Orion Optics UK VX 12" f4 Review

[nicoscy]

Orion Optics UK 12” f4 Solid Tube Dobsonian Telescope review

Recurring back problems and large telescopes are usually considered mutually exclusive. However a 12” dob is correctly called “the entry point to true deep sky observing” and I was looking for premium 12" Dob with quality optics and relative ease of setup- all without penalizing my back. Challenge accepted and met by Orion Optics UK. 

Structure and components:

The scope comes standard with 1/6 PV optics with Hi-Lux coatings (97% reflectivity both on primary and secondary mirrors), a 2” focuser with 10:1 reduction, a 10x50 straight finderscope, a 25mm eyepiece (only with the purchase of a mount to complement the OTA) and a primary mirror cooling fan. The only changes / extras requested was an upgrade of the optics to 1/10 PV Ultra Grade and the addition of the variable friction break on the mount.

Key information from the manufacturer’s site:

OTA weight with ring system

14 kg

30.86 lbs.

Dobsonian mount weight

12 kg

26.45 lbs.

Tube length

1,160 mm

45.66 in

Tube diameter

326 mm

12.43 in

Focal length

1,200 mm

47.24 in

Focal ratio

f4

f4

Primary mirror size

300 mm

11.81 in

Secondary mirror size (primary obstruction %)

75 mm (25%)

2.95 in (25%)

OTA:

The telescope is really lightweight, easily meeting my requirements regarding weight and ease of both transporting it and setting it up. Essentially I lift the OTA from its rings, slide it on the back seat of my Honda CRV and put the mount in the back. At 31 lbs for a complete 12” OTA, it is very lightweight. The mount is also very light at 27 lbs and easy to grip and move around.

Mount:

The mount is a lightweight, elegant and simple design, yet rock solid. Movements are smooth and the friction break helps with different weight eyepieces and general stability of scope in altitude. One has to be careful of course not to make any *really* sudden turns in azimuth when the telescope is pointed near zenith as this can tilt the mount. This is perfectly normal as the centre of the weight of the system rests well above the ground and laws of physics pertaining to leverage still apply. 

I do admit that truss dobs balance better as the mirror is situated just above the ground Vs. quite a few inches up for a solid tube dob assembly, but this is an acceptable compromise for the ease of use of a solid tube system and is not a deficiency of this scope, but rather the mechanics related to solid tube dobs.

Focuser:

The focuser is a very large and very solid rack and pinion assembly – actually the largest unit I have ever seen or used. This is the new focuser that Orion Optics started fitting its scopes with in mid-2013. Baader has stopped marketing and selling the Steeltrack focuser and this model appears to be a rebranded Steeeltrack - the quality being impeccable.

In use, it has no issues of flexure/sag whatsoever and has been tested with 21mm Ethos + Paracorr T II (my heaviest combination). I especially appreciate the oversized knobs which make using the focuser with gloves very easy and also the clear feedback in use.

I have had - and tested - both FeatherTouch and Moonlite focusers. This focuser in my opinion has a distinct advantage over the others in that it provides superior "feel". Especially easy to operate with your gloves on. In fact, I liked it so much, I fitted it to my SkyWatcher 120mm f5 Wide-Field refractor. The focuser actually cost more than the refractor telescope and speaks volumes about how I feel about this focuser! 

Optics quality:

I could discuss the components of the Zygo report as far as I understand them, but I will refrain from that as this is a review of the whole “package”, not just the mirrors. I am very happy with the bench test results provided, but “the proof of the pudding is in the eating” as a wise man once said. I would also appreciate it if this does not turn into a "let's discuss the mirror" thread once this review is published.

Testing of optics, first light report and comments on the use of the scope:

•  
• The telescope is always used with a Televue Paracorr Type II in place, giving a focal length of 1,380mm at f4.6. I use the Televue Nagler 31mm and Ethos 21mm / 13mm and 8mm and Astronomiks UHC / O III and  Hβ filters. First light was the day after Christmas 2013 and since then I have been out with the scope many times in order to get a good feel and write a more or less unbiased review.
• I admit to being biased in the end, despite some *small* issues on receipt of the scope (described later on). I could wax lyrically for hours about the objects and views I get through this scopee, but I would rather be clinical about it and bottom-line the key benefits of this scope arising from some targets - and here I will avoid discussing any obscure targets- that we all know and love:
• Best ever views of the entire Orion Nebula complex at nearly 1.8 degrees TFOV and nearly 7mm exit pupil. I now prefer the wide field view afforded by a fast dob. Context and framing are really important to me along with maximum light hitting my retina. With this configuration, I do not have to sacrifice the wide field views that I like.
• The Double Cluster provided views truly reminiscent of refractor views, i.e. pinpoint stars sparkling like tiny jewels against a dark backdrop. Using a Paracorr "penalizes" you with a 15% reduction in FOV but you are fully rewarded by viewing corrected views that are coma free and refractor like. You like fast scopes? You will love the Paracorr with quality wide field eyepieces!
• Jupiter and Saturn at 294x (I used a Nagler 4.8mm Type 1 for this) on a steady evening are a sight for sore eyes. I am not a planetary observer, but now I will invest sometime on the planets as opposed to a minute or two in the past.

What I liked:

The mirrors perform as expected of a high end optical system, providing the rewarding views I was hungry for. The optical system provides a dark background to any target - a strong indication of well-polished smooth mirrors. Images are sharp with extremely high contrast, something that I did not expect to find outside the world of refractors, yet I was proven wrong. Not only that, but I get the wide field views to go with the aperture.

The scope can pull in faint fuzzies with ease and I won’t bore you with details of my subsequent observing sessions Further remarks below:

• I did not find it any harder to obtain perfect collimation in a fast f4 Dob than my previous f5.3 and f6 systems. Using high quality collimation tools certainly helps (Howie Glatter Laser and Tublug, plus a Cheshire eyepiece) and I strongly recommend this combination for quick and accurate collimation.
• Being in a seated position makes observing more comfortable, courtesy of f4 ratio yielding a short tube. This makes extended observing easier and keeps exhaustion from creeping up as easily as when you observe either standing or on a ladder.
• The scope is extremely easy to set up. Put the mount down, place the OTA on the mount, let the scope cool, collimate and observe. It takes all of 5-6 minutes from the moment I park my car to get to a scope that is fully set up including the fan running and finderscope and Telrad attached. About 15 minutes of running the fan are enough to produce "respectable" images through the eyepiece (I generally enjoy low powered views during cool down period). Another 30 minutes, a quick collimation check and images are textbook perfect.
• This is as ideal of a scope for the amateur astronomer who wants to have an easy setup as it gets. Since I live in a severely light polluted city, it is critical for me to avoid too much hassle with my gear when I am packing up or setting up.
• Do take note that the Hilux coatings with both primary and secondary reflectivity at 97% have a light falloff of 6% Vs 11% - 15% for normal coated mirrors. That actually gives you a slightly better performance and acts like a mild aperture boost due to more light reaching your eye.

What could be improved:

There are of course some minor issues that I had to deal with, which in the interests of full disclosure are listed below:

Shipping and delivery:

The scope was quoted as being ready for shipment 4 weeks after down payment but actual shipping was 7 weeks. Not an unreasonable delay but a delay nonetheless. John and Barry could improve on their communication a bit when it comes to any changes on promised delivery time. Something which I hope they will improve on. Their business is picking up -which is always a great thing - but with increased business there is always the risk of losing touch with the individual clients who place direct orders as opposed to going through a dealer.  

Manual:

The manual for setting up the telescope was a printed black and white job of fair quality. It missed some important instructions, namely how to mount the primary mirror assembly. Turns out that up to 10”, the scope is shipped with the primary mirror assembly in place. 12” and up, the mirror comes in separate packaging, hence fitting is not included in the standard manual. John was kind enough to immediately email me the relevant instructions as soon as I called. It would have been nice if a decent manual was included, printed in a nice booklet as for the price of the scope, this is a reasonable expectation. The fact that I did not have the appropriate manual delayed the placement of the primary mirror assembly by a week as I did not want to fool around by myself.

OTA:

OTA was full of paint specks from the matte anti-reflective paint and needed a quick wash and scrub inside, which should have been handled by the manufacturer prior to shipment. 

I also had a secondary anti-dew heater and controller drop- shipped directly to Orion Optics from Jim Kendrick as Orion Optics told me that they would do a nice fitting prior to sending the OTA to me.The fitting was not up to par and the sticker lining holding the wires had come off. I removed the cables and if necessary will mount the wires on the outside of the OTA with white electrician’s tape.

There was also a small scratch on the tube next to the focuser. Small, but still there, showing that although packing was superb, someone was careless for a split second and that was enough to leave a permanent mark on the OTA.

The OTA comes supplied with 2 plastic end caps which however do not fit very well. I ordered Astrozap dust covers as the plastic ones are not up to par. I would have replaced them anyway with the specific dust covers I ordered, so no big deal.

Oddly enough, there wasn’t a cap for the 2” to 1.25” adapter, leaving the secondary mirror exposed. Like most of us, I maintain a healthy inventory of stuff that appears to be useless but is often needed - 1.25” caps being part of said inventory.

The finderscope shoe unfortunately was (a) screwed the other way round on the mount and ( located quite far from both the Telrad and focuser. I had to have new holes drilled to the OTA to situate the shoe at a more appropriate position and covered the remaining holes with white electrician’s tape.

Included eyepiece:

If you buy the scope and mount combo, you also get a free 25mm 52 degrees AFOV generic eyepiece. Investing so much money in a premium telescope means that you probably have an arsenal of high pedigree eyepieces to deploy for this telescope.  The eyepiece does not add anything to the overall package and does not “complete” the scope in any way as it is a no-no for the scope.  Still, I can understand the rationale of including “something” as some people may expect this extra and it is a nice perk. Use it in a scope which is much slower (e.g. a Mak or SCT) and it is a surprisingly good performer.

Conclusion:

I understand that I have listed a lot of small issues with the scope. I did this to ensure that the review was fully inclusive and not reflecting solely on the plusses of the telescope.

In the end, all these small issues were fully resolved and I am a proud owner of a fine 12" telescope which met my selection criteria 100%. I am very happy with the choice of aperture, f ratio and selection of solid tube Vs truss, but more importantly with the brand name I chose.

I discussed all these issues with John Pemberton of Orion Optics UK and I am pleased to note that they take their customers' comments seriously. I am so pleased with my Dob that I am now waiting for delivery of a 140mm Rumak - Maksutov telescope and I have complete faith that my second scope from Orion Optics UK will fulfil its role as a lightweight planetary scope for both visual and imaging use. Unfortunately this scope is delayed as well, but again I communicated with John and Barry and end of next week scope #21 (I have rehomed all the others like a good daddy and only kept the ones in my sig) will be shipped to me. Talk about addiction to trying astronomy gear...

To summarise, mirrors of the highest quality and performance, strong ergonomics, a fantastic focuser and super light OTA are the key benefits of this telescope.

Orion Optics UK came through for me and Sir Pat (in fond memory of Sir Patrick Caldwell Moore) will be my companion under dark skies for many years to come. 

Notes:

-        This review reflects my personal views on the equipment mentioned. YMMV.

-        I have no relationship with the companies / individuals mentioned in this review other than having purchased their products at commercial prices.

[John]

What an excellent, open and balanced report Nicos, thanks very much for compiling and posting it

My Orion Optics dob is the F/5.3 version but otherwise similar and I'm similarly very pleased with it, especially the optics. My scope was bought used and the mount made by an SGL colleague so I've not had to deal direct with OO.

I agree entirely with you on the ease of setup. My 12" dob gets out far more than my smaller aperture refractors now. They are light too, for 12" scopes. I think the 12" OO is around the same weight as a 10" Skywatcher or GSO dobsonian.

Hope your 140 MCT pleases just as much and that you have many happy nights with both over the coming years

[nicoscy]

Hi John,

Thanks for the kind words 

In terms of weight you are absolutely right. I got a 12" that weights like a 10". Truly an exceptional set of mirrors and a great overall assembly.

The little issues I had with the scope are truly non-issues in the end. All was forgotten once I saw the Horsehead at my first foray with this scope. But I had to state them so that I would present an unbiased review and not be blinded by the fact that it is my own scope...

[John]

Lucky you on seeing the Horsehead first time out - I've yet to nail that one with my OO but I'm hoping to this Winter

It was glimpsed by some SGL members at one of the SGL star parties but that was with a 16" scope.

[nicoscy]

It helps that we have good dark skies over here and a temperate climate. 

Spotted with direct vision as well straight away. It helps that I knew what I was looking for as I had seen it a few times already from a friend's 18" dob and I knew what I would see, the image scale and the orientation.

[alan potts]

Nicos,

I can see I am going to have to up my game when It comes to writing reviews, I can't enlarge on what John has said above other than to say no one would know that English is not your first language, very well done.

On the scratched tube, that would have really got to me, I have a LX 12 inch which has been in and out of apartments, cars, a barns a basement and now the observatory and that have not got a scratch anywhere, just seems that some are more careful than others. Small though it may be , it is not good enough.

Just before I left England last time I bought a Mammut OSC camera, which I have never used. This was not a massive amount at 399 pounds but when I got it it had been knocked, small but htere none the less. This was in my opinion played down by the seller and by this time I was back in Bulgaria as it arrived the morning I was flying. This instantly reduced the secondhand value and was in my view not good enough, he claimed he didn't see it which to me means he didn't check. Nicos there is too much of this going on, do we short change them when we pay for a product, no, we don't pay we don't get.

Sorry for rambling on excellent piece of work and now you have me thinking as to which 12 inch to buy.

Alan.

[nicoscy]

Alan,

Thank you as well for the kind words!!!

The scratch is really small and did not reach the aluminium body below the paint. Besides, with repeated use, scratches on any OTA occur and I did not buy the scope to keep it in storage in pristine condition.

The f5.3 is about 35 centimeters longer than the f4 which would probably have caused problems when trying to fit it on he back seats of my CRV. Also the FOV is a bit narrower altough you still get 1.5 degrees with a Nagler 31.

However at f5.3 a Paracorr is a luxury, not a necessity (although I would strongly recommend one. It's only when you use it that you discover what it can do) and of course the mirror sweet spot is enlarged and collimation easier to hold.

Pick your poison as they say but whatever the choice, you can be certain that the views will be sensational.

I will also post a nice spreadsheet I use to calculate FOV / Magnification / Exit pupil e.t.c. in the eyepieces forum later today and tomorrow... It is a mix of Don Pensack's Excel sheet with a few additions and enhancements (credit must be given where due). 

[scarp15]

Comprehensive and thorough review that will be a good reference for others considering a similar set up. The ease of set up is something I to appreciate as I also live in a light polluted city though I can reach very good dark sky locations in a reasonable short duration by car. The short time scale required to set up and dismantle, is something I also value since when I know that it is time to go home a prompt exit is appreciated.  I happen to have a baader steeltrack fitted to mine and as you state your dexterity when wearing gloves is not compromised with the easy yet smooth to operate focuser controls. Concerning the small internal scratch, are you considering flocking around the focuser, I have partially flocked mine. Just to concur that the balance on the mount and when complemented by the friction brake works very well between weight variation changes at the focuser.

I notice also that you have replaced the straight through for a right angle finder, what model / size did you go for? I had underused my straight finder (8x50), as I use my telrad for most star hopping, however I will be adding a right angle finder (OOUK 8x50) as I sometimes get a little frustrated when searching for low lying targets where there is a little more murk and so less prominent stars visible. On a smaller scope I think that the straight through though would be fine being a little more ergonomic. I used my scope for a year before I finally decided to give a paracorr a try, it was certainly fine before though the coma corrector does clean things up a little, something I notice in particular with my 26mm nagler, combined with the superb contrast produced by the mirrors, the views are exquisite.

Just to add another aspect I really like is that the collimation is very dependable, withstanding journeys very well.

[jetstream]

Excellent report Nicos. My VX10 has been a very good scope too and OOUK got it to the middle of Canada from UK unscathed  I found them polite to deal with and they answer all my questions same day.

Congrats for seeing the HH!

[John]

.....However at f5.3 a Paracorr is a luxury, not a necessity (although I would strongly recommend one. It's only when you use it that you discover what it can do) and of course the mirror sweet spot is enlarged and collimation easier to hold......

I don't feel the need for a coma corrector with mine. Even with my 100 degree eyepieces. I can just see a touch of coma right out by the field stop in the 21mm Ethos but it's not in any way intrusive - you have to really look for it.

OO use aluminum for their tubes which keeps the scopes light but it does tend to dent / mark more easily than the steel ones. Mines got a few marks on it but it's 8 years old. It only cost me £250 though so I'm not complaining. I think OO want something over £1,300 for a tube to the same spec now

[scarp15]

Yes the tube is light so some minor dents may become inevitable over time, handling my VX14 is certainly the case. Since a shroud is not needed though it does helps at preventing potential body thermals reacting with the mirror (though of course warm clothing layers will trap much of this). In terms of thermal management I also run my fan for approx 20 minutes or so whilst setting everything else up, I think the fan socket has been modified on mine, the former owner had re-fitted it so that it plugs into the outer upper part of tube above the primary (though this might be standard?) it works well enough anyhow. I always set the mount up on a mat, partly because sometimes the surface, depending on where I head to, is a bit stony and also helps to keep moisture at bay. As I mentioned, my F4.6 is border line concerning whether to employ a coma corrector or not, so I held back for a year, I appreciate it now that I have one though, I have also started to use a mid and high power ultra wide field e.p, so perhaps a little more critical. 

[nicoscy]

Comprehensive and thorough review that will be a good reference for others considering a similar set up. The ease of set up is something I to appreciate as I also live in a light polluted city though I can reach very good dark sky locations in a reasonable short duration by car. The short time scale required to set up and dismantle, is something I also value since when I know that it is time to go home a prompt exit is appreciated.  I happen to have a baader steeltrack fitted to mine and as you state your dexterity when wearing gloves is not compromised with the easy yet smooth to operate focuser controls. Concerning the small internal scratch, are you considering flocking around the focuser, I have partially flocked mine. Just to concur that the balance on the mount and when complemented by the friction brake works very well between weight variation changes at the focuser.

I notice also that you have replaced the straight through for a right angle finder, what model / size did you go for? I had underused my straight finder (8x50), as I use my telrad for most star hopping, however I will be adding a right angle finder (OOUK 8x50) as I sometimes get a little frustrated when searching for low lying targets where there is a little more murk and so less prominent stars visible. On a smaller scope I think that the straight through though would be fine being a little more ergonomic. I used my scope for a year before I finally decided to give a paracorr a try, it was certainly fine before though the coma corrector does clean things up a little, something I notice in particular with my 26mm nagler, combined with the superb contrast produced by the mirrors, the views are exquisite.

Just to add another aspect I really like is that the collimation is very dependable, withstanding journeys very well.

Hi Iain,

The scratch is on the OTA about 2 inches from the focuser. No big deal really.

As for the finderscope, I replaced the standard one that comes with OO scopes (straight through) with a RACI, a standard Skywatcher model. I am not a contortionist so I generally avoid straight finders. Mine is a 9x50 model but doesn't get much use as the 1.7 degrees TFOV with the Nagler 31 and my Telrad get me there most of the time. I think a straight through is nice to have when the scope is relatively high and you can peek easily from the finderscope, e.g. like a long sold CPC 800 I had.

As for the coma corrector, an expensive but nice piece of kit, especially if you hang with reflectors that are sub f5...

[nicoscy]

Iain,

Forgot to mention. Since I use a Paracorr there is no need to flock the focuser as the Paracorr covers the entire area inside the focuser drawtube. 

Never thought that this would end up being a plus with a paracorr but you are right, generally focuser tubes do need the extra flocking...

As for the tube, it is not just the material but if you notice, the diameter of the tube is less than other comparable scopes by an inch, which saves on material weight. The drawback of this is that there is only half an inch spare space between the mirror and the OTA so tube currents could be an issue (again for those that live in cold climates, this could be an issue with mirror cooling...

[nicoscy]

John,

You really need to try a paracorr (or not - blumming expensive piece of hunka-hunka glass). At f4.6 you will benefit from it. It basically makes a fast reflector behave like a refractor in terms of views.

Coma, even if it becomes obtrusive only in the edge of the FOV, is still there to a minor extend which once controlled through a paracorr, the views show improvement.

[nicoscy]

Hi Gerry,

As I said, the damage is negligible and I do acknowledge that the scope was sent with a courier service which probably played the "let's toss the heavy box around a bit for fun" game.

Yes, John and Barry are quite nice people to talk to and readily available. No issues with managing to find them and chat with them. It's the delays in delivering that I note and I currently have the same issue with my OO 140mm Mak which should have been shipped a while ago but got pushed back like 3 times.

However, when you order a telescope that is not in stock and is figured on order, patience is a must. I would rather get quality and wait for it a bit longer.

As for the Horsehead, well, with very good seeing here and SQM readings above 21 plus excellent optics and eyepieces, it is a challenging but not an extremely difficult target.

[bingevader]

A great review and of a 'scope I've gone back to look at on more than a few occasions from an "if only" or "maybe when I retire" point of view.

Although there are so many variables, not least your location (Lucky thing), some more notes on your observations would be greatly appreciated.

[John]

John,

You really need to try a paracorr (or not - blumming expensive piece of hunka-hunka glass). At f4.6 you will benefit from it. It basically makes a fast reflector behave like a refractor in terms of views.

Coma, even if it becomes obtrusive only in the edge of the FOV, is still there to a minor extend which once controlled through a paracorr, the views show improvement.

Maybe I'll try one at a star party sometime

My central obstruction is a reasonable 21% and my scope is fitted with curved secondary supports so the views are pretty good I feel. When I want real refractor views I always have my refractors to use

While I bought my scope used I have bought other items from OO and discussed other potential purchases from time to time. I'll stick to buying their stuff used I think.

[scarp15]

Iain,

Forgot to mention. Since I use a Paracorr there is no need to flock the focuser as the Paracorr covers the entire area inside the focuser drawtube. 

Never thought that this would end up being a plus with a paracorr but you are right, generally focuser tubes do need the extra flocking...

As for the tube, it is not just the material but if you notice, the diameter of the tube is less than other comparable scopes by an inch, which saves on material weight. The drawback of this is that there is only half an inch spare space between the mirror and the OTA so tube currents could be an issue (again for those that live in cold climates, this could be an issue with mirror cooling...

That is interesting Nicos, I had not considered this slight advantage concerning the paracorr inside the focuser tube, It works well as an extension tube to (prior to which and occasionally still I use a 2" extension tube to achieve focus across my range of eps). Yes the tube diameter is narrow compared to similar aperture OTA's. It is comparable in diameter with my former 300p Flextube. This does make it a bit easier to handle and creates a slightly more slender footprint for storage and transporting. Agree that the slightly tighter fit for the mirror may though require a bit more work to regulate tube currents.

[faulksy]

That is interesting Nicos, I had not considered this slight advantage concerning the paracorr inside the focuser tube, It works well as an extension tube to (prior to which and occasionally still I use a 2" extension tube to achieve focus across my range of eps). Yes the tube diameter is narrow compared to similar aperture OTA's. It is comparable in diameter with my former 300p Flextube. This does make it a bit easier to handle and creates a slightly more slender footprint for storage and transporting. Agree that the slightly tighter fit for the mirror may though require a bit more work to regulate tube currents.

you could always lengthen your tube by 40mm like i did iain. no extensions needed.

lovely report fella and a stonking scope, i love mine

[Moonshane]

Excellent review. I have a much older oouk 12" f4 ota which I bought with a baader steeltrack on . I made my own base and agree with everything you say. To me it is the ultimate scope and my most used of four (16" f4 oouk ota for which I also made a base), 6" f11 oouk dobsonian and vixen 80mm f11 frac)

[Luke]

Great review, Nicos! This is the dob that I would love to own! It strikes me that its weight and size would be just right to feel not much effort to move, while delivering a whopping 12 inches of aperture. I hope to own one of these one day!

[nicoscy]

A great review and of a 'scope I've gone back to look at on more than a few occasions from an "if only" or "maybe when I retire" point of view.

Although there are so many variables, not least your location (Lucky thing), some more notes on your observations would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Ben,

You probably noticed that the review did not concentrate so much on what I could see through the eyepiece. This was done on purpose as the scope has fantastic mirrors but does not bend the laws of physics. I would compare the optics to a 12.5" to 13" dob in terms of brightness and the mirrors are the best I have personally used, but to bear in mind that I have been exposed to maybe 10 dobs in total for comparison purposes, so not exactly a statistically strong number.

However...

On a good evening and with careful attention to collimation (spending 5 minutes fiddling around as opposed to the usual 2-3 minutes), M51 looks like a miniature of the cover of Burnham's Celestial Handbook. Of course in much less detail, but all the structure, dark lanes, link to companion are clearly presented. The trick I think is to actually first view lots of photos of your targets and when you are out there, try to tease them out with your eye (but never using averted imagination).

I distinctly recall  excellent views of Thor's helmet which appeared in full detail and *EXACTLY* like photos you see, only of course in greyscale. Great views of the Whale Galaxy and its companion, the highlight being picking out the dark lane where the "head" of the whale is. The beauty of that sliver of a galaxy, the Needle Galaxy. I think all edge-on galaxies have a peculiar beauty and my own favorite is NGC5907, my first tough target with my 4" refractor about two and a half years ago.

I cannot of course ignore the gasp at seeing the Leo Triplet in the same FOV with my Nagler 31, busting M13 to the core by progressing through 45x, 66x, 106x and 173x, cruising the eastern and western Veil, seeing the sparkling wonder of the Double Cluster and so many other objects. Words fail to describe the images you attain from 12" aperture, 6.85mm exit pupil and 45x magnification on the Orion's Nebula and the Running Man Nebula. The image is unbelievably bright and the more you stare, the more details pop out. 

But, these observations while enjoyable do not in any way exceed the norm for a well figured mirror, which takes me back to my original point - that my review was meant more to point out the important things about the scope's structure and usability, while explaining the benefits of a fast f ratio in terms of large FOV and ability to observe in the comfort of your chair, knowing that the mirrors are also top notch.

[nicoscy]

Maybe I'll try one at a star party sometime

My central obstruction is a reasonable 21% and my scope is fitted with curved secondary supports so the views are pretty good I feel. When I want real refractor views I always have my refractors to use

While I bought my scope used I have bought other items from OO and discussed other potential purchases from time to time. I'll stick to buying their stuff used I think.

John, 

It takes a bit of patience dealing with OO, sure and you also get better value for money if you buy pre-owned and well taken care of equipment. Mine is 25% and I am pretty happy with its performance on planets - excellent contrast and all.

But yes, nothing beats a good refractor. I am also heading down that path, to sell my 120mm f5 achro and replace it with a similar or slightly larger aperture triplet for the purity of views.

[nicoscy]

That is interesting Nicos, I had not considered this slight advantage concerning the paracorr inside the focuser tube, It works well as an extension tube to (prior to which and occasionally still I use a 2" extension tube to achieve focus across my range of eps). Yes the tube diameter is narrow compared to similar aperture OTA's. It is comparable in diameter with my former 300p Flextube. This does make it a bit easier to handle and creates a slightly more slender footprint for storage and transporting. Agree that the slightly tighter fit for the mirror may though require a bit more work to regulate tube currents.

Iain, 

The Paracorr does act like an extension tube on its own, but also due to the 1.15x barlow effect, it extends the focal length a bit. As for footprint, it is so easy to store and transport, you are spot on!

Regarding tube currents, since I live in a country with temperate climate, so far in 10 months of ownership I did not have any issues with cooling or dew. There are some benefits to living in a backwarer island...

[nicoscy]

Backwater island. Gosh, it's going to take another 126 posts to get the ability to edit my spelling mistakes. Haste makes for silly mistakes...