The Bodgers...

[powerlord]

<rant>

A bit of a rant... I've bought quite a bit of second hand equipment in the last year - from folk in here, or folk on astromart, and the number of times I find the following defies belief... I really can't understand a person who purchases something, perhaps costing over 1000 pounds, and then can't be bothered buying a 5 quid set of allen keys, or a proper circlip/needle nose pliers.. or just goes in there and screws things up without a clue what they are doing. It seems almost the default ?

As An example, I purchases a second hand EQ6 pro a few weeks back. From astromart. I went to see it and the person selling it was selling it on behalf of a friend who had passed away for the family. He himself had lots of fancy mounts, his own observatory, etc. So I trusted his judgement when he said the mount was all working and in good order.

On getting it home, on the first night I noticed the worm was jumping.. and then once that was adjusted, some other issues, and finally over the weekend, I took the time to totally dissassemble it and fit a rowan belt mod that was sold with it, boxed.

Here's some of the things I found... and remember, this is a 1200 quid mount...

1. every one of the 4 bearing covers was scaped and botched where it had been taken off/fitted with who knows what rather than a proper circlip type tool. They were also tightened massively tighter than they should be.

2. several of the grub screws were worn where a metric allen key has been used instead of the proper sized imperial one (hint.. if allen key is a bit loose.. it's the wrong size. stop!)

3. the lower ALT adjustment bolt was really really stiff. It was hardly possible to adjust, and hard to remove. On removing I notice the threading on the ali is all burred and knackered...

4. with the ALT bolts out. the mount will not move at all in the ALT pivot - it's been bolted so tight it can't even move ! No wonder they have been having to force the bolts in, scoring the tilt plate in an attempt to  move it. hint... if it's not moving.. ask yourself why.. stop trying.

5. To dissassemble the ALT axis, I need to remove the EQ6 plastic badge cover and degree one on the other side... yup - you've guessed it, both glue on with tons of epoxy - could not be removed without chipping them off in bits.

6. the bolts of course are rock solid tight, once removed I see the grub screws on the adjuster plate also massively tight. It all had to be taken apart, cleaned, regreased and put together again with an appropriate tension, so that, guuess what.. the axis can actually work as an axis and rotate!. Of course I now don't have any covers but if I did, I wouldn't be glueing them on with epoxy I could never remove again!!!!

Needless to say, this was all quite annoying , and I expected better from an experienced felllow astrophotographer, but it is not the exception - I've had vixen plates where a metric bolt was been forced into an imperial hole, gears adjusted so tightly they hardly move. etc etc.

</rant>

 

[AstroKeith]

Whilst I sympathise, the problem is I think more fundamental.

The typical level of technical knowledge isn't up to maintaining such kit. Most people haven't heard of circlip pliers, or the difference between imperial and metric. So they aren't going to go and get some.

Even if someone is aware of their shortcomings, there are no service centres. I spend (and enjoy) quite a lot of time at star parties 'fixing' kit.

I'm personally frustrated by people who refuse, even when explained, to appreciate ohms law. They insist on pulling 6 amps through metres of thin wire and then complain that their batteries rent any good.

[powerlord]

maybe something in that - I had a plumber doing a new bathroom a few years ago.. he was struggling to screw the shower cabinet together. I looked closed and he was using a flat head driver - the screw was a posidrive.

I said to him - er.. what are you doing ? "this is better - the philips one slips all the time"

I explained to him what posidrive was and yeh, philips will slip, cause its not a philips screw head... which was apparently completely new information to him.. he of course, continued to use his flat head driver to knacker all the screws as soon as I left the room.

But still, if you know nowt, don't tough it surely ? I mean, if you are the sort of person that doesn't know metric from imperial, posidrive from philips, surely you'd think twice before hacking into 1500 quid worth of mount?? But apparently not. sigh.

[ONIKKINEN]

8 minutes ago, AstroKeith said:

Whilst I sympathise, the problem is I think more fundamental.

The typical level of technical knowledge isn't up to maintaining such kit. Most people haven't heard of circlip pliers, or the difference between imperial and metric. So they aren't going to go and get some.

Even if someone is aware of their shortcomings, there are no service centres. I spend (and enjoy) quite a lot of time at star parties 'fixing' kit.

I'm personally frustrated by people who refuse, even when explained, to appreciate ohms law. They insist on pulling 6 amps through metres of thin wire and then complain that their batteries rent any good.

"check the connections once the smoke clears out" is a saying mechanics tell as a joke(?) when learning.

In mechanic school (for cars) we had test engines that were not going to be used for anything other than learning at school. Our teachers encouraged us to over tighten some bolts to see what happens and how easily, and then teach how to fix that destroyed thread. Most didn't need any special encouraging, but just accidentally broke some threads as there is really no way for someone to know how easily you can do that. I dont think there is any real way to learn mechanical skills without making all the mistakes one could make and so i will be wary of second hand kit that has a chance its been "improved".

[Swoop1]

I know a bike mechanic with 'calibrated wrists' so he doesn't need a torque wrench. Does it up to the prescribed torque then adds another 50% 😱

Despite the fact that he is a trained and qualified technician, I don't let him near my stuff.

Many folk out there with less qualifications often delve into the innards of expensive technical kit with sometimes less than favorable outcomes (me included). I do however RTFM (Read The Flipping Manual) which seems to be anathema to a lot of wielders of tools.

[powerlord]

aye, there used to be an excuse as you say - where would you learn to do better - but now nearly everything is a few clicks away. there's no excuse really. And yeh mechanics who don't use torque wrenches and swear they get it right by feel (though you can bet they have never actually put it to the test) are a bugbear of mine for sure - from wheel bots nearly welded on, to stretched head bolts, etc. arg...

[ONIKKINEN]

5 hours ago, powerlord said:

aye, there used to be an excuse as you say - where would you learn to do better - but now nearly everything is a few clicks away. there's no excuse really. And yeh mechanics who don't use torque wrenches and swear they get it right by feel (though you can bet they have never actually put it to the test) are a bugbear of mine for sure - from wheel bots nearly welded on, to stretched head bolts, etc. arg...

Wheel bolts tightened with a 1m extension as leverage "just in case" 🤣. Never getting that off cleanly again.

[fozzybear]

6 hours ago, Swoop1 said:

I do however RTFM

also to check RTOFM otherwise SNAFU ensues... 

Also garages tend to AirGun everything up and then no catting hells chance of getting the bolts out 

[banjaxed]

On the other hand I suppose these people don’t end up with lots of specialist tools that you only use once because you don’t want to cause any damage by botching the job. Not mentioning who 🙄

[Mr Spock]

Ignorance is bliss though 

[RobertI]

8 hours ago, powerlord said:

<rant>

A bit of a rant... I've bought quite a bit of second hand equipment in the last year - from folk in here, or folk on astromart, and the number of times I find the following defies belief... I really can't understand a person who purchases something, perhaps costing over 1000 pounds, and then can't be bothered buying a 5 quid set of allen keys, or a proper circlip/needle nose pliers.. or just goes in there and screws things up without a clue what they are doing. It seems almost the default ?

As An example, I purchases a second hand EQ6 pro a few weeks back. From astromart. I went to see it and the person selling it was selling it on behalf of a friend who had passed away for the family. He himself had lots of fancy mounts, his own observatory, etc. So I trusted his judgement when he said the mount was all working and in good order.

On getting it home, on the first night I noticed the worm was jumping.. and then once that was adjusted, some other issues, and finally over the weekend, I took the time to totally dissassemble it and fit a rowan belt mod that was sold with it, boxed.

Here's some of the things I found... and remember, this is a 1200 quid mount...

1. every one of the 4 bearing covers was scaped and botched where it had been taken off/fitted with who knows what rather than a proper circlip type tool. They were also tightened massively tighter than they should be.

2. several of the grub screws were worn where a metric allen key has been used instead of the proper sized imperial one (hint.. if allen key is a bit loose.. it's the wrong size. stop!)

3. the lower ALT adjustment bolt was really really stiff. It was hardly possible to adjust, and hard to remove. On removing I notice the threading on the ali is all burred and knackered...

4. with the ALT bolts out. the mount will not move at all in the ALT pivot - it's been bolted so tight it can't even move ! No wonder the %&*$£ has been having to force the bolts in, scoring the tilt plate in an attempt to  move it. hint... if it's not moving.. ask yourself why.. stop trying.

5. To dissassemble the ALT axis, I need to remove the EQ6 plastic badge cover and degree one on the other side... yup - you've guessed it, both glue on with tons of epoxy - could not be removed without chipping them off in bits.

6. the bolts of course are rock solid tight, once removed I see the grub screws on the adjuster plate also massively tight. It all had to be taken apart, cleaned, regreased and put together again with an appropriate tension, so that, guuess what.. the axis can actually work as an axis and rotate!. Of course I now don't have any covers but if I did, I wouldn't be glueing them on with epoxy I could never remove again!!!!

Needless to say, this was all quite annoying , and I expected better from an experienced felllow astrophotographer, but it is not the exception - I've had vixen plates where a metric bolt was been forced into an imperial hole, gears adjusted so tightly they hardly move. etc etc.

</rant>

 

Understandable frustration. Sounds like the original owner was making the mount worse and worse, although to be fair they may have been aware of their engineering limitations and never intended the mount to be sold on. You may have been unlucky with your purchases. I bought a mount and scope from a member on here and it had been adjusted and collimated to perfection and I felt I got something of a bargain. But I know plenty of others in your position. I think @Chris had a similar experience as you with an EQ6 years back….

[maw lod qan]

2 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Wheel bolts tightened with a 1m extension as leverage "just in case" 🤣. Never getting that off cleanly again.

Just because of that I always have a large 4way lug wrench in the car! It's much worse now I'm in my 60's!

[tomato]

I started my career in the chemical processing industry as a Pilot Plant technician and was shown how to assemble Corning Quickfit glass process plant. I was told that the glass column buttress ends under compression were stronger than the cast iron flanges bolting them together. I was sceptical and left to me own devices promptly proved the statement by tightening a joint until the 9" iron flange split down the middle, the glass was unscathed.  Learning by doing is good.

[Carbon Brush]

I don't consider myself a mechanical expert by any means.
However, like @powerlord  I have been astounded by the 2nd hand astronomy and other kit I have bought that just needs a bit of basic adjustment using low cost hand tools to bring it back into good working order.
A SW goto dob that needed a bit of clutch adjustment and the base bearing cleaning.
A Skytee2 that just needed opening and grubscrews tightening. A defect that the seller omitted to mention by the way!
Someone selling flexible slo mo assemblies thought a hacksaw was the way to deal with a damaged screw head. I managed to extract the screw.
I could fill a page.....

In astronomy electronics. Again I am astounded by how many people connect expensive mounts and cameras to untested power supplies, or wonder why 10 years old batteries let them down.
They will spend £1k each on clever mounts and cameras but won't spend £20 on a multimeter so they can fault find. Or expect a £10 PSU from China will be reliable and won't risk mount damage.

I am in the unusual minority, spending many years aquiring tools and skills to tackle a wide range of repair, adjustment and installation jobs.

Sadly, the 'can't do it' attitude starts in school these days and is strengthened in the home.
Just look at the proportion of folk who 'get someone in' to do basic plumbing like a tap swap. Or take a bike to the shop for a puncture or basic brakes & gears setup.

At our village primary school, we fund raised to buy loads of gym equipment. Wall climbing frames and the like. But it needed installing.
A fair proportion of the dads worked at pits and power stations (yes it was some years back) so knew a fair bit about doing practical jobs safely.
But no, the school had to get someone in....
I would have thought letting the dads play on it for an hour after installation and it not pulling away from the wall would be a good test.

I was cruel to my children. I made them learn about punctures and basic bike maintenance.
My youngest, on hearing a friend couldn't join him for a ride grabbed spanners and had the wheel off the bike. He was too young (8ish?) to have the strength to get the tyre on/off the rim, but did everything else for himself.
The friends mum was going to take the bike to the shop!
The cruelty continued as they grew. They had old cars given when old enough so they had to learn how to keep them running.
Now they can choose whether to DIY repair or take it to a garage.
Importantly, no mechanic has ever got away with a story about the double overhead underhang on the throttle sprottle being stuck.

These days, I don't get angry. If anyone is prepared to try, I offer to help and will put the effort in. Otherwise I smile and wave.
If you don't want to try to help yourself, I am happy to buy your wobbly mount at low cost, knowing there is a good chance I can make it good for minimal spend, and a couple of hours fettling that is more enjoyable than watching TV.
Similarly, your intermittent goto or handset that may just need a new plug, or even strain relief on a cable.....

Applying this 'get someone in' to my work means  I'm not worried about going to the job centre any time in the forseeable future.

Sorry to hijack the post with my rant🤣.
 

[Captain Scarlet]

I bought an Intes Mak (M603) a couple of years ago from a member here @Richard136. It was in a pretty poor state, no fault of the person I bought it from, but it may well have been some of the reason he sold it. Admittedly it's old, early 1990s I reckon. It's a Rumak-Mak with collimation adjustment screws front and back, 12 screws in all! The collimation screw-heads were a mixture of slot- and cross-head, and all seriously worn: clearly some heavy metal-tearing torque had been applied .... for collimation!!! But the process of fixing it was pure joy: I replaced all the bolts/screws, had it completely apart, much stuff went in the ultrasonic cleaner bath, I rebuilt it and now it's a scope I really love.

M

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Captain Scarlet

[powerlord]

yeh, I work with folk like that "I can't do a meeting at 2pm, the're a man coming in to fit a shelf".

I hate spending money on new appliances if no need - they give me zero pleasure. I've fitted 2 replacement elements in the oven, repaired my microwave twice, 2 elements in the dishwasher, repaired my washing machine, and the hot tub is on it's 3rd motor, 2nd controller, and 2nd heater after 20 years. None of this stuff is rocket science, but of all my mates, none of em would have attempted it. Don't really understand that mentality. I was 5yo when I took my first thing apart and remade it better (operation game), I could certainly repair all bike stuff by 8 or 9. It does appear to be a dying mentality 😞

[powerlord]

5 minutes ago, Captain Scarlet said:

I bought an Intes Mak (M603) a couple of years ago from a member here @Richard136. It was in a pretty poor state, no fault of the person I bought it from, but it may well have been some of the reason he sold it. Admittedly it's old, early 1990s I reckon. It's a Rumak-Mak with collimation adjustment screws front and back, 12 screws in all! The collimation screw-heads were a mixture of slot- and cross-head, and all seriously worn: clearly some heavy metal-tearing torque had been applied .... for collimation!!! But the process of fixing it was pure joy: I replaced all the bolts/screws, had it completely apart, much stuff went in the ultrasonic cleaner bath, I rebuilt it and now it's a scope I really love.

M

 

ooo ultrasonic cleaner bath... I do fancy one of those tbh....

[powerlord]

Oh and if you are one of 'us' types.. and you have not got yerself a 3d printer yet - what is wrong with you man!!! I've had one for 9 years now (well still got that one, and got a newer one too) - learning CAD was a steep learning curve, but then it's awesome - any idea/invention/widget you think of - 30 mins in CAD and I've designed it and it's printing out.

[Captain Scarlet]

1 minute ago, powerlord said:

Oh and if you are one of 'us' types.. and you have not got yerself a 3d printer yet - what is wrong with you man!!! I've had one for 9 years now (well still got that one, and got a newer one too) - learning CAD was a steep learning curve, but then it's awesome - any idea/invention/widget you think of - 30 mins in CAD and I've designed it and it's printing out.

STOP! I've been hankering after / resisting one for years and you're not helping

[Richard136]

15 hours ago, Captain Scarlet said:

I bought an Intes Mak (M603) a couple of years ago from a member here @Richard136. It was in a pretty poor state, no fault of the person I bought it from, but it may well have been some of the reason he sold it. Admittedly it's old, early 1990s I reckon. It's a Rumak-Mak with collimation adjustment screws front and back, 12 screws in all! The collimation screw-heads were a mixture of slot- and cross-head, and all seriously worn: clearly some heavy metal-tearing torque had been applied .... for collimation!!! But the process of fixing it was pure joy: I replaced all the bolts/screws, had it completely apart, much stuff went in the ultrasonic cleaner bath, I rebuilt it and now it's a scope I really love.

M

 

Indeed you did @Captain Scarlet - and how I still regret letting it go!! But the fact is I had not got the time to fix it up. I glad you've given it a new lease of life.

(for the record the high torque wasn't from me!)

You did a great post on the rebuild, IIRC

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Richard136

[powerlord]

Well, after stripping the EQ6, cleaning everything, regreasing and tuning everything I've went from 1-1.5" RMS to this: 😀

[david_taurus83]

On 02/02/2022 at 22:05, Carbon Brush said:

 hacksaw was the way to deal with a damaged screw head.

 

I have done this! It got me out of a jam a time or 2!

[Carbon Brush]

Hacksaw the head to make a slot, yes.👍
Hacksaw the body. Something very different🤔😲

[johninderby]

Dremel and cutting disk is better. 🙂

Edited February 4, 2022 by johninderby

[Swoop1]

On 04/02/2022 at 20:28, johninderby said:

Dremel and cutting disk is better. 🙂

No toolkit is complete without a Dremel or clone.