Ogem mount - still vapour-ware or have they started shipping

[Northernlight]

ok think we are really getting off topic now.

[RayD]

7 minutes ago, Northernlight said:

ok think we are really getting off topic now.

Just a tad 😲

[Skipper Billy]

Tempting???

https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview.php?view=160936

[Northernlight]

Indeed it is tempting - Buy always worried about large second hand purchases unless i know the person. Besides - This guy literally couldn't be any further away form me if he tried.

Also for that money i would be tempted with a new E.Fric mount for Literally 220 euros more.  £3000 -> 3380 euro and E.Fric mount is 3600 Euro  with 5yr warranty.

 

I'm just wondering how long it will be before the Chinese start jumping on the Friction drive bad wagon 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Northernlight

[Northernlight]

Billy out of interest  - have you tried any unguided imaging with your Mesu - And if so, how long can you go before loosing round stars ?

[RayD]

With friction drive it is very easy to get it very wrong due to the very specific nature of the materials that have to be used on the friction surfaces, and the very tight tolerances involved.  I suspect that unless you are using Chinese manufacturers to produce equipment to your own specifications, then their market is generally mass production stuff, which will be very difficult to do with friction drives and get it spot on, whilst keeping costs low.

The likes of 10Micron successfully manage to produce extremely high quality gear final drive mounts, but not for £4k.  Naturally there is a balance to be had, and at the very high end is direct drive using renishaw encoders (ASA), with the lower end being mass produced full gear driven using production machining, such as a Celestron AVX, which performs perfectly adequately for its intended use.

I think the friction drive mounts are an excellent middle ground offering performance knocking on the door of that from a 10Micron etc, but at a lower price.  Whether that performance is going to be long-lasting is down to the quality of the build and materials, and Mesu has proven this to be very good.  Obviously 10Micron uses a sky model rater than guiding, so the performance is probably more guaranteed as it removes the additional complications which can come with guiding.

Ultimately I think the reason this JTW mount looks so similar to a Mesu is because the Mesu is such a good design.  I had a really interesting conversation with Lucas when I was with him in his workshop about how he came about the design of the mount.  I suspect he will be flattered that the design is being copied, rather than upset by it, as it proves he got it right.

 

[Northernlight]

RayD, if the JTW mount ever releases and turns out to be a good mount then I wonder if his opinion may change if it started impacting on his business.  But i have to agree, Lucas Mesu does make some fine equipment.

[Skipper Billy]

3 hours ago, Northernlight said:

Billy out of interest  - have you tried any unguided imaging with your Mesu - And if so, how long can you go before loosing round stars ?

Never tried it - I stay on the side of a large sea loch and we usually have either a sea breeze or a land breeze so even if the mount were capable of long subs without tracking I would still guide due to the persistent breeze.

This graph is from last week on a rare still(ish) night - you can see that in several minutes not a single corrective pulse was issued.

[david_taurus83]

21 hours ago, Skipper Billy said:

Never tried it - I stay on the side of a large sea loch and we usually have either a sea breeze or a land breeze so even if the mount were capable of long subs without tracking I would still guide due to the persistent breeze.

This graph is from last week on a rare still(ish) night - you can see that in several minutes not a single corrective pulse was issued.

That truly is boring!

[Physopto]

On 10/04/2020 at 14:01, Physopto said:

I have just come across this thread about JTW mounts.

Unfortunately I had a very bad experience with JTW.

I asked if they could manufacture some parts for me that I has designed for adapting my new (second hand) Tak 85. They agreed and I submitted the plans for them to sort out for CNC machining. In due course they submitted their computer generated drawings for the fabrication of the parts. Everything looked great. Then I was given their price for the job. Upon looking at the costs, I realized that I did not look right. It looked far too cheap for the amount of work involved. I discussed this via email with the owner and he realized that he had mistaken the number of parts and submitted a revised cost. This looked fair and we agreed to proceed.

 That was the real start of problems. Over some months I got various excuses for things not proceeding to schedule. Falling down stairs,  mix ups with machining and many more!

In the end several months and many emails about my order I was told they were ready to send out to me. (I had paid the whole  cost up front via Paypal).

Anyway, after it must have been 8/9 months the parts arrived. The CNC machining and anodizing was extremely well done.  As an ex marine engineer for over 24 years I know what I am looking at.

BUT one part had been machined incorrectly! The attachment holes were on the wrong side (back to front).

It was the adapter that bolted on to my QSI CCD camera. Many emails later I just had to give up. In the end he just would not respond at all.

I  had to machine the screw holes from the other side to adapt the part to fit correctly myself. Obviously that side is now not anodized but there was enough metal to do it.

 

All I can say is beware of JTW Astronomy.

It is a shame as he can do good work but just does not look into things properly and the back up is abysmal.

I have not posted comments on JTW Astronomy before as I was far too upset and fed up by the end of dealings, but there are numerous complaints on other Astronomy forums if you care to look.

If anyone is interested I can email the drawings to them on the parts I wanted for the project. As I said, it was to fit a QSI CCD to a Baby Q / Takahashi 85mm. But it includes the ability to fit or not using a spacer a SXV-AO-LF 'Adaptive Optics made by SDtarlight Xpress. I had to calculate the exact back focus as all spacing is taken up for this setup.

I can't remember the exact number of parts but 8/9.

I think I paid around 700 Euro.

If he had finished the job correctly without all the time wasting and failure in the end to sort the problem out ,I would have been nothing but complimentary.

Derek

Since posting this, bar one short post, I have kept quiet and watched a fair few people commenting  on JTW Engineering.

 

I mostly prefer not to comment on things I know little or nothing about.

I do hope that the mounts promised and I believe paid for do turn up and work really well.

 

The reason for this post is that Mark of JTW Engineering contacted me shortly after the above post. I was surprised but grateful for his email. In that email he said hat he was sorry that things had not gone according to expectations and wanted to make things right between us.

As I said  I was surprised, but thought why not give him another chance. It has taken a little while as I had to find the original drawings, but a few emails later Mark said he was getting the faulty part remade. There have been a few delays, but I would guess he is busy with other promised items. A few days ago the part arrived with me. I could not check it out properly due to weather but today I did.

Mark had said that if the threads were not quite right it may be because he had hand ground the original tooling. But he would remake any faulty parts as soon as he knew about the results. Now he had factory supplied tools so any threads should be perfect. To cut a long story short, the threads, were perfect and screwed on to the other part previously supplied  without any problems. I now have a working setup without the part I had to adapt, along  with all the other correctly machined  parts as originally ordered.

There were 8 parts in all and some of fairly complex shapes. They were designed to fit on my Takahashi 85mm between the Feather Touch Focusser and the powered  Pyxis 3" rotator. After the rotator they were designed to allow fitting of an Starlight Xpress AO unit, OR a spacer could be  fitted in its place and then on to the  QSI 683 wsg CCD. I designed the parts so that the AO and/or CCD could be rotated to any position regardless of any item in between.

I am attaching some diagrams and photos to illustrate my ideas. In practice every thing has worked as designed so far.

I originally looked at Precise Parts in the USA. I sent an email with some specifications to them but their answer was to tell me I had not given them some data. I pointed out that it was in the original email and to actually try reading it properly. After that they refused to answer any emails I sent to them. EXIT Precise Parts !!! I estimated their costs to me to would have been in the region of $1500 or more.

Mark has done the same and with extremely precise dimensions (checked by me) and  his prices were much lower!

In the end, OK there was some bad and long delays for whatever cause? But I now  have all the parts well machined and in use exactly as requested, doing their job perfectly.

I hope this gives hope to those awaiting his new mounts.

Derek

 

 

( Parts 1,2,3,&4) Male Optec threeand a half inch to 72x1mm swivel adaptor (11).pdf (Part 5 ) A.O. Unit to 2.156 inch x 24 tpi.pdf (Part 6) Tackahashi 72x1mm to 2.156 x 24 tpi CCD adapter (final).pdf (Part 7 ) QSI ccd camera adapter for 2.156 inch x 24 tpi.pdf (Part 8)QSI end cap drawing for STL 2.156 inch x 24 tpi.pdf

Edited May 27, 2020 by Physopto

[Northernlight]

Derek,

I think you have hot the nail on the head so to speak. I think Mark @ JTW is capable of some very good work,  he just appears to be terrible at planning & communication. He could have saved himself a lot of grief and hassle if he got someone else to help out with that side of things so that he could focus purely on the engineering side of things.

I think he promised that the mounts would be with people at the start of June, so hopefully people will start to get them soon and will be happy with them after the long long wait.

 

[newbie alert]

1 minute ago, Northernlight said:

Derek,

I think you have hot the nail on the head so to speak. I think Mark @ JTW is capable of some very good work,  he just appears to be terrible at planning & communication. He could have saved himself a lot of grief and hassle if he got someone else to help out with that side of things so that he could focus purely on the engineering side of things.

I think he promised that the mounts would be with people at the start of June, so hopefully people will start to get them soon and will be happy with them after the long long wait.

 

What year thou?

He's had everyone's money  for over a year now and still no mount

[Northernlight]

In the past i've been one of his most vocal critics for this very reason, and to be fair to Mark i've been unfairly harsh with some of my comments.  I think Mark is just extremely disorganised and has just made some bad decisions along the way, such as the original choice of controller before finally adopting Sitech Controllers. Why he didn't just adopt the tried and tested SiTech controllers from the start is beyond me.

I think he has lost of a lot of trust and has an awful lot of work to do to restore it, but hopefully he will get past it and we will see a new mount on the market to bring more competition to the established players which ultimately helps us all in the long run.

 

 

 

 

[wornish]

1 hour ago, Northernlight said:

In the past i've been one of his most vocal critics for this very reason, and to be fair to Mark i've been unfairly harsh with some of my comments.  I think Mark is just extremely disorganised and has just made some bad decisions along the way, such as the original choice of controller before finally adopting Sitech Controllers. Why he didn't just adopt the tried and tested SiTech controllers from the start is beyond me.

I think he has lost of a lot of trust and has an awful lot of work to do to restore it, but hopefully he will get past it and we will see a new mount on the market to bring more competition to the established players which ultimately helps us all in the long run.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Northernlight said:

 

 

I did consider this mount as the specs were intriguing but the saga just goes on and on and on!

The never ending series of excuses (which is what they are) show that this is not a viable business going forward. 

In the end the developer maybe a good engineer but he is certainly not a competitor in todays market for mounts.

Sorry to be harsh but "stop flogging a dead donkey" as the saying goes. 

Perhaps it's time to face reality?

[Physopto]

I would like to point out that there a few well respected suppliers of mounts who actively take up to several years to fulfil orders!! Admittedly they have a good track record,  BUT!

 

I know having been an engineer for many years it can be difficult to get every size correct without having to rethink items and how they will act or function together.  The 8 parts I had made were pondered over for some time and re-jigged in my mind many times to try to ensure that they all would fit without problems. I was in no huerry but this still took some weeks to be sure I had not made any glaring mistakes, as it costs money to fix mistakes and time!

You can design almost anything, but you also have to know if the present CNC machinery you own or hire can actually make the parts.  A new mount will prove many times more difficult than my few parts. I do not have access to CAD so it was all done the old way on paper first then in Word.

To be quite honest  the last time I actually did a formal complex engineering drawing using "T square" and paper was in 1970 during a 6 hour marine engineering exam for my Seconds Part A certificate of Engineering. Late on, I did learn to use a CAD program, but that was over 20 years ago, but have not used one since. I know the modern programs make life a lot easier once properly understood but you still need a high degree of understanding to use them effectively and efficiently. I am not making excuses for Mark, but development takes time. Hence there will be many pre production efforts.

So :-

Direct quote from Company Seven for an Astro Physics mount, I have highlighted a bit of their text!!

Quote.

Once your order is placed, sit back and relax anticipating the arrival of a true expression of fine craftsmanship and your rights to brag about how long you had to wait for yours. It has been common experience among our clientele that the time will go by faster if you can find a way to put it out of your mind; sending frequent E-Mails or calling asking for the production status will not make the work go any faster and tends to make the agony appear prolonged. The owner of Company Seven once ordered a 7" f/9 Apo telescope in February of one year for himself and later forgot about it so that by April of the following year, while reconciling orders, he was questioning whether or not he had actually ever placed that order with the factory! After being reminded that he had placed the order, he was condemned to be in agony with anticipation from then until delivery later in the year; incidentally this instrument is now at the University of Maryland Observatory. Remember: "Roland Christen will send no product before its time..."

End quote.

And these mounts are in full production not being actively developed or in RND.

Derek

[Neil27]

Well put Derek.

And just for the naysayers in this thread, here is some evidence at least that the Trident mount (previously OGEM) has been spotted in the wild.
At least another mount brought to the market can only benefit us, the end user for having more choice.

[andrew s]

I am pleased for those who ordered these mounts to see that they are shipping.

However, making a merit out of poor delivery and customer service, be it JTW or AP is in my opinion perverse.

Regards Andrew 

[newbie alert]

39 minutes ago, Physopto said:

 

I'm not going to quote what you said and I agree with most of it but would you of taken payment in full knowing that you hadn't  built a single component,  it was all theory other than a cad drawing .. 

If it had been built and those hurdles and stumbling blocks would of been realised and ironed out way before production.. so a year on,and the mount resembles nothing like what was initially sold.. yes it's been vastly improved as the original idea wasn't ever going to work

What was sold was an idea

[Neil27]

33 minutes ago, andrew s said:

I am pleased for those who ordered these mounts to see that they are shipping.

However, making a merit out of poor delivery and customer service, be it JTW or AP is in my opinion perverse.

Regards Andrew 

Sorry Andrew, can’t see anywhere in my post about making a celebration regarding late delivery or poor customer service just posting a fact that popped up on my Facebook feed.

[andrew s]

1 hour ago, Neil27 said:

Sorry Andrew, can’t see anywhere in my post about making a celebration regarding late delivery or poor customer service just posting a fact that popped up on my Facebook feed.

I was not commenting on your post but the one above.

Regards Andrew 

[Neil27]

8 minutes ago, andrew s said:

I was not commenting on your post but the one above.

Regards Andrew 

Understood, apologies for the confusion.

[Northernlight]

6 hours ago, Neil27 said:

Well put Derek.

And just for the naysayers in this thread, here is some evidence at least that the Trident mount (previously OGEM) has been spotted in the wild.
At least another mount brought to the market can only benefit us, the end user for having more choice.

Hi Neil,

I had someone message me as saying that the mount that has been delivered apparently only has a 35kg payload. Take this with a very big pinch of salt as i have no way to validate this claim, but wondered if anyone else has heard anything similar.

[phill76]

The mount you see in the image is the 100kg model with advised 75kg for AP, so i'm told by Mark.

I have had quite a few long conversations with him as you can imagine and you guys in here saying this and that yet none of you have your money down. 

I don't see anyone in here who's in this deal for these mounts complaining and discrediting JTW and if there is anyone who should or could be complaining publicly it's me, as i said. i paid 4k in march 2019!

So yes, take your 35kg payload with a pinch of salt because that's all it is and people private messaging in here to stir stuff up is wrong, morally. I told "someone" about a 35kg version and now its here. i do hope it didn't come from them so when you say "someone" that implies that you are not to discuss who.

From what i know. these mounts are the only mounts like it, they are going to the early birds and there will be production models. one full size and one 35kg model but even then i'm not sure 100% but i wanted to just stop you feeding off every little bit of bad or inconsistent news that you can find and using it against them for whatever motive or reasoning you have. I really think you should stop, or put your money where your mouth is and buy one....then you can complain and be a critic!

And believe me, i am not worried at all. i am not a fool and i am well capable of making complaints to Mark when i feel he needs to tighten up. he has me on his back all the time yet i am not here publicly putting his livelihood down so i cannot for the life of me understand why you are so persistent unless you have nothing better to do. 

 

 

[Neil27]

I agree 100% with your sentiments Phil. It would seem that certain members on this forum relish bashing the guy and what he is trying to achieve. I think the gestation period and birth of this mount is well documented and we all need to move on from those earlier issues.

I retire in 3 or 4 years time and am obviously keen to have as many mounts available to choose from, and along with other mounts on the market, Gemini, Ioptron, Sky Watcher, Mesu and now JTW we are in a great era of affordable high end, high capacity mounts. I for one welcome that state of affairs and wish Mark and JTW every success as I do all the other manufactures.
Peace and clear skies everyone.

[dahle]

13 hours ago, Northernlight said:

I had someone message me as saying that the mount that has been delivered apparently only has a 35kg payload. Take this with a very big pinch of salt as i have no way to validate this claim, but wondered if anyone else has heard anything similar.

 

35Kg ??? yes that's right .... but not for this mount !!! Mark thinks to be inspired by the Trident mount (100kg, recommended 75kg) to make a mount, the Kraken which will support 35 kg .. Like what false news (or rather incomplete information) can quickly spread and cause confusion.

"Our next project is the Kraken 35, a portable Trident derivative to carry 35 kg photographically" dixit Mark.

Alain

Edited May 29, 2020 by dahle