LP killing the view

[cotterless45]

I was looking through some notebooks and came across observations from 10 years ago . These were galaxies observed using a 10” Lightbridge Dob.

I remember chasing galaxies as being quite easy starhops using the PSA. I recall the “whale “ and posting a couple of times to “ Tha’ she blows!”. Now ,

from the same garden at the edge of town I can just about get Bodes. A recent survey has indicated light pollution getting 10% worse each year over the last ten years.

It is hardly worthwhile getting out my 8” Newt , except for bright planetary nebulae , planets and comets. 

A new 600 unit housing development is being completed a mile away. We have a ski centre with lights pointing into the sky, to track ski jumpers ? 

We have a new golf driving range with lights that point upwards. Presumably to track moon shots. 

Those who know me , will know that I’m the last to moan or complain (!) , but these skies are bleached and they’ve stolen our galaxies. 

Led and people lighting up their houses have stolen views that youngsters and oldsters should be free to enjoy .

Anyone else notice ?

Clear skies ! Nick.

[AstroGS]

And it will only get worse….. Is this the inevitable consequence of evolution?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/24/londons-msg-sphere-concert-venue-comes-one-step-closer-to-reality

 

 

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

Very sad Nick. Even here 6 miles from Liverpool city centre the skies have brightened obviously.

I remember years ago before getting into practical astronomy & when I smoked, watching the Geminids from my patio.

The main contributors are I believe, are edge of town warehousing complexes. Looking out from roof top Velux windows, it's possible to see the cones of light shining up.

[Shaun_Astro]

This LED lighting is completely horrific. It has blue light that basically ruins the circadian rhythm of most animals, and it's broad spectrum so you can't block it.

"Light pollution: Huge fall in stars that can be seen with naked eye"

Light pollution: Huge fall in stars that can be seen with naked eye - BBC News

Edited February 3, 2023 by Shaun_Astro

[Grump Martian]

I live in Cheshunt, just North of the M25. It has become impossible to enjoy visual observing most of the time. The pictures give some examples of light polluted skies from where I live. First looking east towards Essex.

The second shows the cemetery across the road  with the settled snow just before Christmas. It was 3.00 a.m. and as bright as the day.

The third shows the results of a local business that insists on blue neon lights. And with more commercial development may well get worse.

[Ouroboros]

You do have to wonder whether Astronomy as a hobby - at least in a largely urbanised country like the UK - is going to die out over a period of 10 to 20 years. We might be the last generation.

It’s not just light pollution either.  It looks like the number density of satellites  will eventually block out the sky from everywhere anyway.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by Ouroboros

[Zermelo]

1 hour ago, cotterless45 said:

Anyone else notice ?

Just before Christmas, our low-pressure sodium street lights were replaced with LEDs (and a few nearby roads).
Although they weren't as bright as some others I've seen, it did seem that there was more light leaking into my back garden than before.
I've been waiting for a clear might with a new moon to measure the zenith brightness, and I now have. I got 20.75, when previously I've had it up to 21.00.
I don't know whether a few dozen street lights can make that much difference. I'll keep taking measurements.

[cotterless45]

Wow , it’s bad out there .
 

Every year we go to north Skye , 30 miles from town . It’s pristine dark sky with the arms of M33 an easy view . When I return , some nights I can’t see more than 8stars instead of about 3000.

Here , I’ve heard blackbirds singing at 2am it’s so light . 
As with so many things nowadays , nobody with the power to change things , cares .

Nick

[glafnazur]

We've had new LEDs and it has actually lessened the sky glow noticeably for me.

I took this picture on a foggy morning towards the end of December and there appears to very little, if any, light directed upwards.

And this image was taken earlier this week as I approached one of these lights on the corner of the road and again there appears to be little light escaping upwards. Although I do wonder if they are reflecting more light upwards from the ground?

[scarp15]

Although there is more public awareness (and cost), it just doesn't seem to be registering within society; is bad for mental wellbeing, wildlife and astronomy. New office blocks are built and lit, housing estates reach ever further into green belt territory, nothing gets in the way (not even a colony of protected red squirrels to the northern outskirts of Newcastle). Locally I do not have neighbour issues currently, which has enticed me to go out and use my yard with high walls and bushes more frequently.  

Only times in quite a while I have encountered true dark skies have been on infrequent wild camps along the Northumberland Scotland border, without any optical aid though.  

[Ouroboros]

In the end commercial interests and the pressure for development (new roads, houses etc) will always trump the requirements of nature, habitat, night sky or whatever.  The idea that we can somehow have both nature and ever increasing human activity is pie in the sky.  The worst of it in a way is the lie that somehow we can. The inclusion of so-called “mitigation plans” in all proposed new developments may well give planning departments a warm feeling, but they are at best delusional and at worst peddling downright  lies. 

[Mr Spock]

I was only talking to someone yesterday about light pollution. I described how, with orange streetlights, I had a huge orange dome from Sheffield to the East, but straight up I could see the milky way and west was reasonably dark and could see DSOs and faint stars.

Now we are all LED my sky is light grey. The best I can do, in a good part of the sky and on a good night, is see down to mag 4.5.

[Ian McCallum]

There are laws against environmental, sound and air pollution - there should also be laws against gross light pollution.  I'm sure there are already existing laws dealing with most of this stuff, but getting it enforced is a different matter.

[cajen2]

What I can never understand is that businesses and local councils are always complaining about high costs, yet will leave their lights on all night. I have a street lamp outside my back garden, blocking southerly views, which is on till 4am. It illuminates one tiny corner of a pedestrian path, along with numerous others. You'd have thought the council could switch them off after, say, midnight but no. They're happy enough to raise council tax every year, though...

[wookie1965]

New LED light at the back of my house where I view from.

[Guest]

I read these posts and it reminds me just how fortunate i am to live out in the sticks.  Yes i do still have light pollution out here but the closest is 400 yards away.  The sky glow from the two nearest towns have increased light glow but are still fairly low on the horizon.  I don't believe that visual astronomy will go away, but how we do it will change.  We visual people will end up with scopes that will operate somewhere between what we have now and a Stellina.  Below is a picture of the biggest area of light pollution and it is located to my south approximately 400 yards away. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Mike Q

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, wookie1965 said:

New LED light at the back of my house where I view from.

That is insane.  I would be complaining about thet even if i wasn't into astronomy. 

[wookie1965]

I have said its for security and I would be complaining if I was burgled.

[Ouroboros]

Trouble is there is almost no financial benefit in maintaining dark sky. Whereas lighting employs thousands of people in one way or another, generates billions in revenue, and is seen by most people as a benefit.  We’re hissing in the wind here to expect any change to the good in this area.   I think the best we can hope for is that certain areas are reserved as dark ‘ish’ sky areas.  But everywhere else is done for. 

[scotty1]

Most people wouldn't notice the light pollution creeping up around them. If they have no interest in looking up, or even have the time. 

As long as they have nicely lit paths for 24hours, expanding industrial estates blazing lights all night, but supplying jobs. 

I've noticed the urban expansion along with the lights in the last 20 years. A location that was reasonably dark a few miles from town, with good horizons all round, is now amongst houses, street lights, and industrial units. 

Each town is expanding, so the areas between town that were good for sky watching, are shrinking. When trying to escape the lights from one town, you just run into the next. 

Overpopulated maybe?

[Grump Martian]

21 hours ago, cotterless45 said:

As with so many things nowadays , nobody with the power to change things , cares .

I am a local Councillor here in Broxbourne. I am raising awareness of light pollution. Also in discussion with my colleague Councillors and officers. It is now scheduled for debate at an environment meeting. The hope is that we can add light pollution as a consideration for large commercial planning applications. We need to get intouch with our local borough and county Councillors aswell as writing to our MP's

As mention in previous posts on this topic. It's not just for dark skies and astronomy. But light pollution has a detrimental effect on the health of people and animals.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Grump Martian
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[Mr Spock]

It's so light here we sometimes get birds singing!

[Roy Challen]

I recalled just today that I used to go galaxy chasing with a Meade ETX70. I could easily see M87 with that scope 18 years ago. I couldn't even see M81/2 with a Tal 100 a couple of years ago. Pretty soon, I'll only be doing lunar and solar 

[glafnazur]

Just found out today that they are building 400 new houses and a primary school on the fields behind the end of our close 😞

[Peter Drew]

As well as being ring fenced by the largest wind turbines available that spoil the seeing we now have to contend with half a dozen arc lights installed by a new owner of a business less than 400 yards away.  They seem to be directed at us and are bright enough to cast shadows.  A friendly approach to explain the problem it causes our observations/photography has been met by "your problem, not mine, it's my land and I can do what I like".  We have now approached the Council and await to see if he's right.      ☹️