Raspberry Pi Guiding Newbie

[pete_81]

Hi all, just getting straight to the point.
Just got a Rasp Pi 400 (equivalent to Pi4-4GB), and looking to get into guiding through this as it's obviously a popular (and successful) technique.
Plan is to have the RPi as mini computer at home, running it with RaspPiOS (supplied on µSD with the full kit), then use it with a SECOND micro SD card for astro - I figure having another SD to run Astroberry (as on SGL) may ignore any issues with the family using the pi for other stuff in the house, giving a stand-alone 'computer' as the OS and files would be available on different SD's.

From this point, I'd setup as follows:
Connect the RPi directly via USB to the mount (it's the newer SW-AZ-EQ6Pro with the USB-B port on the mount)
Guidescope (240mm f/4) with T7C (equivalent to ZWO Mini) again USB-B direct to RPi
Nikon DSLR (either on telescope or using camera lenses) connected to RPi via Nikon USB (using the 3 USB points on the RPi-400) to control capture and later using this for plate-solving (but that's not for just right now!)

I don't spy any flaws in the plan, it's just going to be a matter of testing and setting things up hoping to follow the guide for Astroberry as linked to SGL below...
Or is there an alternative OS? From brief reading, Astroberry includes KStars & PHD2 which is what I've got for use on the macbook (although not used in earnest as it doesn't appear to like the cold too much!)
What about guiding software - I know KStars comes with it's own, and can run PHD2 from within, with PHD2 being the industry standard (and simplest?) to use?

Control will then be sitting in the warm via OS-X, which seems to be again a common technique as I've had posts on my other questions about this!
Thoughts???

Edited January 13, 2021 by pete_81

[StevieDvd]

You don't mention power as you'll need a few different voltages for the Pi (5v) Mount (12v) and DSLR (7-8v as a guess) and the routing for various cables from mount & cameras to the Pi.

 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

It may be me but not totally sure what you intend to do here.
Are you saying you want to mount this new RPi4-4Gb on the mount running Astroberry (or similar) and then use another RPi inside the house somehow ?

The usual way, as far as I am aware (but not that up on all this so could be wrong) is to have a RPi (either 3 or 4 ideally with at least 4Gb memory) on the mount running Astoberry (or Stellarmate etc) that has KStars included and then that RPi controls all the equipment at the mount (Mount, cameras, Filter Wheel, Focusser, Rotator etc via EKOS / INDI).
Also you then setup the imaging sequence within EKOS and then that one RPi controls all the imaging and stores the images wherever you want (on the micro SD card or another USB hard drive).

To control that RPi you could have a USB mouse, USB keyboard and HDMI screen plugged in to the RPi, however that sort of goes against the whole idea of having a cheap lightweight mini computer on the mount itself so it is more usual to remotely control the RPi via a laptop or desktop, using Remote desktop, Teamviewer, VNC Viewer of one of many other such programs from inside somewhere.
In theory this can totally wireless but without the addition of a USB WiFi adapter the WiFi is quite poor an a RPi 3 or 4 (I think the RPi 3 had an internal WiFi adapter  not sure) so a more robust method is to use a hard wired ethernet connection. 
Guiding can be done without any effort at all using the internal guider within EKOS, or you can use PHD2 which is also pre-loaded with Astroberry or Stellarmate. 

Now it is also possible to do something very similar and just run the mount as a Server and run KStars and PHD on your laptop or desktop inside the house, this allows the mount RPi to have less of a load on the processor and KStars can run faster and have a better display with faster update etc on your laptop / desktop.  I think that about right but never used mine in this way so may not bee 100% correct. 
I run mine with everything on the mount RPi and use my desktop to just connect to it via Teamviewer, Remote Desktop or VNC viewer. My theory behind this is that the weakest link is often the connection between laptop / desktop and RPi at the mount (especially if wireless) and so with everything running on the RPi at the mount if this is lost that is all that is lost and if a sequence is underway imaging your chosen target it continues regardless, you do not need the link. You can reconnect and nothing is lost. If the sequencing software was running on your main computer then the sequence would have stopped and would not restart automatically.

Now I guess in theory you could use a 2nd RPi as your main computer but not sure what that would gain so can't really comment.

I think what I have said is correct but I am not over confident on this and do struggle a bit setting it all up (great when it is and its all working) but many on here are very confident, and very helpful. The creator of Astroberry is a member of SGL so cant go wrong using this.

Steve

[alacant]

34 minutes ago, pete_81 said:

T7C

Hi

Not sure if that pi has usb2 ports. If not, you'll need to upgrade the t7's firmware. Copy here. Maybe worth doing anyway?

34 minutes ago, pete_81 said:

RPi directly via USB to the mount

You'll need this cable.

How will you connect? 'Phones I find fiddly. A laptop or a tablet makes life easier. Otherwise, looks good to go:)

Cheers

Edited January 8, 2021 by alacant

[Avocette]

The RPi 400 is a keyboard ‘hiding’ the RPi4 4GB, so you’ll need to think about mounting it and preventing ingress of damp.....

.....and for the purpose you propose, an RPi4 2GB in a flirc case, would do the astroberry job nicely!

Edited January 8, 2021 by Avocette

[pete_81]

Thanks all.

@StevieDvd, mains supplies the power pack (nevada) for the mount, and will run the USB-C cable for the RPi from the same. Camera will just be running on batteries and charged once dead (I've several original Nikon batteries for this)

@teoria_del_big_bang, a long response, thanks Steve! I'm looking to run a single RPi (the 400 model that I've just purchased), on the mount - as @Avocette states, this is the RPi 4 within the keyboard itself.
I then hope to run Astroberry from this (just got a second Micro SD card so the RPi can be used by family, and when I'm imaging, I'll take custody and boot it up with the second memory card. Need to read the linked topic, but I believe I can connect to the Pi directly through a browser by using the local network on it. This avoids all the extra monitor, etc, but need to confirm this once I get things installed and setup. As you correctly mention, my understanding is this RPi will control the mount, guiding and camera. Ethernet is plan here once initial teething errors are ironed out, connecting RPi to local router and then running Macbook Pro to control the setup. I've just got the one RPi (going on mount) and MBP to control via teamviewer (or alternative). Like I've said above, I'm completely new to this, so a steep learning curve, but hoping to get the basics understood... As you say, we're both not that confident, so  it may take a while to set things up, but once running, all should become easier!

@alacant, USB is just USB-B mounting directly to mount (it's the newer AZEQ6 with USB-B directly UNDER the controller port, so don't need the RJ-45 type connector; RPi-400 has 3 spare USBs. Cables as stated above are MOUNT(USB-B), T7C/ZWO (also USB-B) and Nikon (using their supplied cable). Connecting all through Macbook whilst enjoying the warm indoors!

Thanks again, sounds like it'll work. I'll update and share possible setup photos at some point

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by pete_81

[teoria_del_big_bang]

6 minutes ago, pete_81 said:

I believe I can connect to the Pi directly through a browser by using the local network on it.

Yes you can, but like I say in my experience the Wifi does not work well at any sort of distance with the internal WiFi adapter on the RPi and I have found a 2nd usb WiFi adapter or using Ethernet works a lot more reliably.

Steve

[pete_81]

@teoria_del_big_bang, hoping to just run an ethernet cable to the RPi from router, then all should connect over the local network

Thanks again Steve. Think this clears everything up!

[wimvb]

You got some great advice re the RPi400 already. I would like to chime in on getting a second Raspberry Pi 4 (without the keyboard) or even just a Raspberry Pi 3B+ dedicated for your astro gear. Run Astroberry/Kstars on that. With the latest versions of Kstars, you don't even need PHD anymore; I get the same or better guiding results with the native guiding tool as a friend of mine with PHD2. His scope is just 2 m from mine in the same obsy. PHD has polar alignment tools, but the PA routine in Kstars works just as good, imo.

I would connect the Raspberry Pi with an ethernet cable to the home network, as this is more reliable than wifi. You then run Windows Remote Desktop (or VNC, whichever you prefer) on your home computer (laptop, Mac). Use kstars on the RPi, and not on the home computer that connects to this, because if you lose the network connection, the RPi can continue if you run everything locally. If you run Kstars on the home computer, the system will crash if you lose connection. After a night's imaging, just transfer the image files to your home computer for processing.

[pete_81]

Thanks @wimvb Had thought that might be an option later - the reason for the RPi400 is we need new computer at home, just for browsing web, email, and some word processing, and printing documents. The RPi400 is much cheaper than anything else around, and if it fails to deliver on the other requirements, it can be dedicated to Astro but yes, point about getting dedicated astro setup is noted and had been consideration, but to 'try' this setup will at least get me familiar with things on KStars + RPi.

Again great advice and thanks to all for their responses on my checking of this type of setup and whether it would suit my requirements.

[pete_81]

For those interested and my own notes, I've just installed AnyDesk on the RPi and it runs really well with the MBP on the local network.
AnyDesk is IMO better than Team Viewer and it just works so this will be how I plan to go ahead with the setup above... Next step is Astroberry!

[rickwayne]

I have been running Pis at the mount for several years now and you're getting excellent advice.

I have run a Pi 3 with Stellarmate OS pre-1.5 (i.e., Ubuntu rather than Raspbian) and succeeded with that, although I had a lot of problems with it slowing almost to a halt, and plate solving on the main camera was very unreliable (the 1280x960 guide cam worked perfectly).

So I upgraded to a Pi 4 with 4 GB, and have nothing but good things to say about it. It has both USB 3 and 2 ports. The WiFi is quite reliable in the field as a hotspot, doesn't do all that well outside the house where the signal isn't very strong. There are known issues with some versions of Raspbian and the 3.0 ports affecting the WiFi. I bought a 100' Ethernet cable  for use outside the house which works flawlessly.

I like the flexibility that INDI allows, and have occasionally used the Pi as a dumb device server, running KStars and Ekos on my laptop. But I agree that while that never overtaxes even a Pi 3, it's more fragile. I too customarily run the whole stack on the Pi 4 and VNC in with a laptop, tablet, or even a phone. StellarMate also has a dedicated app that gives a much more streamlined user experience, so if you spend $50 for StellarMate OS you have a turnkey solution with a mobile interface too.

If it's already built into a keyboard, you could also have a scope-side setup by adding a little HDMI screen, or (if the keyboard doesn't have a touchpad) a touchscreen.

Finally -- and this is a really clear case of "I do this so you should too" -- you can run a Pi off 12V pretty easily with a plug-in board. Not really an option for one built into a keyboard, I guess, but I got a Waveshare stepper-motor controller board with a barrel connector just like other astro equipment. Runs the Pi and also has motor control outputs from which I constructed an autofocuser.

[pete_81]

Thanks Rick, just about to update further here to say I'd purchased a 128GB micro SD and installed ('flashed') Astroberry and installed AnyDesk - I've just started playing with KStars on the MBP via AnyDesk, which is presently working flawlessly, so hoping to start connecting mount and guide cam, then DSLR and just confirming connections. Then all is set and ready to go!

Ha, sounds easy...

Watch this space!

[fozzybear]

5 minutes ago, pete_81 said:

Thanks Rick, just about to update further here to say I'd purchased a 128GB micro SD and installed ('flashed') Astroberry and installed AnyDesk - I've just started playing with KStars on the MBP via AnyDesk, which is presently working flawlessly, so hoping to start connecting mount and guide cam, then DSLR and just confirming connections. Then all is set and ready to go!

Ha, sounds easy...

Watch this space!

any reason why you are using Anydesk as opposed to VNC which is installed on astroberry and free for rpi  https://www.realvnc.com/en/raspberrypi/

[Paul M]

I've run RealVNC Server on Ubuntu without problems and currently on Windows without issue at no cost. I control my mount mini W10 PC using an old android tablet via RealVNC.

I find it so good that I'd happily pay a (small!) personal use registration/subscription fee. It does require visibility of the internet though. So in the field, away from home WiFi I use the hotspot on my phone and connect mount PC and tablet to that (RealVNC can see my 4G internet on the phone). 

[fozzybear]

I have my Rpi4 in a Flirc case and via wifi to my router albeit as the crow flies about 10 metres away outdoors

[pete_81]

Only reason for not using vnc at present is I use Anydesk for work and found it much better than TeamViewer, no other reason, just know it works!

[fozzybear]

13 minutes ago, pete_81 said:

Only reason for not using vnc at present is I use Anydesk for work and found it much better than TeamViewer, no other reason, just know it works!

ok

[rnobleeddy]

On 08/01/2021 at 14:16, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Yes you can, but like I say in my experience the Wifi does not work well at any sort of distance with the internal WiFi adapter on the RPi and I have found a 2nd usb WiFi adapter or using Ethernet works a lot more reliably.

Steve

I've done some playing around with this and for me, the Pi's wifi strength is great until I stick it behind a large metal telescope! If you have a way of maintaining a clear line of sight between the Pi and the WiFi signal in the house, it tends to do well. Once it's behind my telescope it's often unusable.

However, I did find that a decent quality separate USB WiFi receiver helped signal strength, as did adding a WiFi repeater by the back door.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

1 hour ago, rnobleeddy said:

I've done some playing around with this and for me, the Pi's wifi strength is great until I stick it behind a large metal telescope! If you have a way of maintaining a clear line of sight between the Pi and the WiFi signal in the house, it tends to do well. Once it's behind my telescope it's often unusable.

However, I did find that a decent quality separate USB WiFi receiver helped signal strength, as did adding a WiFi repeater by the back door.

I agree. I think my point was that in most circumstances we use the RPi in AP the Pi internal WiFi does not work reliably (Well in my experience).

• Most setus will have the RPi in some sort of case, and often that is metal used as a passive heatsink, that is the first obstacle (so the alternative is a plastic case with fan yes that is better for the WiFi)
• When mounted on the scope or mount often there are other metal obstacles in between the RPi and our home network router, when we start a session this may not be too bad but as the scope rotates this can get worse and cause signal loss.
• Often there are one or more walls the signal has to negotiate.

Also, certainly in my experience with a couple of RPi's generally the transmission speed was poor anyway even with a clear line of sight and close proximity of RPi to router.

But for sure the WiFi as it is can be used and if everything is running on the Pi and you just need to connect from a laptop to set things going and if the signal drops now and again then perhaps that's okay.
But even with this I personally just found it annoying, at best, and so for little extra effort I think it is a good idea to somehow improve this connection which as you state can be done in several ways.

1. Easiest, probably fastest and probably cheapest is to use a hard wired Ethernet connection. If you intend to download pictures direct to your laptop or desktop, or run KStars on them then this is my preference.
2. Use a second WiFi adapter on the RPi. Up until now I have always used the Ethernet cable but this was recommended by @Stuart1971 and just tried this and so far I have a great speed over 100 meters and through 2 walls with no drops in signal that I have seen so far so very happy with this method.
3. As you say many people do use a repeater nearer to the scope to boost the signal between a router indoors and the RPi and that works well to.

Steve

Edited January 10, 2021 by teoria_del_big_bang

[gilesco]

There have been a lot of anecdotal forums posts about the Wifi strength on the Raspberry Pi. Personally I have not had any issues, but I only use the Wifi if I am running Kstars on the Pi itself, and locally storing exposures.

If I choose to run Kstars on my desktop indoors then I always use a ethernet cable.

It is impossible to provide a root cause analysis for all the reports that we see, there are many possible contributors to the issue:

• Case, everyone chooses their own case, which will cause a differing amount of interference.
• Distance to AP, or AP mesh, together with other possible obstructions, including the telescope / mount itself.
• Whether using a 2.4Ghz band or 5Ghz band for wifi. 5Ghz is more stable on the Pi and faster at shorter ranges, 2.4Ghz is less stable and prone to other issues, it is also generally slower than 5Ghz.
• Other Wifi networks in the vicinity. This is more of an issue with 2.4Ghz, where the channels overlap and in truth only 3 networks can co-exist in the same physical space without conflicting with each other, causing bandwidth loss due to CSMA-CA, but it can also happen with 5Ghz networks.
• Other Radio interference, e.g. Microwave Ovens, Wireless Doorbells, Wireless DECT telephones, GPS receivers and general electronic interference from many other devices.
• Raspberry Pi power supply, the Pi4 needs a good PSU, generally capable of 5.1V 3A sustained supply, and this often needs to still be the case even when operating in sub-zero temperatures. I am not sure if even the official PI4 power supply is rated to operate at low temperatures.

If you absolutely need uninterrupted fast connectivity to your Pi then use an Ethernet cable. If you just need to monitor a Pi running Kstars pretty much autonomously then it is OK to use the Wifi to monitor the sesssion progress via Wifi.

[pete_81]

Lots of interesting comments here about wifi ability, still have to get the system out into the garden outside, but for the first part, the setup will just be literally 6ft from the house - damp garden following the snow etc, so will work on the patio initially so I don't visualise the <5m being a problem for the wifi strength! @gilesco sums this up perfectly - use wifi if possible when running kstars on the RPi and one would be daft to use it without ethernet if not running kstars hard-wired to the mount in some capactity!

Next query though... My guide camera is struggling to work with RPi - didn't have any success in ekos/indi, so tried with phd2 and it would apparently connect ok (which it also did in ekos) but I got the timeout message after the 15 secs, it had failed to receive any images.
I'd read about USB2 being required as connecting the USB-B to USB-3 on the RPi creates all sorts of mis-matching in data stream rate, but no change.
Camera works with PHD2 on the macbook, so whilst debugging on RPi, I may resort to MBP & KStars, just using a 3m USB extension to use MBP indoors, or might borrow the Mac Pro from work while lockdown continues 😄
Anyone advise on 'inexpensive' guide camera that works with Astroberry, or how to deal with the ZWO-ASI-120 equivalent T7C on RPi?

Thanks again to everyone who has chipped in here, I've learnt plenty over the w/e and had scope + DSLR successfully connected, just need guiding to work a bit more successfully to avoid the startrails!

Edited January 13, 2021 by pete_81

[alacant]

13 minutes ago, pete_81 said:

USB2 being required

Did you see this post?

Cheers

[pete_81]

@alacant, misunderstood your initial post - the RPi has both USB2 & USB3, so didn't think it was reference to firmware.
Updated camera on the RPi, and now connects and gets image to EKOS. Now just for a clear night and will get everything connected up and running!

Thanks again!
 

[SiD the Turtle]

Just wanted to add my 2p- my setup is an RPI4 with Astroberry.

• I use PHD2 more than the internal guider just because it's more popular and easier to get support online for.
• If you haven't already, look into plate solving. It used to be very involved to set up but with the latest release it's all out of the box and indeed faster in my limited experience. Once set up it'll vastly reduce your setup time.
• On wifi my crappy router will barely go through a sheet of paper, let alone several walls, but I was lucky enough to have a shed with a power point in it. So I bought a cheapo TP-Link PoE wifi extender and it does the job. Now I can set up and control everything from the kitchen, rather than sitting on a laptop in the cold.
• I also set up a network share to save the images rather than going to SD card- else I'd fill up the card super quick and add needless writes to the SD card. Again works fairly well with little lag.
• Honestly I have the Pi400 too and I wouldn't use it outside, even in the dry. I'd switch it for a Pi4 and an appropriate case.
• With everything connected the power draw isn't nuts. I have the whole setup running of a Celestron Powertank Lithium. Though I did invest in a Pegasus Power Box as it can deliver more over USB than the RPI can, plus it has build in dew control, power management etc.
• I also managed to hack in control of the QHY PoleMaster so everything is run through the Pi- the laptop is only needed for VNC.