SW ED's Top end?

[Stu]

31 minutes ago, jetstream said:

Another rumor is just how good the TEC160FL is, possibly the top of the top?

Having looked through Gavin's I would say it wasn't bad ??????

Amazing scope, the combination of optical quality, relatively compact and lightweight OTA and aperture make it right up there I'm sure. I've said before, but the views of E & F stars in the trap through this scope were the best I've ever seen.

[mikeDnight]

3 hours ago, jetstream said:

There are vicious rumors out there that the TOA130 has better optics than the TSA120.....in a heavier package.

Some years back after I'd sold my FS128 and bought  FS152, then very quickly regretted the move. I contacted the then sole Takahashi importer into the UK - a man who I trust completely when it comes to Tak ware - to buy a TOA 130. I had the money back then and I desperately wanted my 5" Tak back. He told me " Honestly Mike, the TOA is not as good as the FS128"! He talked me out of buying one despite the financial gain before him. He was convinced I wouldn't like it!  That was back when the TOA was first introduced and the TSA120 had not yet come onto the market. Since then though, the TAO  has undergone an optical transformation, or so I've been informed. The early ones had orange lettering on the lens cell while the revamped optics model I think has white lettering on the cell. The latter uses superior glass types I believe!  I've not looked through either model of the TOA, but if the latter is on par with the amazing TSA,  then it will be an impressive scope. I wouldn't welcome the weight though, as it would cause me to need a much larger mount, where as my Vixen GP will carry a TSA120 quite comfortably. The TSA 120 would be my preferred choice out of the two!

[jetstream]

9 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

Some years back after I'd sold my FS128 and bought  FS152, then very quickly regretted the move. I contacted the then sole Takahashi importer into the UK - a man who I trust completely when it comes to Tak ware - to buy a TOA 130. I had the money back then and I desperately wanted my 5" Tak back. He told me " Honestly Mike, the TOA is not as good as the FS128"! He talked me out of buying one despite the financial gain before him. He was convinced I wouldn't like it!  That was back when the TOA was first introduced and the TSA120 had not yet come onto the market. Since then though, the TAO  has undergone an optical transformation, or so I've been informed. The early ones had orange lettering on the lens cell while the revamped optics model I think has white lettering on the cell. The latter uses superior glass types I believe!  I've not looked through either model of the TOA, but if the latter is on par with the amazing TSA,  then it will be an impressive scope. I wouldn't welcome the weight though, as it would cause me to need a much larger mount, where as my Vixen GP will carry a TSA120 quite comfortably. The TSA 120 would be my preferred choice out of the two!

When researching these scopes I found a bit of TOA130 opinion differences....while the TSA120 shared all the same opinion... not knowing anything about Taks I played it safe and bought the 120. There is no holy grail of telescopes but this one does everything I want- including semi widefield nebula observing, where it edges the hard to beat SW120ED on this stuff. If there is a hindrance with these scopes it is the limited selection of low power eyepieces ie the 42mm LVW, while good, I feel there is more to be had EP wise.

An advantage to my 200mm f3.8 newt is the EP selection ie the 20 mm APM HDC and the Nikon 17mm/14mm HW. If  better eyepieces were available in lower FL's for these fracs they would perform to their potential on very faint large objects.

BTW- the TSA 120, with the 2nd place 42mm LVW is rivaling (or beating) that 200mm f3.8 newt with better EPs....

I can offer no scientific test methods and their results but only an opinion on objects observed hundreds if not thousands of times with reasonably good eyes.

[mikeDnight]

3 hours ago, barkis said:

How would the  analysis of these telescopes by those here comparing them, stand up against any official reviews of the instruments discussed here.

This is fascinating to read, and the practical comparisons made, would certainly give food for thought to anyone considering the purchase of the units discussed in this thread.

Just curiosity on my part, as  I've not ever used any of them myself. My only Apos. are an Ed80, and a WO zs 66.?

For me the real proof of a scopes worth is found in its prolonged use, not so much in reviews. I've not had the chance to use all the different apo's mentioned on this thread, but I have used several Takahashi refractors, a couple of TMB, several Vixen, Two AstroPhysics, Two WO and several TeleVue. Ive also owned and used several SW ED refractors and I loved them all! Though all are nice, each has its special something that gives it that personal appeal. It would be a real shame if someone reading this thread should become unhappy with their Sky Watcher ED based on the passionate discussions we've been having so far. The SW ED' are genuinely excellent, especially for visual, and can keep up with the best when it comes to delivering jaw dropping views. Only on the best nights do the differences become obvious. I wouldn't go into debt for a Tak or any other apo costing thousands when the SW ED's are so close in performance, but I wouldn't criticise anyone who starts an APO FUND to get the scope of his desires. 

[GavStar]

4 hours ago, Stu said:

Having looked through Gavin's I would say it wasn't bad ??????

Amazing scope, the combination of optical quality, relatively compact and lightweight OTA and aperture make it right up there I'm sure. I've said before, but the views of E & F stars in the trap through this scope were the best I've ever seen.

Yes I’m very happy indeed with the TEC160FL. On the moon looking at Plato’s craterlets it comfortably beat my AP130GTX by resolving at least 10 compared to the 4 I saw with the AP. And E and F were rather nice that evening in your back garden ?

I wouldn’t want a larger refractor - I think a 180mm would be too much for my liking particularly given the longer moment arm and the extra mounting requirements. As it is I find the eyepiece height does vary noticeably depending on the altitude of the object I am looking at. Also if I am looking at high objects then I need to use a pier extension and lifting an expensive 12kg scope into the clamp at shoulder height does require care. The AP beats it in this respect and is a very comfortable scope to mount and use. But the TEC views are better and the TEC would be my choice if I had to sell one.

I’ve had a range of focal length refractors from an f9 Tak to an f5.9 Baader. My personal preference is to go for faster ratio scopes (f7 and lower) and get more aperture to keep the weight down and the moment arm shorter.

I’d love to get the TEC side by side with Gerry’s TSA120 and John’s 130 LZOS. ?

 

[John]

I'm sure that the TEC160 is a superb instrument but it costs around £10K I think ?

My 12" dob has shown me 11 Plato craterlets on a good night. That cost me less than £500 !

 

[jetstream]

4 hours ago, GavStar said:

I’d love to get the TEC side by side with Gerry’s TSA120 and John’s 130 LZOS. ?

I would love just to get a view through scopes like this Gavin, your TEC 160 is a dream scope and LZOS is legendary. For some reason AP never truly appealed to me eventhough they are some of the best optics made. I emailed TEC about a 140FL but never received a reply so I scratched that one off the dance card, it would have been a nice scope.

[barkis]

15 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

For me the real proof of a scopes worth is found in its prolonged use, not so much in reviews. I've not had the chance to use all the different apo's mentioned on this thread, but I have used several Takahashi refractors, a couple of TMB, several Vixen, Two AstroPhysics, Two WO and several TeleVue. Ive also owned and used several SW ED refractors and I loved them all! Though all are nice, each has its special something that gives it that personal appeal. It would be a real shame if someone reading this thread should become unhappy with their Sky Watcher ED based on the passionate discussions we've been having so far. The SW ED' are genuinely excellent, especially for visual, and can keep up with the best when it comes to delivering jaw dropping views. Only on the best nights do the differences become obvious. I wouldn't go into debt for a Tak or any other apo costing thousands when the SW ED's are so close in performance, but I wouldn't criticise anyone who starts an APO FUND to get the scope of his desires. 

I fully understand what you say Mike, and the whole thread makes good reading, especially for anyone contemplating 
investing in any of the very high end instruments. I probably had little justification for my post really, other than 
curiosity.  My optical arsenal is  modest, but I do enjoy them to the full, and I get great satisfaction from them.

 

[GavStar]

17 hours ago, jetstream said:

I would love just to get a view through scopes like this Gavin, your TEC 160 is a dream scope and LZOS is legendary. For some reason AP never truly appealed to me eventhough they are some of the best optics made. I emailed TEC about a 140FL but never received a reply so I scratched that one off the dance card, it would have been a nice scope.

A shame that TEC never responded to you Gerry. Unfortunately I’ve heard reports that this has happened before. For both my TEC and AP scopes I bought through authorised dealers. The dealers get prompt responses from AP and TEC and I get prompt responses from the dealers so this approach worked well for me.

[jetstream]

2 hours ago, GavStar said:

A shame that TEC never responded to you Gerry. Unfortunately I’ve heard reports that this has happened before. For both my TEC and AP scopes I bought through authorised dealers. The dealers get prompt responses from AP and TEC and I get prompt responses from the dealers so this approach worked well for me.

I did check out that dealer in Europe for the AP but I couldn't pass this TSA120 up. Had a TEC140FL been available in a reasonable amount of time I might have tried one of those. As it is this TSA120 has turned out very well.

On the point of SW120ED's, the very fact that this scope is being compared to these others is a testament to its VG optics. Mine was the first to show me Barnards Loop and shows part of it with no filter. This scope does it all- from great lunar, planetary to DSO it's right up there. 2 dust lanes in M31, no problem, M101 easy, great on M81 & M82.... and then there is Saturn

One thing- my Baader prism diag isn't perfectly matched to this scope IMHO, mine likes a mirror diag.

Any of these scopes mentioned in this thread need VG skies not only to work well but show up major differences. The aperture of the 160mm will naturally show more fine detail than the others regardless of mag IMHO and therefore just might be less affected by seeing on lunar in particular (in context of low mag lunar viewing,still showing great detail). The effect might be similar to my very low power binoviewing with my 15" on the moon- its stunning as well.

[Alan White]

On 28/12/2018 at 16:03, F15Rules said:

Alan,

Mike is right IMHO. As you know, I am lucky enough to  have both an FS128 and a Vixen ED103s, and unless you want to move up to 5" aperture I doubt you will see any visible difference between the Tak 100mm fluorite doublet and the Vixen. - unless you get a once-in-a-blue-moon nights in perfect seeing.

And, as so often is the case, the step up, from 4" to 5", in the cost of high end refractors, is very considerable - perhaps to a point that might not seem worthwhile for the type of observing you want to do?

If I had to choose (and I may have to at some point when I'm no longer earning a wage but relying on a pension!) between my FS128 and ED103s scopes, I would keep the Tak as I have long felt that it gets closer to being my one-size-does-everything all round scope than any other I have owned..but that might be different in 10 years time as advancing age takes it's toll and perhaps portability becomes the main consideration?

I urge you to think long and hard, if you are ever tempted, before letting that Vixen go, Alan!☺?.

Dave

 

Thanks for the wise words Dave, but fear not Dave, fear not.
The Vixen ED103s is not shifting anytime soon or perhaps ever.

I have sold 3 scopes in the past 6 months and never been tempted to shift the Vixen.
What I am tempted to do, is only keep and run the Vixen as the sole scope.

 

[FLO]

On 28/12/2018 at 12:33, mikeDnight said:

There's a lot of debate over the value and performance of high end refractors, and how they compare. Somehow though, it seems the SW ED's may be getting overlooked when high end refractors are being considered, viewed by some perhaps as being a poor man's apo. But is that true?

I salute you, sir ?

Steve

[Louis D]

On 28/12/2018 at 06:33, mikeDnight said:

Lesson 1)  The 102mm fluorite kicked the living daylights out of not only the 100mm Tal and the 150mm Helios, but also every other scope on the field no matter what the aperture or design. Saturn through the Vixen looked as though it was being viewed through a space ship window, and the rings were so detailed they gave the impression of having grooves like those on a vinyl record. That night apertures King had just been dethroned!  I drove home from the observatory in the early hours of the following morning, wondering how on earth I'm going to find a spare £2,200.00 to buy myself one of these amazing scopes?

Perhaps this has something to do with UK skies?   In Texas, 12" and up Dobs equipped with premium hand figured mirrors from Zambuto, Swayze, etc. have always blown away any 4" to 6" APO refractor views of planets at star parties I've attended.  This included Taks, TECs, APs, etc.  There is simply no substitute for aperture when it comes to pulling fine details out of planetary views under steady skies.  If you're going to spend $10k+ on a scope and mount, I'd probably go the large premium Dob route at least here in Texas.  That, and we have the large trucks and wide roads to haul them around.

[John]

Meanwhile, back at the Skywatcher ED's .......

 

[Victor Boesen]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

Perhaps this has something to do with UK skies?   In Texas, 12" and up Dobs equipped with premium hand figured mirrors from Zambuto, Swayze, etc. have always blown away any 4" to 6" APO refractor views of planets at star parties I've attended.  This included Taks, TECs, APs, etc.  There is simply no substitute for aperture when it comes to pulling fine details out of planetary views under steady skies.  If you're going to spend $10k+ on a scope and mount, I'd probably go the large premium Dob route at least here in Texas.  That, and we have the large trucks and wide roads to haul them around.

But then, what's cheaper? Moving to Texas or buying a small but high quality frac? I do agree with you point and sometimes I really wish my 10" dob would deliver the same sharp image every night as it did one perfect night on Saturn this summer. This topic really catches my interest since a small ED/APO frac could be able to deliver a more stable view than the dob can in the worst conditions.

Victor

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Victor Boesen said:

But then, what's cheaper? Moving to Texas or buying a small but high quality frac? I do agree with you point and sometimes I really wish my 10" dob would deliver the same sharp image every night as it did one perfect night on Saturn this summer. This topic really catches my interest since a small ED/APO frac could be able to deliver a more stable view than the dob can in the worst conditions.

Victor

And unfortunately, much of Europe has worse seeing conditions than Texas which is probably the big difference.  We're also quite a bit further south which helps to elevate the planets.  Your seeing conditions are probably on par with the northeastern US where I lived for a few years.  Days would go by with nothing but clouds and rain.  When it was clear, light and air pollution greatly reduced the quality of the skies.  Then there was the problem of the jetstream being overhead much of the time since we were fairly far north.  Not being satisfied with Texas skies, I'm looking for a second home in the mountains of southeastern New Mexico which are far darker and drier than most of Texas (far west Texas excepted).

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

And unfortunately, much of Europe has worse seeing conditions than Texas which is probably the big difference.  We're also quite a bit further south which helps to elevate the planets.  Your seeing conditions are probably on par with the northeastern US where I lived for a few years.  Days would go by with nothing but clouds and rain.  When it was clear, light and air pollution greatly reduced the quality of the skies.  Then there was the problem of the jetstream being overhead much of the time since we were fairly far north.  Not being satisfied with Texas skies, I'm looking for a second home in the mountains of southeastern New Mexico which are far darker and drier than most of Texas (far west Texas excepted).

You're right Louis! The UK gets all the moisture from the warm air crossing the Atlantic and gets battered by the elements from every side. Then there's the Jet Stream that weaves about over our skies; plus all the man made  vapour trails resulting from all those British astronomers flying off to the Texas Star Party and the like. And they fly right over my house!  That's almost certainly why refractors are so effective here and seem to cut through the seeing. I did once see an old 1980's Celestron SCT give the most stunning view of Jupiter I've ever seen through a scope, but it only did it once. A scope like the SW 120ED on the other hand  will give great views on nearly every steady night, so in that sense its the better choice, as so amazingly sharp and contrasty, offering great definition. When the Icelandic volcanic eruption occurred a few years ago and the planes were grounded, the planetary views of Jupiter improved massively. At the time I was using a Skywatcher Equinox 120ED.  It was a truly superb performer, and over the six year period I owned it, it outperformed pretty much everything it came up against in everything but light grasp. The only real competition came from other high end apo refractors.

There is one other observation of interest that kind of throws the the UK seeing hypotheses into question though. Although the many large scopes at my local astro club were nearly all bested by the ED120 for sharpness, contrast and definition, (not just my opinion!), there were a couple of exceptions. The Vixen 102mm fluorite always stood out as something special, but more interestingly, the 8.5" achromat appeared to be never affected by the seeing, while 8" scopes of any other design were. If it were purely down to the seeing, then surely the 8.5" refractor should have suffered in the same manner the other 8" scopes appeared to do? 

[Louis D]

5 hours ago, John said:

Meanwhile, back at the Skywatcher ED's .......

 

It's relevant, John.  I've been on the fence about buying a 100, 120, or 125 ED/APO just to see how the views compare to my larger reflectors from my backyard.  However, I had the realization that my seeing is steady enough most of the time that I doubt I'd see much of an improvement using the fracs.  As a result, I've been leaning toward taking that $2k and applying it to a lightweight 12" Dob since my old 15" Dob is too heavy for my aging back to wrestle about.  If I lived in the UK, I'd probably go the ED/APO route for sure.  I may go for a 6" ED/APO somewhere down the road when I have somewhere permanent to mount it.

[John]

23 minutes ago, Louis D said:

It's relevant, John.  I've been on the fence about buying a 100, 120, or 125 ED/APO just to see how the views compare to my larger reflectors from my backyard.  However, I had the realization that my seeing is steady enough most of the time that I doubt I'd see much of an improvement using the fracs.  As a result, I've been leaning toward taking that $2k and applying it to a lightweight 12" Dob since my old 15" Dob is too heavy for my aging back to wrestle about.  If I lived in the UK, I'd probably go the ED/APO route for sure.  I may go for a 6" ED/APO somewhere down the road when I have somewhere permanent to mount it.

Probably a sound conclusion Louis - my 12" F/5.3 dob cost be around $600 pre-owned and it's not outperformed by any of my refractors even here in the UK. The refractors do things differently though, which is why I like to own and use a few of those as well as the dob

What I do find is that the refractors often get much closer in terms of planetary performance than the big aperture difference might suggest they should. I do prefer the views of binary stars with refractors as well.

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, John said:

Probably a sound conclusion Louis - my 12" F/5.3 dob cost be around $600 pre-owned and it's not outperformed by any of my refractors even here in the UK. The refractors do things differently though, which is why I like to own and use a few of those as well as the dob

What I do find is that the refractors often get much closer in terms of planetary performance than the big aperture difference might suggest they should. I do prefer the views of binary stars with refractors as well.

I agree about the clarity of the view in an ED/APO.  I really like the low power views in my 72ED.  The lack of any central obstruction or diffraction spikes makes a huge difference on close doubles.  The presentation just looks so pure.  Great, now I'm waffling again. ?  Thanks a lot. ?