Horse head nebula

[quimby44]

Hi could you please tell me what you need to see this nebula ie what size telescope and best eye piece and of course a clear sky thanks Stephen 

[Prador]

After googling around the general theme seems to be you would need a large scope (12"+) and very favourable conditions. A very dark sky is probably needed to stand any chance of viewing the horsehead.

[Paul73]

Hi Stephen

The Horse Head nebula is one of the most sought and most underwhelming visual target in the Sky. Even with a 20” scope under dark sky, it is just a vaguely horsey notch in a faint nebula edge.

But, since you ask. From the UK. You need at least a 12” scope (it is a struggle in my 16” scope), Hbeta filter and an eyepiece giving a 4-5mm exit pupil..... and very transparent Sky.

People have done it with smaller scopes from further south and darker, drier sky’s.

Paul

PS. I can think of a couple of hundred targets that are visually more appealing that the HH. But, off you are after a challenge....

[Charic]

I've not seen it visually through my 8" though I've had far less  than perfect conditions here in the past ( different now ?) but I'd expect I'd still need a larger aperture, witness  to the earlier responses.
My avatar image was manufactured!

[mert]

Have seen it with 16 and 22 inch scopes under very dark skies. It’s not very special to look at. I also managed it once with a 12” Meade SCT. It’s challenging, even on very clear nights my 22 would struggle. 

[bish]

Perfect sky conditions at a very dark site. At least a 10" scope (although people have seen it in smaller) and Hbeta filter. Even then don't expect to see something that resembles a horse.

[GavStar]

This thread has some good information regarding visual observation of the horse head

 

[scarp15]

As above mentioned by Gavin, though since this thread had been started I have yet to gain an opportunity to observe B33 this season, the weather particularly being as it is, new moon phase in next two weeks anyhow. The first thing to do is get familiar with online sketches. A good example for an observers resource is Belt of Venus - Perezmedia.net. However last time I visited his example for B33, IC434 was not available. This is a difficult subject in perfect circumstances, you may be best advised to perhaps see if you can get together with a group or someone experienced. I would suggest that you take a look at the Belt of Venus resource and study the observation for the Flame Nebula NGC 2024 as a more credible yet still quite challenging  observation. Again this topic is discussed in depth in the Observers Deep Sky section. If or when Night Vision technology becomes a little more widely accessible to more observers, this approach will perhaps become more the defining standard. 

[JRM]

Have never seen it visually, looked with my 12" but nothing, hope to get a peek at it with my 20 if I ever get it done, good luck though, and post a report to let us know what you thought of the experience once you do get the chance.

Rick M

[noah4x4]

Never seen the Horsehead visually through my 8", but found it surprisingly easily with camera/Hyperstar.  Frankly,  I have given up visual astronomy as local light pollution is appalling and my dearest dark sky site is too distant. I struggle to see any DSOs via an eyepiece but, EAA rarely disappoints. 

[John]

3 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

Never seen the Horsehead visually through my 8", but found it surprisingly easily with camera/Hyperstar.  Frankly,  I have given up visual astronomy as local light pollution is appalling and my dearest dark sky site is too distant. I struggle to see any DSOs via an eyepiece but, EAA rarely disappoints. 

I'm not an imager but my understanding is that the Horsehead Nebula is a pretty easy object to capture when imaging using quite straightforward methods even from skies with some light pollution. Capturing it is one thing though but I suspect that getting a really nice image of it needs much more application and skill.

Observing it visually (without the use ot night vision technology) is at the other end of the scale with regards to a challenge. I really like Jeremy Perez's description of this target from his excellent "Belt of Venus" website:

".... Really, it's like trying to see a little bit of nothing with a little bit of less than nothing resting over it...."

 

[noah4x4]

23 minutes ago, John said:

 Capturing it is one thing though but I suspect that getting a really nice image of it needs much more application and skill.

 

This is where AP is different from EAA.

I have no interest in capturing a "really nice image" suffice to win 'Astrophotographer of the year' as that typically requires adding flats, darks and other post processing to remove dust, noise etc. To me, "nice image" AP moves the paradigm into the world of Art and away from pure Science as AP leads to the production of false touched up images. I am not saying that isn't a worthy and enjoyable hobby, simply that it's not  EAA that requires all the skills of visual astronomy. 

I suspect the visual astronomer would similarly see EAA as the production of (at least) artificially enhanced images. But at least they are only electronically assisted and natural (not post processed). It's the only way I will ever OBSERVE the Horsehead from my light polluted back yard. When I view an object 'near live' it will be high resolution and in colour, however, it doesn't completely lose that 'faint fuzzies' characteristic of an eyepiece.  If I wanted to view perfect  "nice images" I would agree with the ardent visual astronomer..... look on the Internet for Hubble pictures.

[John]

I didn't intend to start a debate about the merits of visual vs AP vs EAA.

LP levels are gradually increasing here as well so I'm glad I managed to glimpse the HH a couple of times from my back yard last year - it might not be possible in future

[jetstream]

One thing I don't understand is why the HH is so easy around 15x with NV and I can't see it in my 90mm frac when IC434 is easy-under vg conditions. On my series of dark site trips when I first started I reported (with confusion) seeing IC434 (as well as the Merope neb) which raised eyebrows. The point is that I've observed this area for years, under good skies and still need larger aperture to see it (HH)- actually larger object size at a large exit pupil...

I have observed the HH scores of times and my advice to the OP is to get to dark skies with a minimum 10" fast dob- but bigger will be better IMHO. Just a thought.

[GavStar]

3 hours ago, jetstream said:

One thing I don't understand is why the HH is so easy around 15x with NV and I can't see it in my 90mm frac when IC434 is easy-under vg conditions. On my series of dark site trips when I first started I reported (with confusion) seeing IC434 (as well as the Merope neb) which raised eyebrows. The point is that I've observed this area for years, under good skies and still need larger aperture to see it (HH)- actually larger object size at a large exit pupil...

I have observed the HH scores of times and my advice to the OP is to get to dark skies with a minimum 10" fast dob- but bigger will be better IMHO. Just a thought.

Gerry, I can see the notch of the horsehead at 3x with NV. I think it’s also possible to make it out at 1x. My guess is that this is because NV is focused on ha where the signal is strong whereas glass visual is focused on hb where the signal is significantly less strong?

 

[alanjgreen]

3 hours ago, jetstream said:

One thing I don't understand is why the HH is so easy around 15x with NV and I can't see it in my 90mm frac when IC434 is easy-under vg conditions. On my series of dark site trips when I first started I reported (with confusion) seeing IC434 (as well as the Merope neb) which raised eyebrows. The point is that I've observed this area for years, under good skies and still need larger aperture to see it (HH)- actually larger object size at a large exit pupil...

I have observed the HH scores of times and my advice to the OP is to get to dark skies with a minimum 10" fast dob- but bigger will be better IMHO. Just a thought.

Observing using Night Vision devices and observing with your mark one eyeball are two completely different things and cannot be directly compared. Night Vision devices are strong in the red end of the spectrum, your mark one eyeball is terrible in the red but better in blue and green. Night Vision is weak in blue and green.

Night Vision can be paired with a Ha filter (the more expensive the night vision then the stronger the filter that can be used) to get great views of objects that emit in red such as emission nebula. Your eyeball can be paired with an O3 filter (blue) to pull out stronger blues that your eye is sensitive to see such as reflection nebula.

Here is a page from Braken's "The Astrophotography Sky Atlas", note the colour key at the top and then note how strong IC434 is in RED (signified by the darker red colour) - it is IC434 that the NV can see well, the HH is a just black shape.

This is why IC434 and therefore the HH is easy peasy when using night vision devices.

[If your Night Vision has a low EBI spec value then it can do really black blacks and that makes these Hydrogen and dark nebula pop out better too].

You have seen how well Barnards loop comes out with Night Vision and this is a fairly weak red signal

Now, look at the Witch Head in the diagram, with my Chroma 5nm Ha filter and 20” aperture, I can just trace the edges of the object. With the same scope, O3 filter and a 21 Ethos, I can see the interior. 

With nebula it’s “horses for courses” but this book is a real gem in getting on top of these pesky nebula.

 

HTH,

Alan

[estwing]

Let's leave the NV outta this pls guys as the OP hasn't mentioned the use of it.

12" scope under dark skies and good transparency with a HB filter should gain results. I caught it from Bala using my 18" and a UHC filter, it was tough and I was on the target for at least an hour...Isle of Skye it took 5 secs with a 2" HB filter . Ignore ep advice on exit pupil as eps from 31mm nag down to 8mm ethos all work ...it's dark skies and transparency that will help you here.

Another point is you will only be disappointed if you keep looking at photographs of it instead of sketches.

I was mighty impressed with it considering how many haven't seen it, it's all about the hunt and confirmation of bagging the target not what the target looks like..clear skies and have fun, Calv.

[Tim]

Well I have spent literally hundreds of hours imaging the Horsehead, in every filter you can think of. I have also spent many hours observing it, and for me, it is always a thrill. I first saw it visually at a reasonably dark site, Kelling Heath, through somebody's 16" Lightbridge dob with Hbeta filter. Really memorable experience for me.  These days I use my 18" dob with Lumicon UHC filter, usually at Kelling, and have to say it still does the business for me. I especially like it through my 13mm Ethos and 21mm Ethos eyepieces.  Finding it is made easier by learning the star patterns, which are easy here. Also, if you cn see the Horsey, you should get a quite decent view of the nearby Flame nebula too.

[scarp15]

Perhaps with moderate size aperture i.e. 10", 12" 14", eyepiece selection / exit pupil consideration is more applicable, 20mm to 25mm seems to provide good outcomes, therefore either side of around 4mm exit pupil. I have seen this nebula with my 13mm ethos and 14" dob, but I preferred the image through my 20mm or 25mm plossl. Whilst it was there in the 13mm, I only registered this because I had determined decisive enough observations at just under or over 4mm exit pupil. Quite understand that by increasing to 18" in aperture, a 13mm ethos for example will yield a satisfying outcome.  

[cletrac1922]

Have seen it using my 10" Dob

I live fairly light polluted free environment as well

Try the Orion Nebula first, then go from there

There is a good image taken by one of our club members, this months club news letter

John

[John]

I think you need to be able to see the Flame Nebula reasonably well to have a chance of seeing the Horsehead. To be more precise you need to give yourself the chance of seeing the faint elongated glow of the emission nebula IC 434 which is a target that the H-Beta filter will enhance. Once you feel you are seeing that (and it's a very ellusive target itself even with the filter) Barnard 33 (The Horsehead Nebula) might be seen as a subtle dark shape or soft edged notch laying across IC 434. It's not going to look much like a horses head though !

Jeremy Perez's sketches and description are very good I think although I have to say that my sightings with my 12 inch dobsonian have not been as distinct as his sketches made under dark Arizona skies show with his 6 inch scope !

http://www.perezmedia.net/beltofvenus/archives/000379.html

I think this sketch by Michael Vlasov is close to the view that I got. He was using an 8 inch newtonian in the Negev Desert so I'm pleased that I managed to get where I did with my 12 inch from North Somerset just 12 miles SW of Bristol !

 

[mikeDnight]

On 19/01/2019 at 15:33, quimby44 said:

Hi could you please tell me what you need to see this nebula ie what size telescope and best eye piece and of course a clear sky thanks Stephen 

Transparent skies and excellent dark adaption will definitely help. Using averted vision study the region at length. Be prepared to spend 30 mins or longer under a blackout hood, and try to keep Alnitak out of the field. Even subdued lighting from your surroundings can be a massive distraction which will impede the process of becoming truly dark adapted. You should be able to eventually make out the subtle glow of IC434 set against a jet black wall of dust. The horse head appeared to me as nothing more than a very small and ill defined notch protruding into IC434. I was using a 100mm fluorite refractor and it took me the best part of an hour before I had studied the region fully!

[jock1958]

 

16 hours ago, John said:

I think this sketch by Michael Vlasov is close to the view that I got. He was using an 8 inch newtonian in the Negev Desert so I'm pleased that I managed to get where I did with my 12 inch from North Somerset just 12 miles SW of Bristol !

Thanks for the share of those sketches John.   It's great to see what equipment and conditions you need to realistically stand a chance of seeing the HH.   

[jock1958]

3 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

The horse head appeared to me as nothing more than a very small and ill defined notch protruding into IC434. I was using a 100mm fluorite refractor and it took me the best part of an hour before I had studied the region fully!

Mike, you've given me some hope that I might be able to see it with my Tak......if the weather ever improves down here ?

[scarp15]

It is necessary to highlight that this is a beginners thread debating a subject that is considered to be a challenge for skilled observers at a dark transparent location using a high quality H-beta filter. It is probably not helpful regarding the following

Suggest using a 'high end' 4" scope with no filter in a suburban environment

Disregard the valid requirement for considered exit pupil (applied particularly to moderate sized scopes)

Emphasis on Night Vision - this may be confusing, to a beginner and not an option for most. 

To successfully engage with observing this requires time, patience and experience. As previously mentioned, becoming familiar with observers sketched observations and focusing upon - becoming accustomed to, observe similar targets that are not quite as challenging and always - if at all possible, in a dark sky / transparent location, is the way forward. Winter star parties can provide a good opportunity, if the weather is favourable and interacting directly with an experienced observer at such an event very helpful.