Please read then read again before you advise

[bomberbaz]

Sorry I have to make this point as, after reading quite a few threads on here seeing people seemingly reading what they want to see and advising on it as they see fit.

Very often some people seem to jump the gun and say what we like/use and not what an OP is asking about. 

I will stereotype this with the request often made by a beginner asking for advice on first scope and a response thrown out all to often is, get some bins. I am not trying to say this is bad advice and not that this shouldn't be given, but don't just stick it in your top drawer and pull it out as soon as you see, newbie first scope advice.

I could go on as I have seen a few of these recently but all I will say is take account of what people want, well meaning advice does not always mean good advice.

Steve

[Charic]

So you're not getting on with your Lidl Bins, there are better ones! Or did I not read the question?

You're right Steve, sometimes we only read what we want to see? But Often we want want to tell it as it really is.  I  see some folk arriving with their  telescope  of choice, " is this a good telescope, they ask"..........too late is often the  immediate thought, and some telescopes are a  total waste of money, but you now  need to help them  get the best from something that is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard in its operation, instead of them maybe asking first then buying. The urge to buy often outweighs any  advice beforehand

I did it this week. Someone wants a Telescope for their Son. I recommended binoculars as a first choice, then build on some user experience at a club or friends house until the right telescope comes along? 

At the end of the day, whatever the advice or guidance we offer,  thats all it is, just advice, and for some lucky folk, maybe some Years of practical experience. 

[jonathan]

What's wrong with binoculars?  I had binoculars for about a year before I bought a telescope, had a lot of enjoyment out of them, could have done a lot worse.

[happy-kat]

Is it not also read the detail of the post and don't skip the bits around it like budget, health or location or any other snippet.

[jambouk]

It's all about balance I suspect.

I guess many people who sign up to SGL don't even know what the options are and just assume the only option for observing the night sky is with a telescope.

Yes, if the question says "I don't want binoculars, what telescope should I get?" then that is different from "I've just decided I am interested in astronomy, what telescope should I get?"

I've made the mistake of misreading peoples original posts, or misinterpreting their question(s). But I suspect most people who reply on here are just trying to help, and it's all good to learn from, and generally all gets balanced out by someone else disagreeing and suggesting something else.

James

[RichM63]

Sometimes when trying to be tactful and avoiding an insult related to budget, and yet wanting someone to obtain the best possible experience it is almost impossible not to think about binoculars.

The "I have a fixed £100 to spend, what telescope should I buy?" where the response is "don't bother" is not likely to be well received by anyone and is hardly encouraging to the budding astronomer.

A worse than useless telescope, or a decent pair of 15x70 Celestons, I know which I would prefer, especially when I have had to save for a couple of years to get there. (as was the case, although I started the quest over on a US forum before I found SGL).

No one strives to give bad advice, and most will post from personal experience to try to give the reader the best possible options. (although a lot of the time it will be too late)

[Zakalwe]

Its a good point, and well made

Sorry I have to make this point as, after reading quite a few threads on here seeing people seemingly reading what they want to see and advising on it as they see fit.

Very often some people seem to jump the gun and say what we like/use and not what an OP is asking about. 

I will stereotype this with the request often made by a beginner asking for advice on first scope and a response thrown out all to often is, get some bins. I am not trying to say this is bad advice and not that this shouldn't be given, but don't just stick it in your top drawer and pull it out as soon as you see, newbie first scope advice.

I could go on as I have seen a few of these recently but all I will say is take account of what people want, well meaning advice does not always mean good advice.

Steve

it's a good point and well made.

I think that there's also an onus on the person asking the question to do at least some research. How many times has a variant of "I want to get into astrophotography, what the best telescope/camera" been asked? All with generally the same answer of "Buy making Every Photon Count". A simple search by the questioner would save a lot of repetitive threads.

[wuthton]

Sorry I have to make this point as, after reading quite a few threads on here seeing people seemingly reading what they want to see and advising on it as they see fit.

Steve

I think I know which thread has prompted you to write this. The first two posters had clearly not read the question and the advice offered wasn't even close to being relevant.

I'm sure most of us have misread/misinterpreted questions but you should at least read a question fully before offering advice.

[bomberbaz]

Is it not also read the detail of the post and don't skip the bits around it like budget, health or location or any other snippet.

Exactly my point, don't read what you want to read. 

Sometimes when trying to be tactful and avoiding an insult related to budget, and yet wanting someone to obtain the best possible experience it is almost impossible not to think about binoculars.

The "I have a fixed £100 to spend, what telescope should I buy?" where the response is "don't bother" is not likely to be well received by anyone and is hardly encouraging to the budding astronomer.

A worse than useless telescope, or a decent pair of 15x70 Celestons, I know which I would prefer, especially when I have had to save for a couple of years to get there. (as was the case, although I started the quest over on a US forum before I found SGL).

No one strives to give bad advice, and most will post from personal experience to try to give the reader the best possible options. (although a lot of the time it will be too late)

Nothing wrong with bins as obviously I have them, actually I have 4 sets, or is it 5  , and there is nothing wrong with any advice given but we should try to give it on known facts imo, not second guessing what an OP means. If there is ambiguity then ask a question.

And very sorry if I sound like a preacher, its just I feel like sometimes things need saying 

ps, love you all 

[ronin]

I agree that people will often throw in their view, which may or may not match what the OP asked. Unfortunately what then appears to happen is the subsequent posts are along the same line. Seems that once diverted then it is OK.

Binoculars are likely more specialist then a scope, they also are different, to me they perform a different function. So staying away from them when a person asks which budget scope is simply polite and sensible. Will say there is a bit of a lack of inexpensive semi-reasonable achro scopes.

Perhaps when someone asks they incorporate too many aspects, so people pick up on the "easiest" bit.  Saw that recently. Will throw in that many years ago I read that to ask a question accurately then you need to know 90% of the answer already. Means that the "What scope?" is not really meaningful.

Many here simply suggest what they have, I cannot in some ways as what I have is simply not available - to say go get a Megrez-90 because it covers a lot of aspects of astronomy is fine. They are just rarer the hens teeth and rocking horse manure.

It would seem better to suggest options, and suggest why, rather then just say "Buy scope X",

Always let the buyer decide, also I suspect many are drawn to whatever scope they asked about for a reason, even if unknown.

Often a question covers a scope and an aspect of astronomy: Usually an Alt/Az mount and DSO Astrophotography. Then it becomes more difficult. Especially when someone post they have lurked on SGL and after research they have selected a 127 Mak on and Alt/Az mount for DSO imaging.

[scarp15]

I think that the point is worth while addressing, though I am not personally aware of the particular threads. Clearly in the beginners section, full consideration needs to be applied concerning responses. Speaking upon a thread I started recently and in general, I think that most people respond with integrity and overall contributions to questions are both positive and thought provoking, whether read by a beginner or someone more established. Speaking concerning binoculars, I am on my third pair and yep from the formation of my own developing interest, I was encouraged in invest in binoculars, but along with a scope, they are the backbone to my continual evolving interest in visual astronomy.  

[Polar Bear]

I think there is also a great difference in a complete novice asking should I buy scope A or B and being answered with 'have you considered scope C for the following reasons' and an experienced imager asking the pros and cons of camera A or B. Surely part of asking for advice is to throw open a conservation on the subject? otherwise most posts would be a simple yes / no response and pretty boring and uninteresting.

[jambouk]

Yes

[bomberbaz]

Ronin you hit the nail squarely on the head there re: people following on from the last post made rather than the OP/thread in general. All to often we go off in tangents that bear little if any semblance to what the original topic was about. Now sometimes this is quite humorous and leads to some fun banter in some threads where this is part and parcel of life, but to an OP asking a serious questions, this can lead to confusion and I daresay some irritation.

Damn this soap box is getting heavy now so I think i will leave it here, I believe my point has been made.

Steve

[Alkaid]

Totally agree Ronin.

I think bins are a wonderful complement to a telescope.  They are certainly no substitute for one.

[Moonshane]

I think part of the issue is that people want to :

• help
• impart their own experiences
• save the OP money in the long run
• reduce the amount of time they spend reading threads
• ensure that the sandwich filling is what the customer asked for
• sorry Steve , what was the point again LOL

The difficulty is, I feel, that if people say what they should really say (buy good quality gear as it is cheaper in the long run), this might scare off a few new astronomers who may think it is only for the rich few. It clearly isn't but sometimes it is difficult to appropriately manage people's expectations of what kit can achieve.

[bomberbaz]

I think part of the issue is that people want to :

• help
• impart their own experiences
• save the OP money in the long run
• reduce the amount of time they spend reading threads
• ensure that the sandwich filling is what the customer asked for
• sorry Steve , what was the point again LOL

The difficulty is, I feel, that if people say what they should really say (buy good quality gear as it is cheaper in the long run), this might scare off a few new astronomers who may think it is only for the rich few. It clearly isn't but sometimes it is difficult to appropriately manage people's expectations of what kit can achieve.

Very well put shane old son, and I wholeheartedly agree/encourage this train of thought, just throw in a little more thought when doing this and jobs a goodun.

God know how much money I would have saved if I just bought TV and other high end EP's from the off but hey, that's life hahaha 

[Macavity]

Is it not also read the detail of the post and don't skip the bits around it like budget, health or location or any other snippet.

True Dat - For me, such details are just as important as the "Physics" and / or "Technology".

In the UK, we battle the elements... We get older... Physical (and financial) health matters.

To me, it's the Black & White thinking -- X is "good", so Y is "bad". Worse still, If you can only

afford Y, don't bother (with Astronomy). Thankfully, collective experience usually prevails?

Elsewhere (within known limitations!) Baader Hyperions "conquered" the Teleview  monopoly.

(Within known limitation) Maksutovs were accepted as potential "general purpose" scopes.

Adage, tradition and "repeated wisdom" have a place, but ultimately if one is actively endorsing

(condemning) something, it's a good thing to know fairly precisely WHY you are doing so...

On the "binocular thing", I was (generation-wise?) reared on "Patrick Moore". I knew of SPM's

"active endorsement" of binoculars versus small refractors. But I wanted to buy a telescope!

I think I still got quite a lot out of my "useless" 30x30 'frac. But I was ever the (child) rebel...

[happy-kat]

Will say there is a bit of a lack of inexpensive semi-reasonable achro scopes.

Though even an inexpensive sub £150.00 setup is going to show a lot more than the mk1 eye ball and give a reasonable wow factor on the Moon or even Jupiter and a wide FOV even if there is some CA (or alot). Maybe because some have observed for a long time and use fantastic equipment we forget that wow from early days of observing with moderate equipment that is at the start of the journey into this hobby. First purchases can always be sold on to fund the next step along.

[bingevader]

Not to get hung up on one particular aspect of the thread, but....!

Maybe the bins stereotype wasn't the best choice.

We grew up using bins because we couldn't afford a 'scope and they're far more versatile for use outside of astronomy.

Bins are a very viable alternative to a 'scope for someone with absolutely no experience or no idea what to buy their husband for Christmas!

In their position, I'd rather receive a pair of bins (or a voucher, or a trip to my local Astronomy Club, are they on the hated list too?!) than a 'scope I didn't want.

Yep, I can see why you might find people not properly reading posts annoying.

Sometimes the OP doesn't really know what they want.

Sometimes people misinterpret what is being asked.

Yep, maybe sometimes we all need to take a little longer to read through a wall of text rather than skimming.

But it's a huge bonus to have so many enthusiastic people eager to try to help.

We can only speak from our experience and suggest what we know works or is a reasonable alternative.

I actually think it's a positive aspect of the forum.

To use another stereotype, SGL would be a much poorer place if the only people to comment on eyepieces were the Green and Black brigade!

[Stu]

I think focusing on the binoculars comment is perhaps missing the wider point.

All advice given in good faith on the forum is of course welcome, and it is great to have a whole range of views from new starter to experienced.

I could be accused of being a member of the Black and Green brigade, but don't often recommend them as they are often not the best choice for someone starting out. I frequently suggest BST's or Vixen NPL's, not because I have used them but because they get great feedback in here and are a good step up from bundled eyepieces. I guess it's about giving advice that suits the poster rather than being based upon my own kit. I always try to say whether or not I have personal experience of something or whether I've compared it with other kit so there is some context.

We all get it wrong sometimes though, so it's a case of assuming good intentions from everyone who responds, and waiting for a number of responses so as to get as balanced a view as possible.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bomberbaz]

I think focusing on the binoculars comment is perhaps missing the wider point.

All advice given in good faith on the forum is of course welcome, and it is great to have a whole range of views from new starter to experienced.

I could be accused of being a member of the Black and Green brigade, but don't often recommend them as they are often not the best choice for someone starting out. I frequently suggest BST's or Vixen NPL's, not because I have used them but because they get great feedback in here and are a good step up from bundled eyepieces. I guess it's about giving advice that suits the poster rather than being based upon my own kit. I always try to say whether or not I have personal experience of something or whether I've compared it with other kit so there is some context.

We all get it wrong sometimes though, so it's a case of assuming good intentions from everyone who responds, and waiting for a number of responses so as to get as balanced a view as possible.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes as I said earlier I was picking on the bins bit as it seems to come up so often, nothing against bins like i said, I have 6 sets (I did a count) 

And i don't think i have ever told someone starting out to go n buy a delos or similar either 

[bingevader]

I think focusing on the binoculars comment is perhaps missing the wider point.

As is focussing on the G&B in my post.

But, whilst we're on it...

And i don't think i have ever told someone starting out to go n buy a delos or similar either 

You may not have, but others have along with comments about wasting our time and money buying anything else!

However, whilst those posts amuse me, I don't berate people for doing it.

You take the rough with the smooth.

And, (the point I was trying to make that got overlooked) delight in the wide and diverse experience that the forum brings to anyone who comes to ask for help.

Cloudy outside again?

[Stu]

As is focussing on the G&B in my post.

Don't think I did, just used it as a starting point for my reply, and also reinforced your comments that all views are welcomed and should be taken in good faith.

Ho hum.

Yep, cloudy again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[webboid]

Interesting post folks.

Having read all the posts carefully. I must agree that some times things do drift away from the op's question. I have noticed lately mods flagging thread at risk of being locked. I presume that mods read most if not all posts. So as to be considerate to an OP whose post has gone astray, where their question warrants further help, could a mod not politely add a reply noting that things have gone off topic. This may not be so regularly required as some times the OP gives little feed back or does not reply to request for further information.

I avidly read many posts, often find myself amused by the variety of contributions & regularly feel very fortunate to have folks prepared to offer their help, advice or opinion. I also sometimes contribute. Ultimately an OP may be better informed but the decision still is theirs to take. They can also ask further questions or use the search feature. 

Having been observing for only 30 months now, my opinion on equipment, leaning toward expensive accessories etc has changed considerably but I don't forget that when I started I knew nothing & trusted the views of my piers. Ultimately I made my own choices & some mistakes too. However, I love the hobby & intend to continue as long as I am able. I believe, sadly, many people dabble with the hobby & it is appropriate that those considerate enough to offer advice recognise that there are an awful lot of scopes in cupboards used once & forgotten about as the beginner did not realise that the hobby is a bit more than "what scope for..." Opinions are great but sound & realistic advice is priceless. So thanks to those who have recommend starting with bins. It was the best advice I could have been given.