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About noah4x4

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  1. noah4x4

    4K UHD display - remote controlled EAA?

    Have come across another solution that is a little cheaper than two computers. It involves this device. .https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extender-Uncompressed-4K60Hz-Latency-Bi-directional-2-4k60Hz-HDMI-KVM-4KEX100-KVM/dp/B072DTHWV3/ref=sr_1_cc_3?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1542392417&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=HDMI+kvm+extender You put the 'transmitter' component at the NUC at the scope and from NUC run a single Cat6 cable to the 'receiver' indoors. You then connect Keyboard and mouse to it by USB2 and Monitor by HDMI. Seemingly works over very long distances.
  2. This information might assist, or assist a future reader seeking similar information. I have an MKIT20-WL wireless autofocuser and can recommend it. If using its direct wireless route you need no local Network (it works like Celestron direct WiFi). The wireless receiver is about the size of a pack of cards (easily velcroed to OTA). So the added weight at the scope is minimal. It requires 12v, but draws little amperage. Its hand controller is larger, about the size of a small paperback book, and it also requires 12v/2 Amps. That connects to your laptop where for autofocus you need to be running FocusMax. However FocusMax only works with SG Pro or Maxim DL. You can see how the cost might escalate. I also found SG Pro unnecessarily complex for my EAA needs. But more simply, the MKIT20-WL itself has a learning mode and auto-temperature compensation adjustment. To be frank, I havn't used Focusmax or Temperature Adjustment. I always use Hyperstar so my exposures are extremely short and in the UK temperature adjustment isn't a major challenge unless doing extreme long exposures (which I don't). But what I did discover was whilst this wireless set up was great for focuser control when doing remote EAA from my indoor 'mission control' it wasn't ideal when doing visual astronomy whilst stood at the scope with the controller indoors. Eventually I put an Intel NUC at the scope and connected that to another Intel NUC indoors that controlled the former using Windows Remote Desktop. This might be over 802.11ac wireless (which I found flaky) or cat 6 cable. I could then locate the focuser hand controller at the scope and link that to the NUC at the scope by USB. I could then use its up/down buttons during visual astronomy at the scope or use its Microtouch software to control focus remotely from the NUC indoors. So save some money, as if you have two computers available you don't need the wireless version of this Microfocuser! The standard version is adequate. I now focus using only the simple focus tool in Atik's Infinity Software. This uses FMHW methodology and I consistently get down to a low number below 3. If 'Infinity' is then set to reject stacks with focus under 5 it works superbly.
  3. noah4x4

    4K UHD display - remote controlled EAA?

    Thanks Synchronicity, sorry, I didn't try TeamViewer as there is an issue with current 'free' version. You must be connected to the Internet to use TeamViewer presumably so that they can check there is no commercial use. If you want 'peer to peer' you must pay with TeamViewer (so don't upgrade from an older working version!). Similarly with Remote Desktop one of the computers must be running Windows 10 Professional, so no option is 'free. I did discover a Russian located 'free service' but my A/V and Firewall persuaded me not to try it! Windows Remote Desktop works fine with 4K UHD if you have sufficiently powerful graphics computers and the necessary bandwidth. Yes, I do remember the remarkably recent past. As recently as 2004 I was working with a Los Angeles company trying to implement 'emailVideo' which was basically a marketing email that played video over the Internet on <click>. We failed (run out of investment!) because the prevailing Internet bandwidth was 28k and we were lucky if we got a Flash animation down the wires let alone a human image. Yet today, live 1080p 'HD' Internet video streaming is routine and 4K UHD feasible (with buffering etc). But domestic WiFi still has limits. But technology progresses so fast I envisage 4K UHD photography and computing might be mainstream in merely a few years. I decided I had to succeed today having bought a 16 megapixel camera as I like such challenges. My original laptop offered only 802.11n, so I disabled that and replaced it with a 802.11ac wireless adapter and 5Ghz. It worked fine with 1080p HD, but wasn't 4K UHD enabled. My two NUCs with Iris Plus 640 Graphics can handle 4k UHD but the 802.11ac wireless suffered from occasional lag. Once I added autofocuser and other peripherals it got worse and that is when I decided Cat 6 cable was probably the only ideal solution today. That works fine. BTW, if there is ever a world shortage of wireless adapters, USB3 cables, USB2 cables; HDMI cables, Thunderbolt display cables, hubs/routers and other assorted bits please call me. I tried the lot before reverting to Cat 6. But wireless WILL work with less demanding cameras. My Atik Horizon desires at least USB3, and that is only reliable under 15 Metres.
  4. noah4x4

    4K UHD display - remote controlled EAA?

    Thanks Stash-old. Flattered by your suggestion that my post should be pinned. I was very careful to not mention 'real time' which I agree is not possible. I deliberately said "near live" which I think can be justified. I can have a credible view on screen of a really bright DSO (like the Orion Nebula) in two seconds with Hyperstar. It probably then takes ten stacks to tease out the full detail so I might argue that the 'near live' delay is only 20 seconds. But it's not 'real time'. But even the two second image is more detailed than an eyepiece 'faint fuzzy.'. However, other faint objects might require an exposure of 20 seconds and twenty stacks to bring out their detail, but that is still only a total of 6 + minutes. If not on Hyperstar the equivalent might take over two hours to replicate using long exposure AP at the focal length of most scopes. I am not arguing that Hyperstar quality is better, just faster and more forgiving for a novice (e.g. no polar alignment, no wedge or autoguiding required). But I always chuckle at any debate about time/delay and it's relevance to astro-cameras given that the photons might have taken 250 light years to reach your sensor. Is even a day of delay of relevance in that context? I have to agree that WiFi is over rated and can be troublesome, but it seems today's generation can't be without phone or tablet. I can because (notwithstanding that I now view indoors) the tablet screen ruined my averted vision. After a while, I also couldn't see the merit of watching the cursor go blip, blip, blip across my screen. However, it has merit if it means cable free. That's where the grief starts and the money pit opens. It is possible with low specification astro cameras, but buy anything more serious and the best available consumer bandwidth may cause challenges. It's not impossible, but with each added device (focuser etc) the risk of failure increases. Cat 6 cable wins every time IMHO .
  5. A popular way to set up a remote controlled EAA rig is to use two computers with one at the scope controlled by another located in warm 'mission control' typically by adopting TeamViewer or Windows Remote Desktop via wireless or cabled communication. Most current laptops have a 1080p 'HD' (high definition) display. My astro camera is 16 megapixels (hence exceeding '4K UHD' ultra high definition). So the challenge I set myself was send its display output to a 4K UHD monitor located indoors. Today, it's an expensive and extravant challenge which most EAA enthusiasts cannot justify as 1080p 'HD' remains excellent and the cost of upgrading to UHD is high. But with the advent of retail 8k display technologies launched by Samsung and Sony in August I suspect 4K UHD may soon become far more mainstream, just as 1080p rapidly replaced 720p. This thread explains how to embrace it. Sadly, the gulf between ever higher specification astro cameras and computing/display technology was far bigger than I ever anticipated. Having succeeded, I can confirm that the combination of a large sensor, small pixel, high resolution, low read noise, CMOS camera combined with a telescope of short focal length (I use Hyperstar) works really well for EAA with the higher specification 'UHD' display. In particular, a larger screen creates an immersive feeling and <zoom> is more effective as pixelation (images going blocky) doesn't occur until higher levels of magnification. Here are some tips from my experience for anybody that wants to try this. Any camera outputting the equivalent of 4K resolution (or higher) demands a lot of computing processing power. I have an i5 Intel NUC with Iris Plus 640 Graphics at the scope. Caution, if you buy a computer of any lower specification as the data demands of such high specification cameras are intensive. I am not convinced cheap 'compute sticks' or similar will suffice beyond 1080p. Some do claim '4k' but the small print confirms that is only achievable at 30hz. You really need around a 60hz refresh rate for 4K UHD EAA purposes e.g. 'near live' observing with a screen replacing eyepiece, which is not to be confused with AP/imaging. For EAA a fast on screen response to the data received is critical whereas with AP you will be accustomed to sit out all night capturing a single image (so data transmission delay is not important). I do EAA to overcome urban light pollution. I don't even save 'images'. 4K UHD is not that relevant to AP as whatever you capture typically gets post processed, cropped and resampled. With EAA it's about observing and pertinently observing now. DC power then becomes a challenge as suitably powerful computers require 12v - 20v and demand 40+ watts at peak load. Whilst a NUC in theory will run at 12v in my experience it won't tolerate any voltage drop. I found many 12v power units fast deplete to perhaps 11.7 volts and that can be problematic. My solution was a MaxOak K2 that offers 185 watt-hours and a 20v output (closer to 19.3v in truth) that will run for about seven hours and weighs about 1Kg. If you pair the more powerful graphics capable computer (outdoors) with a 1080p laptop (indoors) using TeamViewer or Windows Remote Desktop the display result will be mere 'HD' as the lesser computers display will inevitably limit the resolution. The same is true if computer roles are reversed. The question then that nobody in any forum where I enquired could answer was if I ran two NUCs each with Iris Plus 640 graphics with the second connected to a 4K UHD monitor by Thunderbolt display cable would that ensure an 'end to end' 4K UHD result? The doubt was whether TeamViewer and/or Windows Remote Desktop might degrade the image and/or was any compression they impose likely to put a ceiling on display? I simply had to try. To my relief it works fine. I now have a satisfactory 'end to end' 4K UHD EAA system. BUT......the downsides (beyond cost).... I discovered the band width of even 802.11ac wireless struggled to handle the connection betwen the two computers, not helped by conflicts between USB3 and USB2 devices. I suffered a degree of lag and drop outs when adopting wireless (at 4K UHD). I then tried 'active' USB3 cable and beyond 10 Metres that too was flaky. The only solution that provided enough connectivity to deliver the 4k UHD experience over any reasonable distance was Cat 6 cable via a router/hub. Was It worth the technical challenges and expense? Now I have succeeded I think yes. However, I can think of many better astro projects to commit money too if I had not already completed them. Frankly, a 1080p display is great and today 4K UHD is an indulgent and extravagant luxury. However, if 4K UHD computers and display devices become more affordable (which is the pattern of past advances in technology and "8k" is now retailing) I guess somebody will find the information in this thread valuable. My overriding advice; don't underestimate the computing power; or DC power or bandwidth required to embrace 4k UHD.
  6. noah4x4

    ASI1600 first light

    +1 For the IDAS light pollution filter. Much better with this sensor than the alternatives. I also find Hyperstar helps as a 20 second exposure is equivant to around nine minutes. I can hence do more stuff between the clouds and have become much more productive whilst it cuts through light pollution. I will never win Astrophotographer of the year but "cheating" with Hyperstar allows me to have highly satisfying hobby without the frustration of wedge, polar alignment and guiding.
  7. noah4x4

    ASI1600 first light

    Not surprised to hear your laptop froze. I have the equivalent Atik Horizon and discovered my average laptop was taking a real pounding from these large sensor, high resolution, small pixel, low read noise CMOS cameras which are data and processor hungry. My camera (cooled) also requires almost 2 Amps so it gobbles as many watts as my mount. I now regularly advise people to never underestimate the computing or power required with each step up the imaging ladder. Modern CMOS are somewhat more demanding than 1k resolution CCD. My original Celeron laptop simply choked and spluttered. I now run mine connected to an Intel NUC with Iris 640 Plus Graphics and output using a Thunderbolt display cable to a 4K UHD monitor. 4K UHD isn't necessary for AP, but it's great fun for EAA, especially on Hyperstar that renders long exposures unnecessary. However, small pixels are not always an advantage where objects are faint. There I use binning, which combines pixels and is hence more sensitive but at the expense of resolution. These are great cameras for people with limited photography skills as they are very forgiving.
  8. When I first got my Evolution I was paranoid about OTA balance. Frankly, three years forward and I reckon it's largely irrelevant albeit material to other scopes. I now install Hyperstar and a camera on the front of my Evolution and often forget to swap in the Hyperstar counterweight to replace eyepiece and diagonal. If anything, I reckon making my OTA front heavy has improved GoTo and Tracking performance. However, I have recently noticed something else really odd. I now use the Celestron external GPS accessory with Starsense HC and use my tablet offline merely as a object 'map'. I don't miss it's glaring impact on my averted vision and with hindsight question the benefit of the 'blip, blip, blip' of the cursor across the screen. I prefer to look at the sky (or camera/computer screen). I switched control device back to Starsense HC because I noticed a typical 40 seconds difference between GPS time and that "current" on my Android tablet, which in turn differs from the time "current" on my Laptop, yet the latter two are connected to the same network. I also live 65 miles from London which I have found (notably when combined with the time discrepancy) makes selecting 'City' far less accurate than latitude/longitude. The Evolution has metal worm gears and whilst I can't comment on other OTA sizes the 8" when front heavy seems to have no issues like backlash. It's much better than the SE Series and it's plastic gears. EDIT You can remove the Evolution's rubber eyepiece tray if you want a bit more clearance. A wedge adds more clearance (infernal device though, I prefer Hyperstar).
  9. noah4x4

    Remotely Controlling Imaging Queries

    Another thought about CMOS... An argument for larger pixels is that they are useful on faint objects. That is not in dispute. However, the Atik Horizon albeit a native large sensor, tiny pixel camera can offer "bigger" pixels simply by full full colour binning. Here, combining pixels enhances sensitivity at the expense of resolution. This is possible because CMOS binning is achieved by software rather than on-chip (CCD uses that). Hence, one of the major arguments for CCD is less relevant. I can use high resolution on bright objects and lower on faint objects. Having flexibility and control ticks another box. A new generation of budget CMOS will similarly offer the best of both worlds, but at lower price than equivalent CCD. I hope you don't have to wait too long Steve, but it is sound advice to first experiment with your DSLR and existing laptop, so a little patience until we see what Atik announce is sensible.
  10. noah4x4

    Remotely Controlling Imaging Queries

    A fair observation today about respective audiences based on equipment price adyj1. But let me make a prediction about next years NEW audience..... Whilst the Atik Horizon OSC and ZWO ASI1600 retail at circa (I agree expensive) £1,200 they are replicating features of far more expensive CCDs. Let's not debate "CCD versus CMOS" as CCD will probably win on technical grounds. But CMOS wins on price by a comfortable margin when comparing features. Almost all DSLRs and phone cameras are now CMOS. I perceive that the reason CMOS hasn't yet had similar impact in the astro-community is perhaps our own stubborn resistance to change. Yes, CCD is possiby better for AP, but that isn't tne only purpose of an astro camera. I am similarly amazed that we still operate in a paradigm of serial to USB devices and Windows 8 compatibility, but I digress. The break through made by this new generation of easy to use CMOS, high resolution, large sensor, low read noise, small pixel cameras will hopefully pave the way to encourage manufacturers to soon introduce a wider range of budget CMOS astro-cameras that are far more affordable. However, a perceived current lack of demand means CMOS sensor manufacturers are inevitably not focused on supporting the low volume astro-community, so we are our own worse enemies. But EAA and CMOS enthusiasts (like me) can encourage positive change. Having recently talked to some manufacturers, I think this could happen quite soon, possibly around the end of this year when Steve (OP) might be buying (e.g. having wisely first tested the water with his DSLR and his existing laptop). We are possibly on the brink of a CMOS revolution. The astrophotographers will probably continue with CCD (fair enough), but ever worsening light pollution is stimulating a new and ever faster growing generation of EAA enthusiasts and that will stimulate demand for cheaper but higher specification CMOS cameras. In the event that this happens (which seems inevitable) purchasors of this new generation of affordable budget CMOS cameras will regret not investing in marginally more in computing and display power today. That is why I advocate some future proofing in anticipation. The Kodlix is awesome value at £150 (but I notice is no longer available on Amazon UK). But is perhaps suitable only for a 1k camera/display (given the 30hz limit on UHD) and the modest processor may stutter if the data demand are high. My data hungry Atik Horizon (£1200/16 megapixel) saves 48mb image files, but that is little different to my four year old 24 megapixel DSLR that cost me merely £200 used (but still in mint condition). Now consider how wireless bandwith has jumped from 28kb/s and data storage standards have reached terabytes in barely a decade, whilst display has had a journey from 720p to 1080p to 4K UHD to 8k. The astro camera market is patently lagging behind in the wider adoption of more affordable CMOS, I hence feel my warning to not underestimate future computing & display & power requirements is relevant to all audiences, not just current high end purchasers.
  11. noah4x4

    Remotely Controlling Imaging Queries

    Glad to assist Steve. I have been involved elsewhere in some cutting edge forum threads on this subject where a huge minefield of potential problems has been uncovered. It is really wise to get your basic AP (or EAA) set up running before attempting remote control of any type. It's then easier to reach your goals. Here are two more thoughts.... People have succeeded with very basic systems using Raspberry Pi (which has inferior 802.11n WiFi and no USB3). However, for example, Atik's dedicated wireless software for the Pi (Atik Air) will choke on the Atik Horizons data demands. Of course, if you buy a lesser camera, that worry might appear irrelevant, that is until Christmas 2019 when CMOS cameras are half the price (we can hope) and you want to upgrade again. A degree of future proofing components is no bad idea. One thing I did think odd about the Kodlix mini-computer that you mentioned was that it claimed to have 'HD' graphics then rather remarkably claims an upper 4096 x 2016 pixel resolution (which is 4k UHD) at 30hz, yet the price is merely £150. I am not an expert, but am concerned that 30hz is a incredibly slow refresh rate and £150 does seem too low for 4K. If you don't want to suffer lag and stutter a capability of achieving 4k UHD at 60hz is much better. If limited to a regular lower resolution (1k) CCD camera you might be OK with this mini-computer. But it illustrates how easily you can stumble over manufacturers claims if you buy a more demanding camera. Begs the question, what resolution is your DSLR? I bet it's over 6 megapixel? By trying things out first with your existing laptop and comparing its graphics and refresh rates you can better assess stuff like this. Frankly, you don't need 4K UHD for AP, but if it's in your budget range it's well worth it (IMHO) for EAA, even if merely future proofing. Also check what graphics capability your i7 laptop has? It might even be the one to make the 'Host'!
  12. noah4x4

    Remotely Controlling Imaging Queries

    Hi Steve, I think the specification is probably fine for what you initially want to do. But I have a sensible practical suggestion to help you test this assumption.... My suggestion is start by using your existing laptop at the scope simply to get everything ELSE working. Then (later) buy the mini-computer and swap that into its place and get that fully operative. Then progress to cabled (or wireless) remote connections between the two computers as the LAST step. The first reason that I say this is that I rather too ambitiously started the other way round and prematurely attempting wireless connectivity confused and disguised a gazillion other problems like USB3, USB2 and Serial to USB device conflicts and power problems. But if you can get the camera and other devices set up fully operative (which you can do indoors) with your existing laptop then you are ready to progress unhindered by any unresolved other problems. If you don't run into any brick walls with the basic set up (like lack of battery or processor power) with merely your existing laptop you can then be more confident that the mini-computer will be fine. But if you do have problems with the existing laptop, you then know that you might need a higher specification mini-computer. I have an Atik Horizon camera which itself demands 2 Amps and I had also bought a i5 NUC that demands a full 12 volts and 50 watts at peak. A pal with an identical camera has merely an i3 NUC. It demands less power, but it hasn't got equivalent graphics handling, and he ran into problems with its lesser WiFi capability and wishes that he had gone one notch higher. So don't risk underestimating battery, computing, WiFi or cable power. By making gentle progress as I have suggested you can eliminate unforeseen problems before they become too costly. Next step once the basics are working, is remote cintrol. I recommend getting the two computers connected by Cat 6 cable given that 20M is quite long for 'active' USB . Such cable is cheap and is your fall back (especially for testing). Don't underestimate the challenges with USB and hubs! Attempt wireless remote control LAST. Wireless might be the ultimate goal, but in my experience it can be a bucket load of trouble if any other stuff is still flaky. I succeeded by putting together ever higher specification kit (like upgrading my laptop from 802.11n to full 5G 802.11ac wireless), but I still suffered nuisance problems with lag and drop outs. I got so fed up with having to reboot locked up computers I even invested in a 7" mini-monitor for my NUC so I could diagnose stuff at both ends (remember the computer at the scope is 'headless' with no display). I also ended up with a seperate wireless mouse and keyboard for the NUC (which shouldn't be necessary if TeamViewer or RDP is working OK). It was at this point I noticed the distinct quality difference between the display output on my 720p mini-monitor at the scope and the 1080p laptop indoors - pretty obvious really, but who considers display when buying an astro camera? It then dawned on me that I had a 4k camera and a 4k NUC that was being degraded over wireless and finally hitting a mere 1080p HD display (which is still good). This doesn't matter with AP as all processing is done on the more powerful NUC, but if you aspire to enjoying the best 'near live' EAA view indoors I realised what I had previously been doing was imperfect. I then deleted the inferior laptop, brought my NUC indoors (using cable) and directly connected it by Thunderbolt display cable to a 4K UHD monitor. Awesome! Overkill possibly yes, expensive yes, but if buying other high end components, surely one wants to ultimately match them with a high end display? Not suggesting anybody follow my perhaps extravagant and indulgent path, just learn from the limitations I discovered. So start simple and build. If you go straight to remote control (cable or wireless), another issue WILL bite you.
  13. noah4x4

    Remotely Controlling Imaging Queries

    Intel NUCs do run on between 12v to 19v (+ or - 10%) but are a bit fickle at the lower end and ideally need a consistent 12v. If merely 11.7v the more powerful ones can struggle at peak load. Hugh, you are also right, most laptops are 19v or 20v. This makes the MaxOak 50000 mAh power bank such a good buy due to its low cost, high watt hours and great versatility. It can run a depleted laptop in the field at 20v or a NUC at 20v or telescope/camera at 12v and keep going for eight hours. However, I don't think it wise to attempt using its 20v and 12v ports simultaneously. Sorry, I thought I had made it clear that my 4K UHD set up was primarily used for EAA where the primary objective is the best possible on screen 'near live' view. For AP you don't need the same display quality (albeit desirable). However, given that Sony and Samsung have already launched retail 8k display (TV) technologies I reckon that it won't be long before 4K UHD will become the computer display standard (rather than 1k 1080p HD). Consider DSLR or even phone camera technologies where at least 9 megapixel have now become routine. Why are computer screens and most astro cameras so laggard? CMOS now makes large sensor high resolution astro cameras affordable. The debate as regards AP is very different as post processing is used to enhance images. But with EAA you do want the best on screen display and in my experience wireless isn't the best or easiest route except where it is not practical to use cable.
  14. noah4x4

    Remotely Controlling Imaging Queries

    This might be true of earlier versions. But I was recently told by TeamViewer Support that in the latest downloaded version that today this is only possible using the paid for commercial version. It was also flaky and unreliable over the Internet, so to get peer to peer I switched to Remote Desktop, which was also free in Windows 8, but now you need Windows 10 Pro, so cost applies there. I suggest that if your rig is using an older version of TeamViewer you don't ever upgrade and potentially lose this functionality. However, this isn't relevant to my main point. For AP it isn't material. However, the wireless route does degrade the (indoors) on-screen view so for EAA cable is typically better, assuming that your camera is large sensor high resolution. EDIT - more information. Just realised why TeamViewer might now require the latest free download to run over the Internet. If it permitted peer to peer, how could they check and prevent commercial use? Best suggestion is don't upgrade if you have it working using an older version else risk losing this functionality.
  15. noah4x4

    Remotely Controlling Imaging Queries

    12 volt is fine if your power supply consistently outputs a full 12v and your mini computer isn't too demanding. The quoted voltage range of my Intel NUC i5 with Iris Plus 640 Graphics is "12v to 19v +/- 10%". What I found was that it sometimes spluttered when using my Tracer 8Ah or MaxOak K2 at 12v because it requires over 40 watts at peak and these degraded to around 11.7 volts after a comparatively short period of use. You need a truly dependable 12v source, especially if adding camera, focusser etc to its demands. More successful was using my MaxOak at 20v and reserving 12v for other devices. That actually measured 19.3v, so it is clear manufacturers boast optimum outputs not averages! Frankly, I had so many other problems with power, hubs and wireless, I eventually brought my NUC indoors, ran 'active' USB3 to it from camera then Thunderbolt cable to 4K UHD monitor. At last, 100% reliability as I could use a mains electricity adapter, and still wirelessly control my scope using Celestron WiFi and MKIT20-WL wireless focusser. In summary, the WiFi routes are fine in most situations, but we are ever closer to position where the latest cameras and computers are demanding more power and better connectivity and hence more preparation is necessary.

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