Bedroom astronomy

[ShaunyC]

Hello again thank you for more posts it's nice to hear even out of a window without breaking the bank you can get some shots to be proud of and receive the enjoyment from the hobby.... 

My original idea was basicly as has been mentioned to just strap my phone to a telescope eyepiece... But as I started reading more, to get anything close to what I've seen a dslr is needed.... (BTW I am aware of the let down of looking thro a tesescope for the 1st time, when somene says "can you see it" and my response is "what.. that little smudge" 😂) 

So talking of cameras which has been my main research goal this last day or so.. 

The 2 I've come to decided between but if either show themselves at the right price I'll take it, is the 450d and 600d(mainly for the twisty lcd) but I'm sure I read about other benifits... One thing I'm curious about tho is from watching a vid on mounts and upgrades they said about wobble arc seconds in relation with pixel size of the camera lens which can blurr pictures and even worse the more zoomed in you are... 

So after looking at this site.. 

http://dslrmodifications.com/DSLRcomparison.html

It seems the 600d has smaller pixels than the 450d, so will that mean the arc second wobble will cover more pixels thus making it harder to get a clear image? And the 450d easier? 

Also another total noob question about exposure.. What will the difference be between taking say 300x2sec shots and 30x20sec shots... 

They've both had 600sec of light gathering, sorry if this is a stupid question... 

Cheers

[gilesco]

2 minutes ago, ShaunyC said:

Also another total noob question about exposure.. What will the difference be between taking say 300x2sec shots and 30x20sec shots...

Ah... noise, each exposure contains noise, 300 sets of noise is worse than 30 sets of noise. Also signal, 20 secs contain more signal than 2 secs.

So generally, 30x20s is going to be better, assuming you are aligned.

Dr Glover has a great talk about this, it is linked to on my website blog, or you can search YouTube for it.

[ShaunyC]

Ah.... Thanks 👍

Will have a look for Dr glover's video... 

 

[ShaunyC]

This looks filddly

[Thalestris24]

16 minutes ago, ShaunyC said:

Hello again thank you for more posts it's nice to hear even out of a window without breaking the bank you can get some shots to be proud of and receive the enjoyment from the hobby.... 

My original idea was basicly as has been mentioned to just strap my phone to a telescope eyepiece... But as I started reading more, to get anything close to what I've seen a dslr is needed.... (BTW I am aware of the let down of looking thro a tesescope for the 1st time, when somene says "can you see it" and my response is "what.. that little smudge" 😂) 

So talking of cameras which has been my main research goal this last day or so.. 

The 2 I've come to decided between but if either show themselves at the right price I'll take it, is the 450d and 600d(mainly for the twisty lcd) but I'm sure I read about other benifits... One thing I'm curious about tho is from watching a vid on mounts and upgrades they said about wobble arc seconds in relation with pixel size of the camera lens which can blurr pictures and even worse the more zoomed in you are... 

So after looking at this site.. 

http://dslrmodifications.com/DSLRcomparison.html

It seems the 600d has smaller pixels than the 450d, so will that mean the arc second wobble will cover more pixels thus making it harder to get a clear image? And the 450d easier? 

Also another total noob question about exposure.. What will the difference be between taking say 300x2sec shots and 30x20sec shots... 

They've both had 600sec of light gathering, sorry if this is a stupid question... 

Cheers

Hi there

If you are sticking to a camera plus lens for the foreseeable future then you don't have to worry about arc secs/pixel. What you do need to do is study and research so that you understand, in practical terms, what you're doing and why you're doing it. As I mentioned, sticking to a short focal length makes astro imaging life much easier! The only thing you'll pick up with a phone plus eyepiece is going to be the Moon and some of the brighter planets. You need longer exposures and greater integration time for dso's. At the same time, you need very long focal lengths to get images of planets which are more interesting than small circles of a couple of mm in diameter. Integration time is often measured in hours for many dso targets. That can be something like, say, 20 x 6mins or 10 x 12 mins.  If you do a 12 min (or more) exposure then you are risking something going wrong and the whole frame being lost. My favourite one (not!) is car headlights ruining a sub frame. It can just as easily be clouds, aeroplanes etc.

The other thing is to use your camera tethered to a laptop/pc, and with a mains supply (only if you're indoors) or a converter from a 12V battery if you're outside. It's normal to use Canon's live view for setting up and getting focused. You wouldn't normally bother with the small camera lcd (well, I wouldn't). I'd also recommend getting a widescreen monitor to plug into your laptop (again, if you're indoors). It makes life much easier when you're running multiple pieces of software.

Louise 

[Thalestris24]

1 minute ago, ShaunyC said:

This looks filddly

I would get at least a 600d and, if possible, an already modded one. 

[happy-kat]

A modified camera is not essential, read up and see what has been captured with a none modified camera or a modified one to see if for what you want to do you feel you need to use a modified one. I don't use a modified camera as I'm limited by exposure length. What bortle are your skies as this might be an influencing factor? 

I don't have a laptop when I use the canon 1100d I connect it to my android smartphone and use DSLR Controller application (check which canon models are supported) to control the camera and give a much bigger screen to help with focusing and I use a mix of newer and old fully manual lenses. I took comet Neowise with the camera on a gorilla pod looking out of an open bedroom window using a vintage manual 55mm lens and the camera is powered from it's battery which lasts as long as I need a good few hours though I've been caught out when I had forgotten to charge it. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by happy-kat

[ShaunyC]

I will start with a camera but I imagine I will want to upgrade with a tescope before long put an offer in on a 200p earlier 😂 but realistcly Ill wait until the 130pds comes back in stock or I come across one second hand... 

OK ill scrap the moddng idea for now tbf when I watched a comparison earlier it made the image look a red hue... But you could see it made the fainter nebula gasses stand out more... 

I belive I'm in bottle class 6 looking on a light pollution map.. 

I think I see something easier about apt controlling camera from laptop not sure if it read anything above a 600d is acceptable? 

Its crazy all this info I'm trying to decipher 🤯

Thank you for trying to help me make sense of it all 👍

[Thalestris24]

22 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

A modified camera is not essential, read up and see what has been captured with a none modified camera or a modified one to see if for what you want to do you feel you need to use a modified one. I don't use a modified camera as I'm limited by exposure length. What bortle are your skies as this might be an influencing factor? 

I don't have a laptop when I use the canon 1100d I connect it to my android smartphone and use DSLR Controller application (check which canon models are supported) to control the camera and give a much bigger screen to help with focusing and I use a mix of newer and old fully manual lenses. I took comet Neowise with the camera on a gorilla pod looking out of an open bedroom window using a vintage manual 55mm lens and the camera is powered from it's battery which lasts as long as I need a good few hours though I've been caught out when I had forgotten to charge it. 

Well... I'd say if you have a Canon (or other supported brand) camera which is able to pick up Ha (some do) and you have a narrowband filter, then you should be able to image Ha-emitting nebulas. If your camera can't pick up Ha but can be modded then it's worth getting that done. The example image I posted above was taken with a narrowband filter in Bortle 9 city skies. I do still get gradients caused by nearby streetlights but I can still get images. 

Louise

[Thalestris24]

1 minute ago, ShaunyC said:

I will start with a camera but I imagine I will want to upgrade with a tescope before long put an offer in on a 200p earlier 😂 but realistcly Ill wait until the 130pds comes back in stock or I come across one second hand... 

OK ill scrap the moddng idea for now tbf when I watched a comparison earlier it made the image look a red hue... But you could see it made the fainter nebula gasses stand out more... 

I belive I'm in bottle class 6 looking on a light pollution map.. 

I think I see something easier about apt controlling camera from laptop not sure if it read anything above a 600d is acceptable? 

Its crazy all this info I'm trying to decipher 🤯

Thank you for trying to help me make sense of it all 👍

Please don't get a telescope because it seems like that's what you need or want! A 200p needs an Heq5 mount and is big and bulky and heavy. In fact, you would probably need a 200pds for imaging but that's still equally big and bulky! Even a 130pds is a bit on the bulky side. I have a 200pds and a 130pds and they both sit in the corner gathering dust. Make your astro life easier and just get a decent goto mount with a camera and lens! There are so many targets you can pick up with just a 200mm or 300mm lens. A bulky reflector is awkward to balance and the focal length means you have to guide and you really need an heq5 pro.

Louise 

[gilesco]

3 minutes ago, Thalestris24 said:

Please don't get a telescope because it seems like that's what you need or want! A 200p needs an Heq5 mount and is big and bulky and heavy. In fact, you would probably need a 200pds for imaging but that's still equally big and bulky! Even a 130pds is a bit on the bulky side. I have a 200pds and a 130pds and they both sit in the corner gathering dust. Make your astro life easier and just get a decent goto mount with a camera and lens! There are so many targets you can pick up with just a 200mm or 300mm lens. A bulky reflector is awkward to balance and the focal length means you have to guide and you really need an heq5 pro.

Louise 

I bought a £2000 mount and put a £200 OTA on it until I could afford something better. Not telling you to go down that route, but investing in the mount at first is a good idea...

[Thalestris24]

12 minutes ago, gilesco said:

I bought a £2000 mount and put a £200 OTA on it until I could afford something better. Not telling you to go down that route, but investing in the mount at first is a good idea...

Not worth doing as a beginner who is imaging from indoors...

[gilesco]

2 hours ago, Thalestris24 said:

Not worth doing as a beginner who is imaging from indoors...

Certainly, just making it clear to the OP that the initial scope, lens is less important than the mount for longer exposures.

[Thalestris24]

1 minute ago, gilesco said:

Certainly, just making it clear to the OP that the initial scope, lens is less important than the mount for longer exposures.

But you don't need to spend so much if only imaging with a camera/lens or 80mm frac and definitely not so much if imaging through a bedroom window!

 

[Moonshed]

3 hours ago, gilesco said:

I bought a £2000 mount and put a £200 OTA on it until I could afford something better. Not telling you to go down that route, but investing in the mount at first is a good idea...

I would say your advice is good if the person that asked could afford a £2000 mount and they were without doubt going to take up astrophotography at some point, but the OP has already said they have a limited budget. Now even if they somehow managed to raise that much money I’m not at all sure that would be a good buy for someone quiet new to astronomy who intends trying it out by observing from an upstairs spare room. It has to be considered that under such unfavourable conditions there is a good chance interest would quickly wane to the point of collecting dust.

Surely it would make more sense not to invest too heavily when buying gear at this stage but instead buy cheap and see how it goes, if it doesn’t work out then not a lot of money is lost, plus it could easily be sold to new beginners. If it does work out then with the experience gained, and a decision made regarding moving out doors and starting astrophotography, then is the right time to invest in a good mount.

[ShaunyC]

Wahoo.... 1st part of my collection bought 🥁🥁🥁 cannon 600d 😁 £100 that's not too bad is it?... 

The 200p I was looking at was on a eq5 mount.. Which from what I've read still might struggle with ota alone never mind dlsr and guide mount etc...  It just seemed a decent price but looking through suppliers that setup isn't much more new.... And anyway I've talked myself out of getting silly with appature size... 

This whole idea was to give me a taste to see if its something I can become obsessed with and if I go too big from the off, never mind the headaches and frustration that will probably put me off I'll have nothing to grow into, as such...

3 hours ago, gilesco said:

I bought a £2000 mount and put a £200 OTA on it until I could afford something better. Not telling you to go down that route, but investing in the mount at first is a good idea...

I do get what your saying and I've read it so many times about the mount being the most important thing but apart from spending £2k on a mount making me feel nauseous, it's no good spending that kind of money on something that becomes moth balled in the corner...

[ShaunyC]

14 minutes ago, Moonshed said:

I would say your advice is good if the person that asked could afford a £2000 mount and they were without doubt going to take up astrophotography at some point, but the OP has already said they have a limited budget. Now even if they somehow managed to raise that much money I’m not at all sure that would be a good buy for someone quiet new to astronomy who intends trying it out by observing from an upstairs spare room. It has to be considered that under such unfavourable conditions there is a good chance interest would quickly wane to the point of collecting dust.

Surely it would make more sense not to invest too heavily when buying gear at this stage but instead buy cheap and see how it goes, if it doesn’t work out then not a lot of money is lost, plus it could easily be sold to new beginners. If it does work out then with the experience gained, and a decision made regarding moving out doors and starting astrophotography, then is the right time to invest in a good mount.

Exactly what I'm thinking.. 

Enough to have a good go and test the waters.. Then if it is something I gel with I can upgrade bits as I grow... 

Also if I get things now that are reasonable good gear they will have resale value when I do grow 👍

[Moonshed]

1 hour ago, ShaunyC said:

Exactly what I'm thinking.. 

Enough to have a good go and test the waters.. Then if it is something I gel with I can upgrade bits as I grow... 

Also if I get things now that are reasonable good gear they will have resale value when I do grow 👍

All I can add Shaun is that I first took up astronomy 60 years ago and the scope I use today I bought second hand 30 years ago for £1250 including an ancient driven mount and a couple of eyepieces and bits and pieces. My biggest single expenditure since has been my EQ5  GOTO mount costing £500 in 2014. I purchased a second hand Canon 1100D body three years ago which I used to start me off in astrophotography and last month I added a ZWO camera for £225 so I could capture images of Mars. With this fairly modest equipment, by some standards, I have been able to take some not too shabby images of Mars with the ZWO,  and with my Canon the Andromeda Galaxy, the Orion Nebula, Triangulum Galaxy, Whirpool Galaxy and a few others.

My point is you do not have to lay out shed loads of cash to get started, even into astrophotography, you can add to your kit bit by bit as your experience grows, and it enables you to spread the load over a number of years. I would suggest only a small percentage of members have been able to start off with exactly the gear they wanted, the vast majority of us - I would guess - have only so much disposable income and my wife likes to get her hands on it too, god knows why because she just isn’t into astronomy at all, lol.

Keith

Edited December 5, 2020 by Moonshed

[ShaunyC]

16 hours ago, Thalestris24 said:

I have a 200pds and a 130pds and they both sit in the corner gathering dust. 

Fancy selling your 130pds?

Would be going to a good home 😁

[Thalestris24]

33 minutes ago, ShaunyC said:

Fancy selling your 130pds?

Would be going to a good home 😁

It's not in a fit state to be passed on to someone else. I had a lot of trouble with the focuser not being square to the tube and not being able to collimate properly. In the end I gave up on it (life is too short!) and moved over to the much simpler and hassle-free refractors/lenses. 

Louise

[ShaunyC]

3 minutes ago, Thalestris24 said:

It's not in a fit state to be passed on to someone else. I had a lot of trouble with the focuser not being square to the tube and not being able to collimate properly. In the end I gave up on it (life is too short!) and moved over to the much simpler and hassle-free refractors/lenses. 

Louise

Oh right that sounds a pia, was it like that straight out the box? 

[Thalestris24]

3 minutes ago, ShaunyC said:

Oh right that sounds a pia, was it like that straight out the box? 

I think it must have been - it was some years ago (2015, I think). Reflectors can be a pain to maintain as well as being bulky.

Louise

[ShaunyC]

Had a right headache trying to learn another technical language of dlsr lenses to accompany my 600d when it arrives.... 

But thankfully I've just seen this video, which is based on the setup I was thinking of and if I can get anything close to these images I would be over the moon 🌠🌠🌛🌛 

So back on with a pds search it is 😁

[MartinHiggins]

Hi All,

As an observer in a loft I've really enjoyed this thread.  Make the best of what  you have and though it's challenging it still can be very rewarding!

Cheers

[ShaunyC]

Hopefully I'll have some images to share in the near future.. 

Glad to hear you still manage to get enjoyment looking through your loft, give's me a little bit of hope 👍