SW ED's Top end?

[mikeDnight]

There's a lot of debate over the value and performance of high end refractors, and how they compare. Somehow though, it seems the SW ED's may be getting overlooked when high end refractors are being considered, viewed by some perhaps as being a poor man's apo. But is that true?

My first experience with an apochromatic refractor was on the 3rd January 2003. Some kind gentleman had donated a 102mm Vixen fluorite refractor, complete with GP mount and pier, 60mm guide scope, motor drives and eyepieces to my local astro club. It was beautiful! When i arrived at the observatory, everyone excitedly showed me this beautiful scope set up on the field along side a 100mm Tal refractor and a 150mm Helios refractor. The trio looked amazing alongside eachother! Saturn was low in the east and looked virtually identical in all three scopes. I openly expressed my confidence that when Saturn rises to 30° the 150mm will give the more detailed view due to its aperture and resolution, and that no matter how good the 102 fluorite was, it would be left standing. 

Lesson 1)  The 102mm fluorite kicked the living daylights out of not only the 100mm Tal and the 150mm Helios, but also every other scope on the field no matter what the aperture or design. Saturn through the Vixen looked as though it was being viewed through a space ship window, and the rings were so detailed they gave the impression of having grooves like those on a vinyl record. That night apertures King had just been dethroned!  I drove home from the observatory in the early hours of the following morning, wondering how on earth I'm going to find a spare £2,200.00 to buy myself one of these amazing scopes?

Lesson 2) Cutting a long story short, I never did get my hands on a Vixen fluorite, as the then sole UK importer was a pretty useless character. Instead, three months after my first encounter with the Vixen FL102 I ended up buying a Takahashi FS128 for considerably more than the cost of the Vixen. It was not only a beautiful scope to look at and to look through, it was big physically, which meant I needed a bigger mount and more expense. Then my friend Gain introduced me to Naglers. More expense! Buying a top end scope is only the beginning of the poverty spiral!

Lesson 3) Years went by and the FS128 never failed to impress. Was it worth the financial pain? For me it was, as I loved every minute under the stars with that scope Then came a proposition! I was offered a Tak FS152 in exchange for my FS128 + £1000. I thought this would be a once in a lifetime chance to own a £10,000.00 Tak, which is what it would have cost had I bought it brand new. I couldn't turn the opportunity down and I became the owner of a superlative 152mm Tak fluorite. Then came further expense,  as the Losmandy GM8 that carried my FS128 was woefully inadequate when it came to carrying my FS152. A new mount was needed and I bought a Losmandy G11. ( I must have the most understanding wife on the planet)! Initially I was thrilled with my acquisition, but very soon I noticed my observing had taken a hit. I was looking for excuses not to observe as setting this heavy beast up, and more importantly dismantling everything and carrying it all back in when tired and frozen, was taking the joy out of the hobby. I missed my FS128, but it had now been sold on to someone in Germany. One night while setting the 152 up on its mount, my back gave way and I slid down the pier in agony while desperately holding on to £10,000 worth of tube assembly. At least thats what it would have cost had it needed to be replaced. It was an expensive lesson and i soon came to realise that bigger isnt always better!

Lesson 4) Don't believe everything you read, especially if its a top end scope manufacturer trying to sell his product. "It Is What You Want It To Be"!  Or at least that is what TeleVue wanted me to believe about their NP101. I read and re-read that advert in Sky & Telescope until I'd convinced myself a small, easy to handle apo was just what I needed. I sold the FS152 and the Losmandy G11 in very short time and bought everything TeleVue.  The 101 when it arrived was a lovely looking scope, and the armoury of Naglers, powermates and Ethos - Ethos's- Ethi, or whatever, were mouth watering. The scopes rich field and deep sky prowess was undeniable and to date I feel the 101 is the best rich field refractor I've ever used. But it made me work hard on the planet's, and when on one night my friends F6.5 Vixen ED gave a far better defined view of Saturn, I knew the NP101's days were numbered, after all the NP101 cost nearly as much as my superlative FS128 and was thrashed by an old Vixen ED costing a fraction of the price.

Lesson 5) ENTER THE DRAGON!   A year after buying the NP101 I sold it on, but things were brought to a head after a side by side showdown with a cheaper Chinese ED. Cheaper in cost only I hasten to add! My friend Paul had managed to get hold of an ex display gold and cream SW 120 ED. One look at the moon through both scopes was enough. Had I not known in advance that it was a SW ED I was looking through, I swear I would have thought it was a Tak! There was essentially zero CA, the moon was almost ice white which was something I loved about the fluorite view through the Tak's and Vixens. By comparison the NP101 gave a rather nicotine view of the moon and it had to go. The SW ED was really something special, and as Tak and Vixen had stopped producing fluorite refractors at this time, I knew I couldn't live without a SW ED. The 101 was sold within 48hrs and in only a couple of days I had my first SW ED120. The only regret I have is that I've wasted thousands of pounds to get to this point. Ive owned five SW ED's -  one DS Pro 120 ED, two Equinox 120 ED's, one DS Pro 100 ED and a fab little Equinox 80 ED. All were stunningly good scopes! 

Lesson 6) Over the years I learned that the more portable and user friendly a scope is the more I'll observe with it. Oddly, I found myself using the Equinox 80 ED more and more as time went by, as I was able to carry it out with one hand, it cooled fast and with a binoviewer it gave superb views of the Moon and Jupiter. I'd go out for just a five minute session before bed and often find myself still sat there at the eyepiece of the 80mm an hour later. I really began to appreciate the portability aspect more and more. When my friend Paul told me Takahashi had begun making Fluorite refractors again I was intrigued. Then one night he phoned me to say he'd ordered one, so I thought if he's having one then so am I. So I put everything I had up for sale and the money came rolling in. Then I got a call from Paul, asking what on earth I was selling all my gear for? I told him that if he's having a Tak then I'm having a Tak! The phone went silent for a while - then he said "I was only kidding just to see how you'd react"! Then he cracked up laughing. What a Git! Still, the 100mm F7.4 Tak has turned out to be virtually everything I loved about all the various refractors I've owned all in one package, so nothing was lost in the venture. 

Lesson 7) Don't trust paulastro!! 

 

[mark81]

Great read.  I can't really add any worthwhile comments as I've never owned an APO, but I have spent many hours thinking and reading about them.  I will certainly be reading this a few times over. Thanks

[domstar]

Fascinating. A real education- a great read and a great journey.

[mikeDnight]

12 minutes ago, mark81 said:

Great read.  I can't really add any worthwhile comments as I've never owned an APO, but I have spent many hours thinking and reading about them.  I will certainly be reading this a few times over. Thanks

Lesson 8).  Avoid reading anything about apo's. It's fatal! 

[Alan White]

Nice post Mike, and probably has a resonance with many of us.
The bit about the cost of the journey, well I have taken a far lighter journey than yourself and I am coming to similar conclusions all the same.

I love my Vixen ED103s and the image it presents.
I have strived for ages to get a 10" OOUK Dobsonian and I got one this year, its blown my socks off
with the brightness of faint objects, but and its a big BUT, it gets used far less often, it is no more hassle to set up,
BUT it needs cooling time to shine, the refractor does not.

At a dark sky session with a couple of club mates at the start of December,
I was asked by one @NGC 1502 on here, would I part with the Vixen or the 10",
after only a few seconds thought I said, the 10" would go the ED103 would be the 'one scope'.
It's good allrounder and is easy to own.

What you said about SW ED models is true, I have owned the ED100 and ED80,
both very fine scopes, but moved on during my journey, somehow I wish I still had them, but with better focusers. 
The optics stand with all other fine scopes in my view too.

I do wonder though if you Tak owners have it right though, small, light scope, good build and exceptional optics,
darn it I have just fed my 'want monster' unwittingly while writing this........
 

[Alan White]

2 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

Lesson 8).  Avoid reading anything about apo's. It's fatal! 

Now he says it!!

[mikeDnight]

8 minutes ago, Alan White said:

Nice post Mike, and probably has a resonance with many of us.
The bit about the cost of the journey, well I have taken a far lighter journey than yourself and I am coming to similar conclusions all the same.

I love my Vixen ED103s and the image it presents.
I have strived for ages to get a 10" OOUK Dobsonian and got one this year, its blown my socks off with the brightness of faint objects, but and its a big but,
It get used far less often it is no more hassle to set up, but it needs cooling time to shine, the refractor does not.

At a dark sky session with a couple of club mates at the start of December, I was asked by one @NGC 1502 on here, would I part with the Vixen or the 10",
After only a few seconds thought I said, the 10 would go the 103 would be the one scope if needs be,its good allrounder and is easy to own.

What you said about SW ED models is true, I have owned the ED100 and ED80, both very fine scopes, but moved one during my journey,
wish I still had them, but with better focusers.  The optics stand with all other fine copes in my view too.

I do wonder though if you Tak owners have it right though, small, light scope, good build and exceptional optics,
darn it I have just fed my 'want monster' unwittingly while writing this........



 

I wonder if you'd notice any appreciable improvement over your 103 ED Alan? You may already have the scope you need, then after selling it you'll then need to convince yourself it was the right move. It's a slippery slope!

[Ben the Ignorant]

I also remember the first look I had through a VIxen 102 f/9 fluorite doublet. It was in a long corridor in the university that sponsors the astronomy club. We had set up an artificial star at one end and the scope at the other. I don't remember the eyepiece but I do recall the view. The airy disk was a perfect cookie-cutter white aspirin, and the diffraction ring was just as perfect, both looked like they were synthetic drawings on a computer screen, they were that perfect.

Normally things look organic but this seemed artificial because it was so ideal. I still see the image in my mind now. The doublet did show lime green/purple colors outside and inside of focus but none at all in focus. The guy who owned the Vixen lent it to the club for years, I don't know how he could not worry about leaving that gem to other people and other places. On the field the scope gave clean views of everything but the most telling sight about its quality was in the corridor with no turbulence.

Could be the view might be improved with a dielectric diagonal and modern eyepieces, I'm not sure what those accessories were when we did that memorable artificial star test.

Also, a friend left his Tele Vue 101 at my home to have the focuser adjusted and the optics evaluated. Putting the same diagonal in both, my TS 80/480 triplet outresolved it on distant towers and birds, and that was before I suppressed its 77.3mm baffle! The 101's star test was totally white on both sides, top-notch  correction, but the rings were not as defined, and real-target performance confirmed it. The details in the small triplet proved just a shade finer.

What a flat-field refractor gains in flatness at the edge is lost in sharpness at the center, that's why high-end triplets from TEC, Astro-Physics and Takahashi never have an internal flattener, only an optional one.

When I read Cloudy Nights I always keep the refractors for last, and I used to keep an eye on the pricing of all manners of telescopes, but now only apos get that attention. Arrrgggghhh! I'm hooked! 

[Guest]

Can I suggest that you write a book about you equipment and observing experiences. I was rivited.

I have a gold ed 120.

Thanks. 

[Rob]

What a great read that was. And certainly very similar story for me (different scopes & apertures) , and I sure for many of us on here.

2018 has been the year of the small ED for me. I too have loved the grab n go ease. I also have on/off back issues, so the pleasure of having both a monster rig & portable rig allows the choice and ease to keep the hobby alive.

I do want a tak, and have wanted one for 10 years plus now. I think to be fair its going to end to be a SW ED to settle with

Rob

[Alan White]

32 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

I wonder if you'd notice any appreciable improvement over your 103 ED Alan? You may already have the scope you need, then after selling it you'll then need to convince yourself it was the right move. It's a slippery slope!

I have to say Mike, you mirror my thoughts on that.
Sometimes the grass just looks greener when it's not.
I have no plans to move the Vixen on anyways.
 

[John]

Very enjoyable read Mike - thanks for posting this little Xmas gift

It's only in the past couple of years that I've been able to acquire and use a couple of refractors that fall into the top end niche and they have not dissapointed at all. A slightly unexpected side effect has been that the optics in my Skywatcher ED120 (old gold tube like Grumpy's) have been shown to be really top notch as well. I thought they very good were but had not had anything to compare them with !

I appreciated your advice a couple of years back which helped me decide to go for a Tak FC-100.

Lesson 9: Don't ask Mike if buying a Tak is a good idea !

 

[Stu]

I think I can safely thank, or blame Mike for my Tak FC100DC ownership

I've been through a similar journey, plenty of small apo refractors, a 106mm triplet and a couple of 120EDs, all great fun and giving lovely images.

The Tak combines all the best bits in one package. Performance that rivals the 120ED under most conditions, fluorite contrast, great planetary performance aswell as wonderful widefield views in a package that will sit comfortably on a lightweight mount and will just about squeeze on a plane. What more could you want?

Thank you Mike!

[ollypenrice]

Very enjoyable read and one which reminds us that telescopes are personal things. The eye is now considered by many in neuroscience to be best considered as part of the brain so you can't get more personal than that. Arguments about aperture, limiting magnitudes, spot sizes etc etc are fine as far as they go but light goes straight from the ocular into your own very personal brain. There is just something about the Apo view which does it for me. My favourite - though there are many I haven't tried - is our TEC140.

Olly

[Astro Imp]

Thank you for taking the trouble to write such an enjoyable, interesting and educational post.
I found reading this very useful as I am in the position to consider acquiring my first refractor and will be asking forum members for advice in the coming days.

[MartinB]

Thanks Mike of a very enjoyable and honest post.  I too have one of the gold SW 120 along with the old single speed focuser and love it to bits!  

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, John said:

Very enjoyable read Mike - thanks for posting this little Xmas gift

It's only in the past couple of years that I've been able to acquire and use a couple of refractors that fall into the top end niche and they have not dissapointed at all. A slightly unexpected side effect has been that the optics in my Skywatcher ED120 (old gold tube like Grumpy's) have been shown to be really top notch as well. I thought they very good were but had not had anything to compare them with !

I appreciated your advice a couple of years back which helped me decide to go for a Tak FC-100.

Lesson 9: Don't ask Mike if buying a Tak is a good idea !

 

 

1 hour ago, Stu said:

I think I can safely thank, or blame Mike for my Tak FC100DC ownership

I've been through a similar journey, plenty of small apo refractors, a 106mm triplet and a couple of 120EDs, all great fun and giving lovely images.

The Tak combines all the best bits in one package. Performance that rivals the 120ED under most conditions, fluorite contrast, great planetary performance aswell as wonderful widefield views in a package that will sit comfortably on a lightweight mount and will just about squeeze on a plane. What more could you want?

Thank you Mike!

I'm just thankful you guy's love your scopes, or it could end with the entire SGL family trying to get their money back on Judge Rinder! 

[rhw1967]

Really enjoyed reading this, and the comments, many thanks to all.

Am new to Apo Refractors, and have to admit as I get older looking for a more portable scope than my huge DOB. I have an SCT too but more and more have found myself looking at and researching good Refractors. I sense a trade in coming haha.

Cheers again for the great read ?

[F15Rules]

2 hours ago, Alan White said:

I have to say Mike, you mirror my thoughts on that.
Sometimes the grass just looks greener when it's not.
I have no plans to move the Vixen on anyways.
 

Alan,

Mike is right IMHO. As you know, I am lucky enough to  have both an FS128 and a Vixen ED103s, and unless you want to move up to 5" aperture I doubt you will see any visible difference between the Tak 100mm fluorite doublet and the Vixen. - unless you get a once-in-a-blue-moon nights in perfect seeing.

And, as so often is the case, the step up, from 4" to 5", in the cost of high end refractors, is very considerable - perhaps to a point that might not seem worthwhile for the type of observing you want to do?

If I had to choose (and I may have to at some point when I'm no longer earning a wage but relying on a pension!) between my FS128 and ED103s scopes, I would keep the Tak as I have long felt that it gets closer to being my one-size-does-everything all round scope than any other I have owned..but that might be different in 10 years time as advancing age takes it's toll and perhaps portability becomes the main consideration?

I urge you to think long and hard, if you are ever tempted, before letting that Vixen go, Alan!☺?.

Dave

 

[KP82]

3 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Lesson 6) Over the years I learned that the more portable and user friendly a scope is the more I'll observe with it. Oddly, I found myself using the Equinox 80 ED more and more as time went by, as I was able to carry it out with one hand, it cooled fast and with a binoviewer it gave superb views of the Moon and Jupiter. I'd go out for just a five minute session before bed and often find myself still sat there at the eyepiece of the 80mm an hour later. I really began to appreciate the portability aspect more and more.

Very true.  Even though my experience with different scopes is very limited, I agree with your view on portability/user friendliness completely.

I've been looking to upgrade my 4" apo to a 5" for the last few weeks. After trying out an ES ED127 which had been returned due to QC issue, I found I was just uncomfortable with its size (the weight was manageable, but not the length). Now my dream scopes are either the APM/LZOS 123/738 or 130/780 but both are currently out of my budget, so I'll have to stick to my APM 107 for now.

[Ben the Ignorant]

1 hour ago, F15Rules said:

the step up, from 4" to 5", in the cost of high end refractors, is very considerable

 

1 hour ago, KP82 said:

my dream scopes are either the APM/LZOS 123/738 or 130/780 but both are currently out of my budget

Vixen produces a very lightweight in-between 115mm doublet; they ask 2,660€ for it. Its former version produced this star test (from Telescope Doctor's website):

Both disks have very nearly identical brightness and sharpness in their rings, and only some pale color but it's uniform across each disk, barely different from a top-notch triplet. 

The older version is still available for a couple hundred euros more, maybe because the newer one is better suited for large sensor imaging while the former is optimized for planetary detail at the center of the field?

[KP82]

2 minutes ago, Ben the Ignorant said:

 

Vixen produces a very lightweight in-between 115mm doublet; they ask 2,660€ for it. Its former version produced this star test (from Telescope Doctor's website):

Both disks have identical brightness and sharpness in their rings, and only some pale color but it's uniform across each disk, barely different than a top-notch triplet. 

The older version is still available for a couple hundred euros more, maybe because the newer one is better suited for large sensor imaging while the former is optimized for planetary detail at the center of the field?

Thanks for the suggestion.

The problems with Vixen SD115S compared to my current APM 107 are its length (non-retractable dew shield), less robust single speed focuser (the optional 1:10 pinion costs quite a bit. My APM has a solid 3" focuser that can take up to 6kg payload), more expensive reducer/flattener and only marginal increase of aperture (8mm) for visual but considerably more expensive (£500 difference). Though being one of the best ED doublets on the market, I'm sure the difference compared to a triplet would only show up in certain types of imaging and its performance for visual would virtually be identical (probably even more contrasty due to less glass).

[F15Rules]

15 minutes ago, Ben the Ignorant said:

Vixen produces a very lightweight in-between 115mm doublet

Yes, I saw one of these for sale about 5 years ago on UKABS for £900..A real bargain, but at the time it was just not financially possible for me. If it matches it's 103mm and 81mm smaller siblings it will be a wonderful scope -and lightweight too..?

Dave

[Moonshane]

Brilliant Mike. Having met you and after a great chat, I can hear your personality all through your post ?

I cannot justify a 100mm currently given I enjoy my other scopes so much, but if ever a used 128mm Tak came on the scene for sale I'd have some serious soul searching to perform. 

[Timebandit]

 

Nice read Mike ?

 

Always great to read about other peoples experience of their travels through their scope history.  

You have been through some top quality optics Mike , that have cost a small fortune. And to put the SW ED scope range in with these type of scopes with such great results, is praise indeed. A man who has been their and seen it . 

I think the lesson that can be learned from Mike's experience. Is if you want a top draw Apo , but on a budget then the SW ED range is going to give you quality optics without breaking the bank. That is my experience with my SW 120ed , such quality at modest cost ?