The Future of Imaging - Is everything heading OSC

[DaveS]

3 hours ago, smr said:

For my other hobby which is Landscape Photography, I started out with an APS-C sensor and always had in mind to jump up to and spent years window shopping full frame cameras, and then a new technology came along, Mirrorless (which began to improve and improve), and now instead of going from APS-C to FF, I'll be skipping FF DSLRs altogether and buying Mirrorless instead. 

The point is technology is constantly evolving, so in 5-10 years time OSC Cameras could be absolutely mind blowing in their performance, and all the performance we may need? 

Fuji GFX?

[kirkster501]

12 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

My experience with Yves' data was so positive that I can say with certainty that I'd like to use a full frame QHY OSC in our Tak (530mm FL.)  https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/360110-cepheus-cygnus-megamosaic/ Near the end there's a highly relevant comment from Yves. I hope Santa is reading this but I don't suppose he is...

What is certain: the camera has picked up the faint Ha signal very well indeed. There is no added Ha here. The stars are remarkably small. Sure, I further reduced them but they began smaller than my CCD stars, and this is an almighty bonus in widefield imaging. The data is incredibly clean. I was half expecting to be told off for excessive NR in the darkest regions like the NAN dust lanes when, in fact, no NR whatever has been applied anywhere despite the very short integration per panel. I also like the 'look' the camera has delivered. There's something about the gradual way the Ha emerges from the dust which is very natural and pleasing to my eye. And, finally, 27 meg is not way OTT. I have a fast machine but the file sizes are not preposterous.

Olly

 

Did I read that right? Olly praising OSC and CMOS ?😂.  A road to Damascus moment Olly?

[ollypenrice]

8 hours ago, kirkster501 said:

Did I read that right? Olly praising OSC and CMOS ?😂.  A road to Damascus moment Olly?

I never stray far from experience, Steve, and when CMOS and OSC technology evolve - so do I! Yves' is the first such camera which has produced data I've thoroughly enjoyed working on.

One caveat: I've only processed dark site data from this camera so I've no idea how it would perform under LP.

Olly

[kirkster501]

Which full frame QHY OSC did you use Yves/Olly for the picture in the other thread?  Sorry if I missed it but you just mention QHY OSC... ?

[ollypenrice]

2 hours ago, kirkster501 said:

Which full frame QHY OSC did you use Yves/Olly for the picture in the other thread?  Sorry if I missed it but you just mention QHY OSC... ?

I think it's the 128C.

Olly

[carastro]

Depressing thought if mono cameras are going to disappear.  I have no desire to use OSC even with fancy filters.

Carole 

[DaveS]

QHY 128C

[DaveS]

31 minutes ago, carastro said:

Depressing thought if mono cameras are going to disappear.  I have no desire to use OSC even with fancy filters.

Carole 

Neither do I really as I do a lot of SHO narrow-band, and trying to get real SHO out of an OSC involves too much of a fudge.

Which is why I'm really hoping for a mono version of the QHY 268, or ASI 2600 (Prefer the QHY though).

[Chris]

The new batch of CMOS OSC's do look incredible, especially combined with new filters like the L-enhance and L-Extreme, but I do think there will always be an application for mono. Namely narrow band and scientific applications.

It's a great subject but I'm not worried compared to how worried I am about the sky becoming totally full of satellite chains. 

[billhinge]

er hasn't the QHY268C been unobtainable for ages, no one seems to be selling it even in the US, the pro version estimated cost I saw isn't exactly cheap ($2999) never mind a mono version if  it ever appears. After you take off the effect of the bayer matrix isn't it equivalent to a very good 6.5 Mp mono ?

I was really interested in this camera months back but if you can't even buy a basic version of it then whats the point? (still waiting  for my KAF-8300 )

Anyway while I wait I got a Flir Grasshopper IMX252 colour coming next week so I can take some moon pics - it also comes in mono ;-). 

[smr]

1 hour ago, billhinge said:

er hasn't the QHY268C been unobtainable for ages, no one seems to be selling it even in the US, the pro version estimated cost I saw isn't exactly cheap ($2999) never mind a mono version if  it ever appears. After you take off the effect of the bayer matrix isn't it equivalent to a very good 6.5 Mp mono ?

I was really interested in this camera months back but if you can't even buy a basic version of it then whats the point? (still waiting  for my KAF-8300 )

Anyway while I wait I got a Flir Grasshopper IMX252 colour coming next week so I can take some moon pics - it also comes in mono ;-). 

https://www.modernastronomy.com/shop/cameras/cooled-ccd/qhy-cooled-ccd-cameras/qhy268c-photo/

[billhinge]

Lol, that told me! thanks.

Typical I waited months for this camera before going down the Moravian route.  However has anyone actually had one delivered ? I was going  by the US dealer sites that say backordered or expanded lead time.  I  take website availability with a pinch of salt these days

https://optcorp.com/products/qhy-qhy268-pro-cooled-color-cmos-camera-aps-c-format for Pro version

Still I'm happy with my choice of KAF-8300 when it eventually arrives, 

[DaveS]

Also available Here.

*scratches head* If your location says Suffolk, why were you looking at US sites?

[billhinge]

I  had been looking  at modernastronomy site as a UK QHY dealer for months, no news of  the 268. However it was mentioned and discussed on US sites but going  back to 31st May it was on backorder everywhere.  (I posted  on page 2 of this thread). I also looked at the astrograph site and it must be a recent addition since I looked at several items on there over the last few weeks eg Baader BFFC and Flir cameras

European sites such as Baader and Primaluce also list it. In the end I ordered a Moravian G2-8300 instead since they were going  out of production plus I marginally preferred the images I'd seen it produce compared to the 268 (there weren't a lot of 268 images back in May either). My sky isn't always brilliant but it can be OK and I wanted an option to do narrowband

At the end of the day I don't mind ordering from Europe or even US if it is much cheaper after tax or unavailable in the UK and I was especially looking for the Pro version not the basic model advertised in the UK. The pro version is of similar price to what I paid for the Moravian kit so cost wasn't a consideration

I actually bought a 2" Altair Quadband filter just in case the 268 Pro became available, suppose I could use it with the new Flir colour camera instead (arriving tomorrow)

[Jkulin]

12 hours ago, carastro said:

Depressing thought if mono cameras are going to disappear.  I have no desire to use OSC even with fancy filters.

Carole 

I agree Carole, but not for now, I won’t say never, but I’m still exploring with mono CCD maybe on a travel rig it may have benefits, but I feel a long way to go yet.

[kirkster501]

On 27/08/2020 at 01:53, Jkulin said:

I agree Carole, but not for now, I won’t say never, but I’m still exploring with mono CCD maybe on a travel rig it may have benefits, but I feel a long way to go yet.

They are not disappearing.  There will be ASI 2600 and QHY268 mono versions later this year. 

I am not turning my back on mono either.  But the latest generation of colour, cooled, 16 bit, zero amp glow CMOS cameras like the QHY268C are spectacular.  I spoke to Ron Brecher last week about this - top bloke - and he is starting to collect his RGB with OSC now and adds the luminance from a mono camera.

Edited August 28, 2020 by kirkster501

[Jkulin]

2 hours ago, kirkster501 said:

....and he is starting to collect his RGB with OSC now and adds the luminance from a mono camera.

Indeed that would be a time saving option, just one thing though, with OSC how would you compensate for G2V which I have found very useful.

The only way I can see is to split the channels in PI then weight them accordingly in PixelMath?

[JamesF]

33 minutes ago, Jkulin said:

Indeed that would be a time saving option, just one thing though, with OSC how would you compensate for G2V which I have found very useful.

The only way I can see is to split the channels in PI then weight them accordingly in PixelMath?

Wouldn't that require quite clean separation of the colours in the colour filter array?  A lot of cameras seem to have a certain amount of crossover between colours (so red and green might still be sensitive to some blue, for instance).

James

[Jkulin]

44 minutes ago, JamesF said:

Wouldn't that require quite clean separation of the colours in the colour filter array?  A lot of cameras seem to have a certain amount of crossover between colours (so red and green might still be sensitive to some blue, for instance).

James

Yep James, I've not tried in PI apart from pulling a Lum.

[discardedastro]

I will add to this that Sony and TSMC have just announced a major new plant:

https://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2020/07/tsmc-builds-dedicated-28nm-fab-for-sony.html?m=1

Approx value of the new plant is £8 billion, will focus on CMOS image sensors (CIS) and is a dedicated fab purely for Sony's sensors, adding to Sony's other existing fabs and fab capacity agreements. 28nm is quite a large/old mode but still makes a lot of sense for image sensors (since you're working with big pixels anyway, so there's not huge gains in making the processing/amp electronics ultralow power etc). The fact that it's still widely used in sensors does rather suggest that cost of fabrication will remain pretty low for both mono and colour.

And Bayer filters don't tend to be terribly precise, no - they're necessarily quite simple constructions. If I was going to treat colour-as-mono I'd take flats from a spectrally known/well-characterised broadband source and use R/G/B filters in front of the sensor rather than treating R/G/B as 100% R/G/B. Using a known source spectra you could calibrate the different spectral bandpass, in the main, per pixel. May be overthinking that, but I think that's probably the way to go.

[smr]

On 25/08/2020 at 20:25, DaveS said:

Fuji GFX?

Canon fan boy

[AbsolutelyN]

Well not all OSC .... ZWO are unexpectedly releasing a ASI294MM - mono version of the 294MC. I was expecting a 2600MM so surprised with this one.

First review here:
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/726990-zwo-asi-294-mm-pro-first-impressions-and-test-images/ 

[CCD-Freak]

Since the ASI-294MC-Pro is soooo popular it is not a big surprise they came out with it first.  I hope the mono ASI-2600MM-Pro comes out soon....I will be all over that.  (^8

 

John Love
CCD-Freak
WD5IKX

[susan-parker]

Um, the amp-glow is an off-putter now we have sensors that don't have this issue; so still holding out until the QHY268M comes along!

[Thommy]

The ASI294MM would fit my needs perfectly (pixel size, sensor size etc.). But strange to see amp-glow, when ZWO already produce cameras without amp-glow.

ATIK has announced that they work on a new camera - any rumours?

/Thommy