a filter wheel and all the other stuff, someone could of put there heart and sole into producing an image with what kit they can afford, and before someone makes a comment they need to research the individuals equipment and comment accordingly.

[JoLo]

The best teachers I have ever had, either professional or personal, know how to both encourage and offer criticism such that the two become one and the same.

[roundycat]

First off, Paxo, why pull the thread. That really is spoiling the ship for a half-pennyworth of tar.

Remember, spare the rod, spoil the child.

EDIT: I posted this a while ago, or so I thought. Now at least two of the posts above have disappeared. Was my post pulled or did I just think I posted it. Interfering mid-thread is to no ones advantage. Here it is again, just in case I did forget to press the right button.

Mick, you listed your basic process, here are some points where I think you might benefit.

Six darks are not enough. Take fifteen to twenty to see the difference. Any number of darks add their own noise, the idea is to reduce the added noise as much as possible. Thirty takes the added noise down to around 2%, usually well within the noise from readout and sky background.

The main use for Bias is for scalable darks but they can lead to artefacts buried in the data, not visible until you stretch it. The second use is to do a quick calibration on your flats. They must be dark or bias subtracted or they will be inaccurate. If you do not use flats you can expect various artefacts in your pictures, some easy to see such as dust and some not so easy such as fixed pattern noise. If you can get your mount to dither reliably you can do away with darks but you still need to subtract bias from each sub.

To cut a long story short I recently bought PS from an Amazon dealer for £130. This version is plenty good enough but I seem to recall PS6 would not do 16bit layers which makes it useless.

I suggest you use Levels only to bring out the basic detail. A gamma shift of 2 two or three times will do this. For Curves pick a dark area in the picture and Ctrl Click to place an adjustment on the curve. Then do it again at a brighter point and shift the second point up the graph using the arrow keys. Up to a point Levels and Curves do the same thing. But if you pull the algorithm too far they will differ quite a bit.

Using just a centre point adjustment in Curves will lighten the background too much and limit the contrast you can pull out of the mid-range. In my view you always need two points and sometimes three or more depending on what you are trying to do.

Regarding the number of exposures the answer is as many as you can get. The length of exposure is best determined by trial and error. You need as long as you can get without blooming or bloating of the bright stars. I can’t recall the stacking options available in AIP but you should use at least a Median combine and preferably a sigma reject routine. Combined with dithering this will knock out nearly all the thermal pixels as well as cleaning up the background noise. (sat and con-trails, cosmic ray hits etc). If you have good camera control software you can measure the sky noise, calculate the read noise and base your exposure on a new but not very different optimum.

After Uranium’s comment I feel I should say again, use Levels initially two to four times until you can just see the object and then stay with Curves. There is nothing to be gained by constantly switching between the two and Curves give you the control you need for delicate stretching, Levels does not.

Dennis

[Helen]

There's a bit of post confusion here guys! There is this post about criticism, and the other one (now moved to Imaging help section) which Mick started.

Dennis, the posts haven't been deleted, they are in the 'other thread' (including a duplicate of the one above) http://stargazerslounge.com/imaging-image-processing-help-techniques/149199-how-process.html#post1886663

Helen

[Paxo]

Your post is still in the other thread Dennis, no one has removed it. As for pulling the thread, it was a simple reminder for everyone to stay civil and that self moderation is by far the best way to keep the thread on track in the first place.

[crossed posts with Helen]

[roundycat]

Paxo, yes, sorry about being thick. I found the 'missing' post only after having posted the same thing again.

Dennis

[Paxo]

Easily done Dennis with so many (similar) interesting threads

Steve

[antimorris]

I think some offense to 'constructive criticism' might stem from merely the medium being used. Sometimes it is hard to read the tone of a post and what is meant as curiosity or a helpful comment might be read as "ripping" on someone's image. I have noticed similar threads to this one on various forums (not just astrophotography) just based on how the post was read vs how it was intended.

I personally have learned a TON from constructive criticism of my images. My first ones were abysmal but I posted them anyways to get ideas on how to improve, which I believe I have done quite a bit. Sometimes I am happy with an image and post it to see if others see the same as I do (as everyone's monitors are calibrated differently images can vary WIDELY) and their helpful comments have made me rethink a processing step and in turn I learn new ones. Else, why bother being a member of forums? I find the whole purpose is to collaborate with ideas and learn from like-minded individuals who don't necessarily live within hollering distance to bounce an idea off of.

When I, on occasion, offer advice or ask a question I do not do it with ill intent but sometimes (as I did recently on a friend's photo posted elsewhere) I am genuinely curious why something turned out a specific way so I know what processing step produced those results (in that particular case boxy stars which weren't normally in his images so it made me curious what he had added to his processing) or I throw a comment to someone hoping to help as so many helped me when I started this hobby.

I guess my rambling aside, my views are that I welcome constructive criticism (basically anything that isn't just downright mean) for anything I post - its how I learn and better my images!

[mag10]

I've read all the post here, and I'm moved to say it again:

Brits are a really civil people.

I have a unilingual French friend from work (now retired) who visited both Paris and London.

She said that France, to her, even if she could understand the language, seemed

"chaotic". But she said London "felt like home".

We over here in the the Dominions, have inherited the best of what the UK has to offer: Civility and civic awareness.

The posts on SGL just confirm this to me.

I'm not saying other cultures are'nt "civilized".

Far from it.

But there is a quality to civic discourse inherited from British culture that, even though I'm "technically" a French Canadian, I espouse and am proud to claim as my own.

I know. It's a bit schizophrenic.

But hey. Vive la différence!