The risks of second hand equiptment.

[Adam J]

I have recently had three incidents where myself or a friend have spent significant amounts of cash on used equipment and found the equipment to be faulty post purchase ~£3000 worth of gear in total. In each case it is clearly highly unlikely that the original owner was not aware of the issues associated with the equipment prior to sale and the issues could only be found in actual use as opposed to visual inspection. In each case all the appropriate questions where asked of the seller.

Prior to saying anything else I will say that none of these items where purchased via SGL. 

I have sold many items of astronomy gear used via the forums and have always been as meticulous as possible in describing their condition within my advertisement. I even once sold a guide scope despite declaring the extensive scratches to the lens. Someone still purchased it and was happy with it, that is how you should go about things.

So without naming any names, is this common? Have other people had similar experiences, have we been unlucky or should I just be buying all my kit new? What have you done when in this situation, did you try to return the equipment or suck it up and pay for it to be fixed?

Adam

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Adam J

[DaveL59]

That's unfortunate Adam and I guess I've just been lucky with my purchases this far since all has been used gear and acquired via the big auction site. Only had one pair of binoculars that had an issue as it reeked of mould when I opened the case and still don't smell great after cleaning them up with bleach and peroxide so they'll need a full strip down and run through the ultrasonic cleaner I think. Another couple had a chipped prism but were honestly described as such and I've been able to sort.

The scopes and eyepieces I have were all as described and the scopes collected in person with the option to walk away offered, but since optically they were good I wasn't worried by marks in the paint. After all with 15+ YO equipment you can't expect perfection and at the price I was looking to overhaul anyway  

It can be a lottery though but it does sound like you've had bad experiences. What sort of issues did you find, are they fixable without incurring major costs?

[tooth_dr]

I guess it depends on what you describe as faulty?  Is the fault subjective?

[Adam J]

On 10/03/2020 at 23:42, tooth_dr said:

I guess it depends on what you describe as faulty?  Is the fault subjective?

No, its not subjective. Stuff like clearly de-centered optics in a expensive triplet giving clearly bad stars and a mount with physical damage.

I would not be at all bothered by cosmetic issues.

 

Adam

Edited March 15, 2020 by Adam J

[don4l]

Were the items bought from a user, or from a third party?

Most people who are into astronomy take incredible care of their equipment.

The de-centred optics could be subjective, but the stripped bolts really sound like something that any user would know about.

I hope that your friend doesn't lose his interest in the hobby.

[DaveL59]

were the optics shipped or collected?

I went to collect the Tal100RS as I didn't want to risk damage in shipping and tbh the seller wasn't keen to ship for the same reasons. OK they can survive fine if well packed but there's always a risk of harsh handling and on gear that's out of production I chose not to risk it.

On the stripped thread, that's unfortunate but I found on one EQ5 that the bolts took a lot of effort and it was down to them seizing in place. Running a tap and die over the threads and then a dab of grease sorted mine, but if they've stripped then you could re-tap a size up and either helicoil or replace the bolt to suit. Easily said and assumes access to the equipment to do that of course.

[tooth_dr]

3 minutes ago, Adam J said:

No, its not subjective. Stuff like clearly de-centered optics in a expensive triplet giving clearly bad stars and stripped threads on a mount where bolts have been over tightened only found when trying to make an adjustment in use and the bolt just spins with no resistance.

I would not be at all bothered by cosmetic issues.

 

Adam

I suppose I was getting at star shapes - this I guess is subjective is it not?

Stripped threads are a different matter and clearly an indisputable fault.

I received horribly fungused Binoviewers once, seller said they didn’t check before dispatch, and weren’t aware! Er ok. Luckily I used PayPal buyer protection and got a refund.

 

 

[Adam J]

On 11/03/2020 at 00:05, DaveL59 said:

were the optics shipped or collected?

I went to collect the Tal100RS as I didn't want to risk damage in shipping and tbh the seller wasn't keen to ship for the same reasons. OK they can survive fine if well packed but there's always a risk of harsh handling and on gear that's out of production I chose not to risk it.

On the stripped thread, that's unfortunate but I found on one EQ5 that the bolts took a lot of effort and it was down to them seizing in place. Running a tap and die over the threads and then a dab of grease sorted mine, but if they've stripped then you could re-tap a size up and either helicoil or replace the bolt to suit. Easily said and assumes access to the equipment to do that of course.

He collected the scope in person.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Adam J

[Adam J]

2 minutes ago, tooth_dr said:

I suppose I was getting at star shapes - this I guess is subjective is it not?

See my comment above.

[Paz]

I've never had a problem with things bought through SGL.

On ABS I once bought an eyepiece that arrived in a very grungy condition and clearly not as described. In that case I cleaned it carefully and it was fundamentally in A1 condition so all was well.

I've had a second had mount described as used but it was in fact completely knackered. Luckily I got a refund.

That's 2 items out of a lot of items bought second hand (I'm not admitting in public how many). So I think in the round it has been worth it for me.

[DaveL59]

oh not good then if as you say the seller was well aware of the fault, if they won't play fair then you'd have to fall back on credit card/paypal protection if any. Does leave you wary of trying again tho for sure. A triplet isn't something you can sort yourself either, I expect and getting rectified will need a specialist and cost.

Edited March 11, 2020 by DaveL59

[tooth_dr]

15 minutes ago, Adam J said:

See my comment above.

Thats real bad knowingly selling it, at a premium price too, not reflecting the quality issues. I don’t think now after hearing all the stories about refractors would I buy an expensive used one. 

[Adam J]

On 11/03/2020 at 00:27, tooth_dr said:

Thats real bad knowingly selling it, at a premium price too, not reflecting the quality issues. I don’t think now after hearing all the stories about refractors would I buy an expensive used one. 

I think your reasonably safe with a doublet....its triplets, I see so many problems with them. I got my Esprit 100 new and had to swap it out, but even that was stressful, its allot of cash, even if the retailer was great about it.

In the end the mount can be fixed.

Adam

Edited March 15, 2020 by Adam J

[Ricochet]

On 11/03/2020 at 00:10, Adam J said:

He collected the scope in person.

Has your friend contacted the seller for a refund? When I was new to buying second hand astro gear I bought a few items that either were described as pristine but weren't, or that had flaws that in my opinion should have been clearly highlighted in the sale advert. Sometimes it takes a few weeks to find/confirm a fault and being new to second hand purchases with private sellers it feels a bit awkward going back to someone with an issue, so I didn't return some items that I should have. These days, having made that mistake before, if it isn't as described or is faulty, I'm going to demand my money back and I would advise everyone else to do the same. A faulty telescope should have been replaced under the original warranty, not sold on to the next unsuspecting user in the hope that they won't notice the fault or will to be too timid to query it.

[Skyline]

I'm too very meticulous about selling and buying astro gear, I really don't like buying equipment which has been not looked after.

I can remember buying an  ED refractor once and the owner stating the scope was in excellent condition prior to purchase.

Once received I noticed the owner had flocked the inside of the refractor and the baffles were held in place with the flocking material.

I only buy s/h scopes now, when I know the person who is selling them or from this forum.

@Adam J I wouldn't buy a triplet s/h after having a nasty experience buying a new AA115T.  Hence the reason I stuck with doublets, due to lack of confidence in buying triplets under the 2k mark.

 However I do fancy that StellaMira 85mm Triplet.

Because of dealing with @FLO for many years I trust them with my money, and any issues I have with the scope will be dealt quite fast.

Sticking with a honest dealership and buying their products certainly makes a difference. 

[noah4x4]

Two used items to buy only with extreme caution....

1. Celestron SkyPortal external WiFi accessory. 

First and second generation tend to have poor range and connectivity. Avoid any emitting a 'SkyQLink' signal. Third Generation are much better, but rarely for sale.

2. Celestron Starsense

These generally work fine. However, just occasionally, a user will unscrew the camera lens thinking it connects like a DSLR. This ruins focus and focus is then almost impossible restore without return to factory calibration. 

Note that warranties don't necessarily transfer to a second owner, but practice depends on manufacturer. 

 

[Timebandit]

 

 

I think a lot of the time it depends who you are buying from. There are "rogues" in all sorts of matters, and I suppose the astro community have these also. Which is a shame.

But I have purchased numerous equipment used. Probably 95% of my gear is second hand. But I have had some great buys. There is equipment such as my OOuk 14" and my OOuk 8" that I would of never purchased new. But second hand I managed to acquire top of the range equipment for a fraction of the new price. Buying used has allowed me to be in a great hobby with some top of the range equipment.

 

 

 

[tomato]

Buying a used optical instrument is always a bit of a gamble I guess, although folks advertising on SGL or other Astro related platforms must be aware that the equipment will (at some point) receive close scrutiny. 
 

I purchased a high end refractor via SGL classifieds (which was fine) but was reassured by the fact that the scope was still under the original manufacturer’s warranty. 
 

If I was spending serious money on a scope or mount I would want to see it before purchase and try it out if possible. I don’t think that’s too much to ask if you are spending £1000’s, you wouldn’t buy a used car without a test drive. If that can’t be accommodated, I would pass on by.

[John]

29 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

 

 

I think a lot of the time it depends who you are buying from. There are "rogues" in all sorts of matters, and I suppose the astro community have these also. Which is a shame.

But I have purchased numerous equipment used. Probably 95% of my gear is second hand. But I have had some great buys. There is equipment such as my OOuk 14" and my OOuk 8" that I would of never purchased new. But second hand I managed to acquire top of the range equipment for a fraction of the new price. Buying used has allowed me to be in a great hobby with some top of the range equipment.

 

 

 

Same situation here.

When I bought my 130mm triplet though it was from a seller that I knew and one whom I could visit, view the scope in person and transport it home myself.

As to whether sellers are aware of all the issues with their equipment, well I think that might vary depending on their experience and the nature of the deficiency. I have looked through scopes owned by others that have clearly been underperforming but they seemed quite happy with the views 

They were not trying to sell them though.

I also think there the definition of equipment condition is bound to vary slightly person to person. One persons "excellent condition" might be another persons "functional but well used". Most astronomers that I've met are pretty fastidious about their gear though so if anything are rather cautious about how they describe things.

 

 

 

[Tomatobro]

The question I ask myself is why is it being sold. If the seller puts forward a reasonable explanation then the sale is 80% there. But when I read the item is fabulous best ever mega brilliant etc then if its that good why does the seller want to part with it?

To a certain extent it also depends on individual circumstances.  I have gambled on "faulty not working" at a bargain price and  have been able to repair. But that is down to luck.

Talking of used equipment there is a 29 inch Dob for sale on Ebay . Buy collects......

Edited March 11, 2020 by Tomatobro

[Saganite]

45 minutes ago, Tomatobro said:

The question I ask myself is why is it being sold. If the seller puts forward a reasonable explanation then the sale is 80% there. But when I read the item is fabulous best ever mega brilliant etc then if its that good why does the seller want to part with it?

To a certain extent it also depends on individual circumstances.  I have gambled on "faulty not working" at a bargain price and  have been able to repair. But that is down to luck.

Talking of used equipment there is a 29 inch Dob for sale on Ebay . Buy collects......

I can think of two compelling ones.

I am currently selling a Tele Vue eyepiece which is one of the finest ever made, it is brilliant, and in extremely good condition, and for no other reason than just lack of use, preferring binoviewing for the last 7 years or so.

It is just too much money tied up without use.

I, like so many of our colleagues on this forum, just love buying and trying eyepieces. I still have too many and so I choose to sell when I want to fund something else.

I do agree that it is possible to be disappointed with the actual condition of a piece of kit against the description offered, but that has rarely happened to me, and certainly, never from anyone on this forum....

Edited March 11, 2020 by Saganite

[Saganite]

11 hours ago, Adam J said:

I have recently had three incidents where myself or a friend have spent significant amounts of cash on used equipment and found the equipment to be faulty post purchase ~£3000 worth of gear in total. In each case it is clearly highly unlikely that the original owner was not aware of the issues associated with the equipment prior to sale and the issues could only be found in actual use as opposed to visual inspection. In each case all the appropriate questions where asked of the seller.

Prior to saying anything else I will say that none of these items where purchased via SGL. 

I have sold many items of astronomy gear used via the forums and have always been as meticulous as possible in describing their condition within my advertisement. I even once sold a guide scope despite declaring the extensive scratches to the lens. Someone still purchased it and was happy with it, that is how you should go about things.

So without naming any names, is this common? Have other people had similar experiences, have we been unlucky or should I just be buying all my kit new? What have you done when in this situation, did you try to return the equipment or suck it up and pay for it to be fixed?

My friend is literally talking about quitting the hobby because of this.

Adam

 

 

 

 

Sorry to hear of your recent experience Adam, and that of your friend, 3k is a lot of money. It has not thus far happened to me, but I do know of one or two unfortunate similar occurrences. 

Have you contacted the sellers concerned ?

[Captain Scarlet]

Sorry to hear of your travails Adam.

I haven’t so far had any particularly bad experiences with SGL, or even with ebay, but I have been surprised by others’ attitudes when talking about it. I’ve concluded my half-Finnish upbringing has instilled into me a stronger sense of right and wrong than, for instance, some of my senior colleagues.

One such (very senior) colleague bought an expensive camera lens, £1,000 or thereabouts, on ebay. Shortly after that, he dropped it, cracking the front filter ring and slightly denting it. Discussing this, he said that he was going to simply hawk it back out on ebay. I said something like, “whilst ‘fessing up to the damage of course?”. His response was: no he wouldn’t mention it, as the damage wasn’t obvious at first glance. I was appalled.

Later, I was relating this to another (also very senior) colleague, my point being to highlight what I thought was very, er, poor behaviour. His response was also “what’s wrong with that?”. These were people that I regard as now having revealed part of their souls to me and I think of them very differently from how I had beforehand.

I guess you either have to know your seller, or look closely at any feedback there might be wherever you’re buying.

[AdeKing]

I have purchased the majority of my kit used and with the exception of a pair of binoculars that were knocked out of collimation in transit, I have not had a bad experience, but most of my purchases have been less than £300, so not in the same ballpark as the OP.

In the case of the binoculars, the seller paid for them to be recollimated by an optical engineer local to me without any hesitation, so although disappointed initially, everything was ok in the end and the seller couldn't have dealt with it better.

The majority of my kit has been purchased and sold via the SGL Classifieds, with some via ABS.

Where electronic kit with known problems is involved, the sellers I've dealt with have been happy for me to test everything to check I'm happy before parting with the full asking price, which is incredibly generous and is a testament to the community we have here at SGL.

[garryblueboy]

I too am like Steve I love buying & selling Astro equipment it is  so I can try out what suits me and my circumstances  and most on the used market or through the wanted adds  and like most the Astro gear was as described or better , it is always a gamble buying used equipment as is a used car 🚙 even after test drive and money is exchanged it can have faults 

I have enjoyed all bar one meeting so I guess over the last 25 years that’s not so bad and I have traveled as far as Italy to collect.  If there is a major problem with the triplet alignment I’m sure somebody such as ES Reid would be able to sort and then ask the seller to pay or chip in or refund the scope price