Bedroom astronomy

[ShaunyC]

Hello all, 

Kind of a re indroduction as I joined a while ago when I purchased 127 poweseaker(James Bird) then bought a few bits to make up for realising I'd bought a naff scope, red dot finder, colimantor (I think) and a set of revelation plossl eye pieces... But I ended up giving up in the end.. 

I'm constantly looking up and know the night sky reasonable well.. And the itch has returned to own a scope again (but better than the last lol).. 

I'm thinking of taking it one step further and reaching into the relms of astrophotography... 

I've been searching and reading through posts on here for the last couple of weeks and watched alot of videos on yt but I felt myself getting quite overwhelmed lost in all the information

I don't have an infinite budget... But the 1st steps to getting the right gear to build from would be a step in the right direction(this time) .. 

My 1st purchase will be the book making every photon count which I've seen recommended time and time again... 

My view is to turn my spare room into my work station for this hobby, I have a decent size tilt n turn window so imagine I can poke the telescope out of there, it has a view between east and south, from about 52° uk

What's peoples view on this kind of approach (out of a window)? 

I understand my window for viewing will be limited but I should get some nice objects passing through the field of view... I think my main target will be DSO's  and few planetary shots would be nice... I realise there's not a one stop scope to fit the bill for both.. 

What would you suggest for my scope? Was looking at a 130 or 150pds(which shouldn't be effected by wind being in a room) explorer on 3-2 mount... As I won't be seeing alot of the sky imagine goto mount isn't worth it? And can fit RA motor and some simple upgrades at a later date... Unless I find a nice second hand deal.... 

Would the above scope be OK or should I be looking more into apocromatic triplet? 

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.. 

Sorry if I've gone on abit and spewed loads of random info out, my heads been full of stuff and hope this post will help me iron it all out... 

Thank you in advance

Shaun

[AstroMuni]

11 minutes ago, ShaunyC said:

What's peoples view on this kind of approach (out of a window)? 

This is not the ideal way to view as the warm currents can create eddys and cause the views to shimmer.  So if you want to do astrophotography (AP) I would suggest you take your scope outside somewhere.

The scopes you mention are good for AP - 130pds and 150pds. If you have a DSLR you could get started. I dont know how good the mount on your powerseeker is and if it has a Vixen style dovetail. If it has then the 127 OTA can be removed and replaced with the 130  OTA (as an example). And that would be your least expensive route.

Edited December 2, 2020 by AstroMuni

[Zermelo]

Hi Shaun,

- apart from the obvious restriction of available sky that a bedroom window will provide, the other big problem with looking out of a window is that you will get a lot of air disturbance caused by thermals from the house. It would be an issue for visual astronomy and I imagine even more so for astrophotography.

- good results can be achieved with both 130 and 150PDS. The apo triplet will cost a lot more, if it's any good. But with imaging, the main consideration is the mount. An EQ3-2 would work for visual, but won't really cut it for imaging. You are looking at the best part of a £1000 for a decent one that will let you progress.

- Making Every Photon Count is always recommended by those who know, so I'd suggest getting that first and having a read

All the best

[ShaunyC]

Thank you for your responses.. 

I did read something about air disturbance and cool down time? 

Totally didn't think about that out of my house window but yea can imagine that would cause conflict... 

Do you think it would work if I turned heating off to that room and got it as cold as outside? 

[Marvin Jenkins]

Are you able to see Polaris from window? Without the pole star I cannot see how you would polar align.

AP in its largest form is with the use of an equatorial mount to align with the NCP and track from there.

If not then short duration EP shots of whatever you can see could be achieved.

Marv

[Tiny Clanger]

My spare bedroom faces south and has no heating (except when specifically needed for visitors) and has the door shut all the time (to keep the cat out : one of my family has allergies and whilst they have to put up with my feline overlord's presence in the rest of the house,  the cat is excluded from that room so at least they can sleep easy ).The room is cooler than the rest of the house, but still noticeably warmer than outdoors in winter (and very hot compared with outdoors in the summer ).  Internal house walls and ceilings/floors are not particularly good insulators. You'd need to open the window wide for a few hours before use to get the temperatures matched.

House external walls though,  in the UK are probably cavity walls with an exterior skin of brick : they are great at absorbing daytime warmth and radiating it at night. So even if your room is as cold as the outside, you will get a 'curtain' of turbulent, rising,  heated air from the house structure. That's why the observatories you see are not brick but wood or fiberglass or plastic.

 

 

[ShaunyC]

52 minutes ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

Are you able to see Polaris from window? Without the pole star I cannot see how you would polar align.

Thank you for your comment.. 

Not being able to see Polaris is one thing i had at least considered... When I looked into it there is a method called drift alignment appernetly that dosent need Polaris never done it before so not 100% how it works.. Just thought as long as there's a way I will reaserch it more once I get set up.. 

37 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

 

Thank you for sharing you experience.. 

I have solid 9" walls in that part of the house not sure if It would make much difference? 

This is something I've kind of overlooked or didn't expect to be as much of a problem as you guys are all saying... 

Will it totally ruin my images? Or will I atleast be able to get something to wet my appetite? Is there anyway to minimise the impact? 

If I get it all up and running I imagine I will want to widen my observations before long so will eventually be taking the rig outside where this shouldn't be a problem... 

[happy-kat]

There's a post that mentions aligning when you can't see Polaris and it uses an app, I've not tried it 

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/362486-how-to-get-quick-and-easy-polar-alignment-and-add-a-push-to-finder-screen-to-an-eq2-mounted-scope-all-for-£20/

 

[KP82]

28 minutes ago, ShaunyC said:

Thank you for your comment.. 

Not being able to see Polaris is one thing i had at least considered... When I looked into it there is a method called drift alignment appernetly that dosent need Polaris never done it before so not 100% how it works.. Just thought as long as there's a way I will reaserch it more once I get set up.. 

Thank you for sharing you experience.. 

I have solid 9" walls in that part of the house not sure if It would make much difference? 

This is something I've kind of overlooked or didn't expect to be as much of a problem as you guys are all saying... 

Will it totally ruin my images? Or will I atleast be able to get something to wet my appetite? Is there anyway to minimise the impact? 

If I get it all up and running I imagine I will want to widen my observations before long so will eventually be taking the rig outside where this shouldn't be a problem... 

If you could minimise the thermal difference (e.g. no heating, windows wide open to let the room temperature be acclimatised to the outside), I think it would work for certain bright DSO targets.

Yes you can certainly polar align indoor with drift align. However your window of capture will be limited while your targets are still low near the horizon which means more atmoshpere interference.

[Tiny Clanger]

1 hour ago, ShaunyC said:

Thank you for your comment.. 

Not being able to see Polaris is one thing i had at least considered... When I looked into it there is a method called drift alignment appernetly that dosent need Polaris never done it before so not 100% how it works.. Just thought as long as there's a way I will reaserch it more once I get set up.. 

Thank you for sharing you experience.. 

I have solid 9" walls in that part of the house not sure if It would make much difference? 

This is something I've kind of overlooked or didn't expect to be as much of a problem as you guys are all saying... 

Will it totally ruin my images? Or will I atleast be able to get something to wet my appetite? Is there anyway to minimise the impact? 

If I get it all up and running I imagine I will want to widen my observations before long so will eventually be taking the rig outside where this shouldn't be a problem... 

My neighbour has storage heaters which provide the background heat in her house : they were popular heating options at some time in the past. What they do is use cheap night time (economy 7) electricity to heat up radiators which are essentially bricks inside a metal box (I'd estimate the radiators are maybe 50x50x10cm) and  with an adjustable vent on the top giving a bit of control over the upward warm air flow. A house wall has more volume and can store more energy in heat form. Having my back garden's view with houses nearby to the south east, I can say from personal experience that they cause turbulence and poor viewing above their roofs. Most advice on where to site a telescope outdoors says don't set up on slabs or concrete if at all possible, better get on grass which will not be radiating stored heat as much.

Another consideration is the telescope tripod span : in order to rise above a windowledge, you will need a tripod extended quite high , I just checked my tripod (not an astro specific model, but a big solid manfrotto photo tripod) and the closest I could get it to a wall was 29cm .That's from the wall to the centre of the mount, with two tripod legs touching the wall, and the third sticking out where you'd trip over it . I'm certain astro tripods would have a similar span, so please consider what arc of the sky your telescope would have access to not by looking while you are stood at the window, but 30cm back from the window. It gets even more of a problem if you get a newtonian 'scope with the viewfinder out of the side at the front ...

Sorry if this all sounds very negative, but I don't want you to have an expensive disappointment !

Heather

[ShaunyC]

1 hour ago, happy-kat said:

There's a post that mentions aligning when you can't see Polaris and it uses an app, I've not tried it 

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/362486-how-to-get-quick-and-easy-polar-alignment-and-add-a-push-to-finder-screen-to-an-eq2-mounted-scope-all-for-£20/

 

Thank you I will try one of the apps mentioned

 

1 hour ago, KP82 said:

If you could minimise the thermal difference (e.g. no heating, windows wide open to let the room temperature be acclimatised to the outside), I think it would work for certain bright DSO targets.

Yes you can certainly polar align indoor with drift align. However your window of capture will be limited while your targets are still low near the horizon which means more atmoshpere interference.

I will try my best to create an ambient temperature with outside.. 

Think last time I looked out there orion was in view, but as you say quite low, so potentially atmosphere would become a problem aswell 

16 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Another consideration is the telescope tripod span : in order to rise above a windowledge, you will need a tripod extended quite high , I just checked my tripod (not an astro specific model, but a big solid manfrotto photo tripod) and the closest I could get it to a wall was 29cm .That's from the wall to the centre of the mount, with two tripod legs touching the wall, and the third sticking out where you'd trip over it . I'm certain astro tripods would have a similar span, so please consider what arc of the sky your telescope would have access to not by looking while you are stood at the window, but 30cm back from the window. It gets even more of a problem if you get a newtonian 'scope with the viewfinder out of the side at the front ...

Sorry if this all sounds very negative, but I don't want you to have an expensive disappointment !

Heather

I did consider this about the telescope being too far in and minimising the field of view even more.. Especially not being able to aim up much.. 

I figured I will wait to see how bad it is when I've actually got the scope in situ. 

I imagine the actual appature of the tube will stick out as far as the legs tho? Maybe? 

One solution I did think of for this and which might help a little towards radiated heat in the house is to construct a slidding table top or even just some sort of ledge that hangs out the window.. I have a tiled lean to not far below for support.. This would also help in the fact I would have the legs of the tripod lowered to aid rigidity.. 

 

Thank you everyone for your comments they have all given me something to think about..

[happy-kat]

You mention getting into astrophotography, what camera do you already own?

You don't need a telescope to capture many DSO, just wondering what you may already own.

[AstroMuni]

1 hour ago, ShaunyC said:

I imagine the actual appature of the tube will stick out as far as the legs tho? Maybe? 

The other consideration when viewing thro the window is - as the OTA is a Reflector, you will need to be at front end (ie sticking outside the window), if you know what I mean. If this were a Refractor you would be at the far end behind the OTA.

If you are imaging then you are fine as its the camera which is there, but in practical situations there is sometimes a need for you to view through the eyepiece as well, at times.

Edited December 2, 2020 by AstroMuni

[M40]

Hello Shaun, first off, I remember reading a few years ago of a disabled astronomer viewing from his window, so anything is possible if a bit restricted.

What you have given everybody here is an out of the box question, so as you have mentioned astrophotography, have you considered something like the sky watcher star adventurer mount with a camera and DSLR lens and completely ignore visual astronomy?

With a little imagination and some diy skills on some metal framework (google unistrut, readily available from most electrical wholesalers over the counter or online) you could build a frame with a suitable counterbalance which holds your camera and mount out of the window. A used DSLR with live view capabilities together with an ok lens gets you off and running with probably the most expensive item being the tracking mount. You can then upgrade at a later date as budgets allow.

It can be difficult for me to sometimes see Polaris so I have downloaded and use polar scope align pro, cost £2.49 and works well. It does have to be perfectly aligned on your mount though and away from steel so I have used a long vixen style dovetail bar to hold the phone, more diy skills needed 😜

Just a thought 👍 Enjoy

[ShaunyC]

3 hours ago, happy-kat said:

You mention getting into astrophotography, what camera do you already own?

You don't need a telescope to capture many DSO, just wondering what you may already own.

I don't at present own a dlsr, I read somewhere cannon 450d's are quite cheap and do a descent job? 

Jst to add I don't own a laptop yet either so the telescope is the only part of the toys needed. 

3 hours ago, AstroMuni said:

The other consideration when viewing thro the window is - as the OTA is a Reflector, you will need to be at front end (ie sticking outside the window), if you know what I mean. If this were a Refractor you would be at the far end behind the OTA.

If you are imaging then you are fine as its the camera which is there, but in practical situations there is sometimes a need for you to view through the eyepiece as well, at times.

This is something that totally skipped my mind lol.. Will have to have a long neck to look in the eyepiece out the window... 

I just had it in my head I will be doing all my veiw via laptop screen in the room... 

Camera will be doing all the dangerous work lol

55 minutes ago, M40 said:

Hello Shaun, first off, I remember reading a few years ago of a disabled astronomer viewing from his window, so anything is possible if a bit restricted.

What you have given everybody here is an out of the box question, so as you have mentioned astrophotography, have you considered something like the sky watcher star adventurer mount with a camera and DSLR lens and completely ignore visual astronomy?

With a little imagination and some diy skills on some metal framework (google unistrut, readily available from most electrical wholesalers over the counter or online) you could build a frame with a suitable counterbalance which holds your camera and mount out of the window. A used DSLR with live view capabilities together with an ok lens gets you off and running with probably the most expensive item being the tracking mount. You can then upgrade at a later date as budgets allow.

It can be difficult for me to sometimes see Polaris so I have downloaded and use polar scope align pro, cost £2.49 and works well. It does have to be perfectly aligned on your mount though and away from steel so I have used a long vixen style dovetail bar to hold the phone, more diy skills needed 😜

Just a thought 👍 Enjoy

Hello m40, its good to hear this has been attempted before, I suppose I'm just looking for an excuse to use my empty room up.... Also it might get abit more use if things are already half set up ready to use in one spot rather than lugging everything about. 

I have seen some decent images done with just a dlsr and mount.. But I can't help myself from feeling this isn't astrophotography with just a camera, silly I know.. 

And I'm all for getting involved with DIY projects.. I even considered making my own scope lol

[happy-kat]

There's a link to my barn door build in my signature if you are into diy.

[Chefgage]

1

Edited December 3, 2020 by Chefgage

[Chefgage]

9 hours ago, ShaunyC said:

 

I have seen some decent images done with just a dlsr and mount.. But I can't help myself from feeling this isn't astrophotography with just a camera, silly I know.. 

 

Imaging with just a camera and lens is indeed astrophotography. It depends on what you are trying to image. For example the North American nebula fits nicely in a 135mm lens but will not fit very well in say a DSLR connected to a skywatcher 72ed refractor of focal length of 420mm

 

 

 

 

[reezeh]

My tuppence-worth says that you'll be limited to low-power sweeping from a house window. Forget anything involving magnification for the reasons already mentioned and no matter what, what you'll really want to look at is bound to be just out of reach of where you can point your scope to.

Worth doing for when you can't get out for whatever reason but limited. 

[MartinHiggins]

Hi Shaun, I view from my loft window in a Bortle 8 area so probably a similar situation to yours. Having said that I just make the best of it. The window faces south so rather than setting unrealistic goals I've settled on mainly viewing the moon and I've had views that blow me away.

On the plus side I don't have to set up a scope and drag it around every time I want to view, I'm always comfy and I don't have to consider whether It's worth setting up if the weather looks a bit iffy. I use a Celestron C8 which is an SCT scope and I think that using a scope with a design that you view through from the other end of that which is pocking out of the window is the way to go, so an SCT, Mak or refractor will work best.

Hope it works out for you.

Cheers

[Neil H]

Hi i cant always get polaris so i use polar alginment pro its not bad i have checked it a few times and has bin spot on at its worse its out by a degree 

If you can have a room just for your scope you may be able to leave mount set up or i wonder if you can make a pier 

[Moonshed]

1 hour ago, reezeh said:

My tuppence-worth says that you'll be limited to low-power sweeping from a house window. Forget anything involving magnification for the reasons already mentioned and no matter what, what you'll really want to look at is bound to be just out of reach of where you can point your scope to.

Worth doing for when you can't get out for whatever reason but limited. 

Robert, totally agree.

Shaun, 
I realise that there have been a number of very helpful posts to try and make bedroom viewing and astrophotography a reality. My view is that  with so many factors against it you have to ask yourself is that what you really want? I feel that you are going to run into so many problems and frustrations you will most like give up, it’s hard enough when doing astrophotography outside and with a telescope permanently set up and ready to go!

Why are you prepared to make so much trouble for yourself when you don’t have to? What have you got against going outdoors? Think of all the advantages: Polaris for polar alignment, no thermals messing up your viewing or astrophotography, an open sky in all directions, the ability to point your scope in any direction and so on. I am puzzled why you are prepared to surrender so many advantages to an already challenging hobby just so you can stay indoors when you don’t have to.

If you want to make use of your spare room you could use it to process your images, which can take up a lot of time, just fit it out with a table/desk, a chair, a laptop and you are ready to go.

I wish you well in your astronomy whatever direction you decide to go, I just wanted you to think about going outdoors. 

Keith

Edited December 3, 2020 by Moonshed

[Skipper Billy]

Apart from all the (valid) points already made I don't think vibration has been mentioned.

Even though the house may feel sturdy in reality they move - a lot!

Set up your scope as you would for visual and focus on something some distance away and keep looking through the eyepiece whilst someone walks past your tripod/mount.  You will see what I mean!!

Not trying to put you off - just trying to make sure you are aware of all the pitfalls.

 

 

[DaveS]

Maybe have a word with Louise, @Thalestris24, she images (Weather permitting) from her living room.

[Thalestris24]

47 minutes ago, DaveS said:

Maybe have a word with Louise, @Thalestris24, she images (Weather permitting) from her living room.

Hello? You rang?

Yes, I try to image from indoors. Purely because I live on my own in a 2nd floor flat and it's too difficult for little me to get all the kit down and up the stairs. Imaging through a window does have severe limitations which makes it a rather frustrating experience. The negative effects of thermals on image quality and the limited view of the sky are just two of the limitations. On the rare occasions I get to do any imaging in the winter I have to switch the heating off and let the room temperature stabilise towards the low end - requires warm clothing! If you can see towards the East and towards the South then you can drift align using the PHD2 drift align tool. You can adjust Alt as far East as you can point and adjust Az as far South as you can point. Keeping the focal length short minimises the errors caused by any PA inaccuracies. It's a good idea to start off with a just a camera and lens on a good eq mount. It's all you need, really. And, yeah, you need to be several metres from the mount to avoid unwanted movements. On the plus side you can have a cuppa and watch tv at the same time as imaging  This year has been the absolute worst for imaging for me because of the amount of cloudy nights here. Anyone who lives in Glasgow really shouldn't take up astrophotography as a hobby... I spend more time doing photomicrography these days - totally independent of the weather and not nearly so expensive!

All the best

Louise

ps you don't have to worry about star alignment - just use platesolving to get precisely on target!

Edited December 3, 2020 by Thalestris24