Observing vs. Imaging

[saac]

2 hours ago, Xsubmariner said:

Principally being an Imager I find this statement disappointing. It implies imagers don’t achieve a personal experience which is rubbish. Every time I capture my first image of a new target I am in awe of the beauty and amazed at the DSO’s detail. Then with Narrowband my experience is enhanced as each specific filter captures different elements of the targets. During post processing I can clean the data and enhance different components with the image to expose the fine structural interaction.

Totally agree. At the end of the day this is done in our down time where we chose what we want to do because that's how we get our kicks.  Do one, the other or even both, whatever appeals. 

Jim 

[Marvin Jenkins]

I am certainly not here to try and get lovely moments of unison between visual and astrophotographers, I don’t think I need too as so many of us are both.

What I do want to point out if you want to compare posts between observing and AP, is the almost lack of astronomy in AP posts.

By the sheer complexity, effort and equipment battles, AP nearly always sounds like a roll call of everything that has been purchased with a mathematical layout of all the parameters and all the tools used to process the image.

I am in awe of what is posted in this forum for AP but people out there please understand that to a visual only astronomer the AP only route seems disconnected from the subject as a whole.

The flip side is reports of observations do not have the immediate impact of a picture. Having an amazing observing session and having the skills to put it to paper for other people are akin to processing of images.

I do a bit of both and enjoy it immensely. No one should say one is more worthy than the other. Just get out and do the best you can.

Marvin

[Sunshine]

You mean Pleasure vs Pain.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Sunshine

[Marvin Jenkins]

1 minute ago, Sunshine said:

You mean Pleasure vs Pain.

Different people see pain and pleasure in different ways. I for one get great pleasure from observing DSOs through my eyeball.

some people like to do a similar thing with a computer and camera. I personally love the EP, like the camera, hate the computer.

Marv

[Guest]

I am a visual kind of guy, to me there is nothing better then photons from the object bouncing through the scope and eyepiece and into my eye.  To the  guys that do AP.... kudos to you for having the patience to do it.  When it comes to AP the wife and I cheat, we have a Stellina and we let it do the work for us.  

[russ]

1 hour ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

Different people see pain and pleasure in different ways. I for one get great pleasure from observing DSOs through my eyeball.

some people like to do a similar thing with a computer and camera. I personally love the EP, like the camera, hate the computer.

Marv

That sums it up for me too.

[Epick Crom]

I'm purely a visual observer. I'm enjoying visual so much that I haven't even considered AP. I love the intimacy of visual 😊

My backyard is bortle 6/7 where I do my observing and there is a lot to see! Do whatever pleases you, after all we are all in this wonderful hobby to enjoy ourselves. For me, visual observing brings me the most joy and satisfaction.

 

Clear Skies

Joe

[AstralFields]

I have the 8" DOB as well. 

There are two levels of imaging, Solar System (planets, Moon, Sun) and DSOs. The first one can be done with no tracking using the drift method with a cheap camera. Mine is 4K , IMX 415 sensor and cost only 52$. 

Imaging being more fun? Different people, different opinions. I hate the process of imaging and hours of post-work on the laptop. I hardly call this fun. I do it about once a month because I like the results it brings and the amazing high-res pictures of the Sun and Moon. And I am talking here Solar System imaging where I only spend about 5-10 minutes capturing some data at the end of a visual session with only my laptop and cam to setup in about 5 minutes. I was going to build myself an EQ platform to produce better images of Saturn and Jupiter.. but then I asked myself. Does the internet need more images of Jupiter and Saturn from an 8" DOB? Probably not. Do I need a little better image of the planets? Nope.

As for the hours of work afterwards on the laptop. Let me put it this way: I normally get paid to do work on my laptop, not the other way around.

Visual , on the other hand. I immensely enjoy the whole session from beginning until end. Even star-hopping is a wonderful activity that is sometimes better than the eventual object I find. I put on my meditative music and have a look at the universe with my own eyes catching the very original light that left those places thousands/millions/billions of years ago.

DSO imaging? You would have to pay me to do it, then maybe I would depending on the hourly pay

 

 

 

[saac]

On 30/07/2023 at 20:23, Marvin Jenkins said:

Different people see pain and pleasure in different ways. I for one get great pleasure from observing DSOs through my eyeball.

some people like to do a similar thing with a computer and camera. I personally love the EP, like the camera, hate the computer.

Marv

That's the key, do what gives you satisfaction.  I love the opportunity that AP and digital sensors give for doing some practical astronomy. Once my imaging plan is up and running I'll move on to visual and go for a wander around the sky. 

Jim 

Edited August 8, 2023 by saac

[Kon]

I started as an observer but I got into serious planetary and ISS imaging the past year or so. I still love doing visual of DSOs and in particular nebulas. Finding them and trying to tease details out of them still excites me. I love the tranquility of being in the dark sky with no screens nothing.  Just me and the dark skies. I like observing planets but imaging for me is another level of excitement trying to get details out of my captures and compare changes; eg Venus was a big project I did this year. Imaging, daily changes in cloud formation not easily seen on the eyepiece (some excellent visual reports and sketches in SGL) but captured in UV. Or Mars storms last year etc etc.

On the other hand, you need to be realistic with your expectations if you go down the imaging route. If it is the case of snapping a few photos then a mobile will do as others are posting excellent images here, but if you want to be serious about it then the cost will spiral quickly. The 8" is excellent for visual (I have an 8") if you have some darkish skies but also excellent for planetary (have a look at posts in planetary section). I have also seen some really good DSOs with 8" Dob but you need to factor in an eq platform at minimum. I have a simple setup without tracking but I still manage very good planetary imaging by upgrading my cameras based on good suggestions at SGL.

My advise is do what makes you happy but also know your equipment limitations and do not get frustrated why others are producing better images with a different/better setup.  We are all attracted to this hobby for different reasons so follow your heart.

[DaveS]

First up, full disclosure: I am pretty much 100% imaging.

I often read posts by the visual astronomers talking about the "thrill of the chase" when hunting down faint fuzzies which are only a fuzzy grey, but for me (And, I suspect, a lot of imagers) the "thrill of the chase" comes after the data is on the computer, calibrated and stacked, and trying to tease out and reveal some faint tidal tails around interacting galaxies that might be barely above the background, or diffuse nebulosity that is just barely there.

[Xilman]

I was a purely visual observer until early 2018, when I put a cheap Canon DSLR (£50 off eBay) and a 200mm lens (another £20) on a tripod that had been kicking around for years and previously used for holding binoculars. Total outlay: much less than thousands.  It was easily good enough to take measurable star fields and so I got into precision photometry that way.

Later that year I bought Tacande Observatory. The main kit is purely imaging. Well, I can replace the imaging train with a filterwheel/eyepiece combination but choose not to because re-calibration after reverting to camera is too much hassle.

So these days I am now fully imaging and still measuring the brightness of variables, as well as astrometry of asteroids, tracking down minor bodies in the solar system and so on.  I even take very occasional pretty pictures(*) but monochrome only because I am too lazy to faff around with all that colour entails.

May get back into visual again because a rather poor quality Meade is on-site. Another delivery of round tuits will be needed before that happens.

Paul

(*) Last night NGC 6712. Does anyone know why it is marked as "Weird globular cluster" on Interstellarum?

[Alan White]

I am a visual only member of the clan, but I have dabbled in the 'art' side of the hobby for a trial and hated it.

I hated it for the very same reason that I started to dislike terestrial photography time,
which is too much technobabble, too much to give grief and too much time sat fiddling with software to manipulate the image from what it was to something else.

I find the sheer pleasure of sitting observing quietly, with nature (and others sometimes) for company most relaxing,
The photons hitting my eyeballs are mine alone and have travelled for quite some time for me to get in the way.
 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Alan White

[Stu1smartcookie]

10 minutes ago, Alan White said:

I find the sheer pleasure of sitting observing quietly, with nature (and others sometimes) for company most relaxing,
The photons hitting my eyeballs are mine alone and have travelled for quite some time for me to get in the way.

!00% Alan ... 

[Whistlin Bob]

On 28/07/2023 at 13:23, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Its a bit like comparing Sailing, speed boating and wind surfing. They all involve water, they all provide entertainment and thrills for participants but all so different.

This discussion might be an old chestnut, but this could be one of the best analogies I've come across for imaging vs observing.

I'm very enthusiastic about both, but to me they're such completely different pursuits. I agree with many of the descriptions on here.

Observing for me is perhaps 30% the chase (I like star hopping) and 70% the serenity, intimacy and beauty of laying my eyes on these incredible objects. Yes, the moment is fleeting, but so am I in comparison to the stuff I'm looking at. This is very different to anything else I do in life. 

Imaging is much more about overcoming technical challenges, and then the pleasure of trying to create something beautiful and lasting from them that I can share and compare. I really enjoy it, but also have more frustration and have to accept that sometimes I can spend hours on something and it turns out rubbish. Also, what thrilled me a couple of years ago is probably disappointing to me now: I need to feel the illusion of progress.

If I was the OP and wanted to choose, I think the best way would be to reflect on what I find most pleasurable, but also to understand that you also don't have to choose: they're not mutually exclusive. Try a bit of both with second hand kit (that you can sell without too much loss): you may find, as I did, that both work for you in different ways. 

[tomato]

I started out back in the 1980’s as purely visual as I didn’t realise you could take photos through the scope. When I saw the photos the great Jack Newton was taking, showing the colour and detail way beyond anything I could see with my Mk 1 eyeball, I was hooked and have been ever since.

But after a truly magical experience on holiday at Eddington Lodge looking through a 20” Dob I purchased  16” SW Flextube to see if I could recreate the experience at home. Unfortunately my Bortle 5/6 sky coupled with the effort to trundle the Dob out of the garage and my poorer eyesight means I haven’t really got the visual buzz back.

However, I’m planning to take the Dob to the Autumn astrocamp, now equipped with a StarSense unit, really hoping for some clear sky time.

[YogSothoth]

Visual only for me and have no interest in AP beyond the odd snap of the sun in white light through the eyepiece with my phone. For me, it’s all about sitting out in the garden for an hour or so peering through the eyepiece and trying to tease a bit more detail out of that faint grey patch that has taken thousands or even millions of years for the light to reach my eye. That and sketching (badly) what I see.

[bosun21]

It's pretty straightforward to me. Do whichever makes you happy and brings you satisfaction. Be it one or the other or indeed both, that's what matters to me.

[Paz]

I don't really think about why I don't do imaging in the same way I don't think about why I don't do the many other past times that are open to all of us to do. However being on the forum inevitably means sometimes getting insights into imaging and from what I have seen I would say a few things. The standard of the pictures people can get from amateur gear is amazing, the level of skill and dedication that imagers put into the hobby is impressive, and the scope for spending money and having to solve difficult technical problems appears to be far greater for imagers than it is for visual observers.

I do visual observing because I like being out in the field finding and looking directly at things for myself and thinking about the things I'm looking at. I like being somewhere quiet and away from the bustle of normal life, away from computers, leads, power supplies, to be able to concentrate and think about a target and to minimise how much I am having to think about gear and operating stuff. I like that it is a weird niche activity that most people will never do and most people have no idea what you can see with your own eyes. I might be observing an obscure and mediocre double in the middle of nowhere and find myself wondering is anyone else on the planet looking at this right now or is it just me and wondering things like that sitting out under the stars in the dark and the silence (I say "dark and silence" for dramatic effect, obviously for many of us it isn't very dark or silent anywhere these days!). Plus I'm lazy and I would never better the images already being made, I would rather enjoy the pictures already out there.

In the end both are great hobbies, it's a case of people understanding what they enjoy at a point in time and picking the right road/s.

[Nicola Fletcher]

I’m 100% visual too - I enjoy being outside with a simple telescope, just enjoying observing with no pressure. It’s an opportunity to spend some time with the sounds of the night as well. There’s a small river at the end of the garden that sounds lovely at night - somehow I never seem to hear it during the day. I enjoy finding objects and I normally look at them for quite a while before moving on to my next target. I make long observing lists but rarely get through half of them in a session.

Something that has really enhanced my enjoyment of astronomy is sketching. I think sketches are some of the most beautiful ways to capture the objects we observe, and in my opinion, they are just as visually appealing as many astrophotographs. I love the idea of DSO astrophotography and I am in awe of the photos people produce but I’m just not interested in spending the time at the computer processing images. I have started dabbling in widefield astrophotography but I can’t ever see it replacing visual astronomy.

[Albir phil]

The universe is there for all fortunate to be able to see it's beauty however we choose to view it👀😃📷

[Stu1smartcookie]

11 hours ago, Nicola Fletcher said:

I’m 100% visual too - I enjoy being outside with a simple telescope, just enjoying observing with no pressure. It’s an opportunity to spend some time with the sounds of the night as well. There’s a small river at the end of the garden that sounds lovely at night - somehow I never seem to hear it during the day. I enjoy finding objects and I normally look at them for quite a while before moving on to my next target. I make long observing lists but rarely get through half of them in a session.

Something that has really enhanced my enjoyment of astronomy is sketching. I think sketches are some of the most beautiful ways to capture the objects we observe, and in my opinion, they are just as visually appealing as many astrophotographs. I love the idea of DSO astrophotography and I am in awe of the photos people produce but I’m just not interested in spending the time at the computer processing images. I have started dabbling in widefield astrophotography but I can’t ever see it replacing visual astronomy.

Spot on , Nicola ... and i too can see the appeal of widefield astrophotography , which is a very forgiving way to enter the hobby . But , like you, for me it will ever replace the visual experience and of course the stillness of the night with the occasional wildlife sounds . Magical 

[GTom]

ThousandS not, a good £7-800 can get you started with AP if you don't mind 2nd hand equipment and a bit of DIY:

get a decent f4 150mm Newtonian on an EQ5, tune the mount. Get a used canon dslr from ebay <£200, dig out its uvir filer, add a coma corrector (any half-decent £100 second hand unit would do for starters), clip L-type filter, leisure battery, a cheap guider and you are ready to go.

True, AP is more hassle, I do enjoy visual better. AP simply shows different things.

Edited August 10, 2023 by GTom

[mikeDnight]

 An imager friend once complained to me that he'd done very little imaging from the UK, and chose to go annually to the US for an imaging holiday. By contrast, I as a visual only observer had logged a significant number of hours at the eyepiece throughout the course of the year. He found imaging from the UK stressful, where as I found visual observing relaxing and therapeutic. I suppose it depends on individual mind set and how patient you are. Because of my mind set, I have zero patience with technology and so have no desire to image, but if you like battling with gadgetry and constantly kicking yourself as you look for perfection, then imaging might be for you. I love the challenge of seeing with my own eyes as much detail as my scope and the local seeing will allow, and find visual observing an almost tactile experience. 

[AstroKeith]

15 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

 An imager friend once complained to me that he'd done very little imaging from the UK, and chose to go annually to the US for an imaging holiday. By contrast, I as a visual only observer had logged a significant number of hours at the eyepiece throughout the course of the year. He found imaging from the UK stressful, where as I found visual observing relaxing and therapeutic. I suppose it depends on individual mind set and how patient you are. Because of my mind set, I have zero patience with technology and so have no desire to image, but if you like battling with gadgetry and constantly kicking yourself as you look for perfection, then imaging might be for you. I love the challenge of seeing with my own eyes as much detail as my scope and the local seeing will allow, and find visual observing an almost tactile experience. 

Before I cared about my carbon footprint, I went to the Texas Star Party for 20 consecutive years (and a few Winter Star Parties too). As a visual observer I reckoned I did more observing in a week over there than I did all year here in the UK. I really enjoyed just having a scope, eyepieces, and nothing else to bother or distract me.

In later years I would be surrounded by imagers, who spend half the week getting set up and fixing things, and then the 2nd half frustrated by something else (ie, me asking them to turn their screen off!) I had one friend who never got a single exposure all week, despite 6 clear nights. 'Guiding issues'

Apart from dealing with the weather and tiredness, I think visual is very stress free.