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Ogem mount - still vapour-ware or have they started shipping


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For those who have bought one of these but are not instrument design engineers, here are my thoughts. I happen to have designed and built very high resolution traction drives for special machines with similar accuracy requirements, though not for telescopes.
In friction mounts the weaknesses are:

1. susceptibility to moisture and dust (affects the reduction ratio of the friction final drive

2. low output torque (this is limited by the maximum safe contact pressure at the friction final drive that does not result in indentation - I note the reference to ceramic material which is interesting). There is an implication for maximum out-of-balance torque that the instrument payload can present to the mount.

3. the 'biggie' is usually what happens when an overload occurs, e.g., bumping into the scope. Unless a very reliable overload clutch is incorporated into the drivetrain, the friction wheel and pinion will slip, creating a flat spot on the pinion and introducing periodic error.

4. if absolute encoders are used that are not on the axis of the instrument, then position accuracy will be good for short goto moves but there will be inaccuracy over long moves due to slip at the traction drive. So plate-solving and syncing may be required, adding to move time in application involving lots of point-to-point moves.

The norm when buying a costly and complex instrument from a new supplier is to review the proposed design in detail before commissioning the project to proceed. In this case, as can be seen by scrutinising the various stages of mechanical R&D in phill76's post, all of these issues appear to have been visited.
The concerns I would have are:

1. whether the promoter had any real knowledge and experience of friction mounts at the point when he started commercialising his project, and perhaps more importantly, is he now an expert and a 'safe pair of hands' in the art of friction mounts?

2. what performance and specification does the current incarnation of this mount offer? What is the proposed maximum payload? What is the lowest natural frequency of vibration under that payload, when mounted as recommended? Are there provisions to wipe the surfaces of the contacting friction components to remove wear detritus? How effective is the sealing? What are the overload clutch arrangements? What is the max slewing speed, and worst-case following error? How much backlash is there on each axis? (the motors use high reduction gearheads - what is their spec?) Is the mount documented? Does it come with the servomotors tuned?

3. what sort of ongoing maintenance is needed? How is that to be delivered? What are the warranty terms? For how long are custom parts going to be available as spares (e.g. pinions and wheels)?

If I was in the market for one of these, I would be looking for a free evaluation unit (sale or return) so I could evaluate the answers to some of these questions - which I would be fairly confident are not currently available from the promoter.
As for Louis Mesu and his designs - I have the impression that his mounts reflect a lifetime of obsessive development of friction mounts and precision instruments, not just for astronomers but also for large engineering businesses in NL. He is arguably the definitive 'safe pair of hands'. 

 

Tony Owens

14 hours ago, phill76 said:

Hi all. 

I have been watching this thread for some time now and due to my involvement i have tried to keep quiet and not upset the apple cart.

Newbie alert was talking about me when he says he has a mate that had paid in full for its a very very long story and 63 emails later i still don't have my mount. 

In all fairness to Mark. i completely understand his issues and i have spoken with him on the phone about this whole saga and also what's been said in here and a few other places and he is aware and trying to do something about it.

So way back in March, i saw this mount on their website and thought i like the looks of this, all looked great. I first did some googling,found a few concerning posts/threads, like this one and i decided to email JTW and we started discussing the mount (OGEM) it was called back then. We spoke about these forum posts and i was reassured that the mount was all go and in production and he sent me a load of images of the parts etc.

Now i am a spur of the moment guy, i see something and if i want it then i want it and then my mind is set, i was convinced it was all good.  I had a few issues with cash and i wanted so i decided to just go WTH and stuck it on my credit card.  (oh dear i hear you all say)

i though thats fine i will just pay that off over a year and its not that bad.  Anyways, Paid. i think £3900 and was told delivery just after ATT which was May 17th i think. well that date rolled by and i started thinking wheres my mount and i had a lot of thoughts of what to do, i emailed, got no response for ages until i sent a strongly worded email and was then told another date in July and on it went. I ended up completely loosing my temper at Mark and lots of emails back and forth and he explained all the issues they were having and i explained the complete lack of communication was abysmal and i was at a point of wanting my cash back. 

Mark kindly agreed to fully upgrade "my" mount for free as i had only paid for the basic one, That's all i could afford. My argument was that he had sold me a mount that was as i suspected from the start as still in development and i was basically an early bird adopter that had paid full price . . He added me to the general mailing list for the "early birds" and in fairness to him, the communication got much better.  there was times where we went 2 months with no updates and again he got a crappy email from me detailing my displeasure and in the end we had a phonecall and i will get to the end of this soon. 

I personally think  that Mark should never have taken my money when he did almost 1yr ago to the day and just said that the early birds are all sold out and i would have to wait.  I can see why he did and he kinda took a gamble rather than loose a customer. his gamble was that he thought the OGEM was almost ready when truth be told as soon as they started testing they came upon massive problems and their own cost which has most likely put massive strain on him and his team for cashflow and upholding their promises to the early birds and ME, their first actual paying customer of this mount.

i see lots of negative comments in here and at the end of the day, the only people that really and truthfully have the right to complain are those of us that have parted cash and i don't think there is one in this whole thread until now that has stood up. 

I think Mark and his team are doing a great job in bringing a new mount to our community that can only help drive prices down for all. It's unfortunate all the time and miscomunications , some might say lies but i think put yourselves in his shoes and then mine. I paid 4k on a credit card, i am still paying it off now so its over 5k easily it's cost me and yes i could have just got a Mesu for that but i am just thankful that it is coming to an end and i will finally get to enjoy my mount. 

So i had an email yesterday. The mounts are coming to completion and i will post the whole email under this to show. 

Greetings everyone!

Ok here goes…

It’s finally done!

Glad that’s out the way but seriously this one, after some final touches, is leaving on Friday to be installed. I'll send you pictures once it's installed with all the accompanying tracking graphs, pictures of the night sky and star shapes from 1800s subs etc. Suffice to say it works and tracks like a dream.

This was what you all purchased way back in the distant past, if your memories can stretch back that long -

image.png.94f4b27d4c004900f7b26de53c051c7c.png

image.png.4feff2e4268cfe7aea6bd7f13fd0b4a4.png



This is where we are now, yes you may have invested in an OGEM but this is about as far removed from an OGEM as chalk and cheese. I am not going to bore you with the bumpy road we've all had to get to this point, as we all are painfully aware of the timescales and bruises we carry.

image.thumb.png.9b0fe619d89614aa0b7505262ba06dfb.pngimage.thumb.png.99eeb7eb1f2b5034bd73605433a80f29.png

 

Once this mount is installed and I have done as I said above, I will begin shipping


As much as I have kept you waiting when it arrives and your happy please please post pictures of the mount and images you take as this project has nearly killed me to get to this stage and although some of you are paved your help once you are happy would be much appreciated.

Humble thanks

Mark

  

I have been told that i am not getting this version but the full on production version and he has sent me an image but also asked me not to share it about just yet so i feel that my patience will be paid off. 

This is my first post in here, I have long been a member of this forum but i don't normally get involved except this project affected me quite a lot and although i have held back a few times from posting my frustration and now feel that it was the right time to say something. 

I honestly feel that JTW are really on to something here and they like any developer have had to spend the time to get it right. yes their reputation may be tarnished by all these delays but once the mounts start getting turned out and the reports come back good ( because they have spent the time ironing issues out) that their reputation will soon be turned around and it may make other crazy expensive manufacturers start to look at their prices. 

The only thing they really did wrong was sell a mount to me ( i dont know is they have sold any others like me) because the rest were early birds paying a far cheaper price and knowingly getting involved in pretty much a "kickstarter" campaign so with them you pay, and you wait. 

Im sure this post will spark many debate but i had to come and tell you of my sometimes really annoying year but also the good that should come of it. 

 

Kind regards

Phill

 

http://www.facebook.com/buck1andAstro/

 

 

 

 

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Anyone received their  Ogem / Trident / Mesu clone yet ?

 

@phill76   It makes me laugh that they saying they are doing final testing and putting final touches to mount as they said that back in July 2019

https://www.facebook.com/jtwastronomy/posts/successful-testing-of-our-trident-telescope-mount-100-kg-payload-friction-drivet/2282542351801323/

 

Maybe after they have done their Final Final touches, people might start to get their mounts for xmas.

 

 

Edited by Northernlight
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I think it's just more BS to buy more time. They have been testing for the last year just about and each time there is always a different excuse for the delay.

Are you really going to trust a company like JTW if you have any problems - I can see it now.........yes mr Smith your repaired mount is really on its way to you.......3 years later......well mr Smith, your repair has been delayed again as there was another solar flare that stopped us from shipping again 

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Mark@JTW, how about you just reply to me on the forum instead of sending me messages via facebook and start by telling people the exact date they are getting their mounts, and when they receive them on the date you specify, then i'll stop  making fun of JTW

Edited by Northernlight
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8 hours ago, Northernlight said:

and when they receive them on the date you specify, then i'll stop  making fun of JTW

I have just read this entire thread. I don't know you, I don't know the manufacturer of the OGEM mount and I don't know anything about it apart from what I've read here. My observation though is that what you are doing here has nothing to do with 'making fun'. You may well have good reason to bear a grudge based on your personal experiences and are obviously entitled to voice your opinion but your contributions to this thread just seem to be a string of comments 'having a go'. I'm not defending that company (I know nothing about it) or this saga but I think it would be better if you stated the facts and told people why you feel the way you do and then move on. I'm sure the people who ordered these mounts are more than capable to fight their corner.

Maybe I'm wrong about all this but I'm just surprised to see this on Stargazers lounge which normally seems to be a very courteous place.

 

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Good morning all,


I am French and please excuse the translation by Translate Google.


Given the vehemence of a certain Mr. @Northernlight, I had to intervene. I don't know who you are, what you do, or what Mark did to you. As far as I am concerned, I ordered a Trident mount and a 350mm Newton telescope in November 2018.

Of course I expected this delivery much sooner! of course I hated Mark at times. Of course there are times when I wanted to give up everything and get my money back!


But I'm still here. Why? Can we blame Mark for not delivering an unsuccessful frame: NO.

Can we blame Mark for being a perfectionist: NO.

Can we blame Mark for having big problems: NO.


I have had many discussions with him and I can assure you that he is a man of integrity and he is not a thief. He could have delivered us a mount with a periodic error unacceptable and with a failed controller. But he did not do it .Yes we must wait and wait again if at the end we will have a mount worthy of the name.

When you are "Early Birds" you take risks and you are conscious  from the beginning. I have a friend who ordered an eVscope. He just received it: three and a half years of waiting. So be indulgent Mr. @Northernlight, and stop your anemosity towards Mark, please. And judge not the man but the Trident mount when it is operational.
Another bit of patience, thank you.
And don't forget that right now there is confinement in many countries, which doesn't help.
Take good care of yourself and your loved ones.

Alain

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AngryDonkey / Alaine, you make fair points in that i've maybe taken it a little to far, but it was meant as tongue in cheek,   But I would like to point out that I have never once accused him of being a Thief as has been suggested.

I'm happy to sit back and just see how this thing unfolds without further comment to clam the waters as i can see that it is upsetting some forum members, which i dont want to do. And for those of you that i have upset - I apologise.

 

Edited by Northernlight
update
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@Northernlighteveryone is free to express themselves and say what they think. This is the principle of a forum. I just wanted to clarify things. The only thing we have with Mark is .... patience! But isn't this one of the virtues of the amateur astronomer? 😉

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I agree, so i suppose i have to give Mark his dews that he is bringing more competition to the market, and as a result i see he has stiff competition from Gemini, as i think someone posted that they are doing a mount <3000 euro / £ so it benefits us all.

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4 hours ago, dahle said:

Can we blame Mark for not delivering an unsuccessful frame: NO.

Can we blame Mark for being a perfectionist: NO.

Can we blame Mark for having big problems: NO.

 

Of course we can. He is the one taking people's money and delivering nothing but broken promises.

 

On 10/04/2020 at 01:19, phill76 said:

I had a few issues with cash and i wanted so i decided to just go WTH and stuck it on my credit card.  (oh dear i hear you all say)

That's probably the smartest thing that you did. Section 75 protections means that the credit card company is jointly and severally liable. This means that the credit card provider is as liable as JTW for the failure to deliver. You have waited for over a year for the item. At this stage I would ignore JTW and go straight to the CC provider and make a claim for a full refund, including the interest paid.

 

On 10/04/2020 at 16:05, steppenwolf said:

That's Lucas - top guy!

I and others that I have spoken to have had to spend months trying to diagnose and fix problems with mesu mounts with poor support from the supplier and manufacturer. Buyer beware in all situations, but personally I will never buy another item of this value from a one-man-band bloke in a shed. These people are enthusiasts and cannot seperate their personal pride and can often see justified criticism as some sort of personal slight. I know that it's not a done thing to criticise Mesu's products, but I have months of emails and PMs from people in the UK and in Europe that were left struggling to find fixes. Caveat Emptor.

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57 minutes ago, Northernlight said:

To be fair - I can admit when i'm wrong and when i've maybe taken the joke too far.  Hopefully when the mounts arrive then they will all work perfectly and everyone will be happy.

👍😄🥂

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24 minutes ago, Zakalwe said:

I will never buy another item of this value from a one-man-band bloke in a shed

... Maybe, but which company can boast of having a real after sales service worthy of the name now ??

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3 minutes ago, dahle said:

... Maybe, but which company can boast of having a real after sales service worthy of the name now ??

Not withstanding recent issues with their new web site I have found Software Bisque to have a good after sales service. They have been very good at helping with both hardware and software issue over a number of years.

Regards Andrew 

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37 minutes ago, Zakalwe said:

but personally I will never buy another item of this value from a one-man-band bloke in a shed.

You clearly haven't seen his premises then!

37 minutes ago, Zakalwe said:

I know that it's not a done thing to criticise Mesu's products, but I have months of emails and PMs from people in the UK and in Europe that were left struggling to find fixes. Caveat Emptor.

Absolutely you should criticise if that has been your experience - just as I should report as I find too!

 

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57 minutes ago, steppenwolf said:

You clearly haven't seen his premises then!

 

Nope, and neither am I interested in seeing them. What I want is when I spend £5K on a product is support. Not a shirty email because someone's ego has been wounded. Nor do I want to spend months trawling the Internet trying to get fixes.

My experience has massively dented my interest in this hobby.

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