Wasted time

[geordie85]

After tonight's imaging run I'm curious to know how much time others have under the stars that is "wasted"?

Tonight I was all ready to go around 9:30pm and all packed up by 4am, yet I only managed to collect 9 900 second subs. This was due to a range of misfortune from guiding issues to power issues and everything in between. 

I'm curious to know how much "wasted" time others have on a typical nights imaging.

Unfortunately this happens to me alot more often than I'd like to admit.

[Star101]

With my old setup I would sometimes be lucky if I had 1 sub to show from all night. My mount had too much weight and PHD2 would take over an hour to sort out and get some sort of reasonable performance. I would spend all night fighting with my mount and have no subs to show for it as all were streaky.

I was always reluctant to calibrate PHD2 because it took an age but I new nothing would work unless I did it. About as much fun as homework on a Friday night!

Now, with my new mount, PHD2 takes no more than 10 minutes to calibrate ( heaven  ) sometimes much quicker. Then, if I just point and shoot, I'm off taking 600s subs and back in the house watching TV with my wife while watching the subs roll in on my remote desktop laptop. YES, IT IS THAT GOOD!

I have not really had issues with power or cameras etc. It was always the mount. About 18Kg on a 16Kg weighted mount for AP. Oh, and clouds. Imaging and wondering why that 300s sub is much clearer than the newer 600s subs lol. Darn clouds!! 

[Craney]

I feel your pain.  I'm on the upslope of the enthusiasm curve at the moment and tend to want to photograph EVERYTHING !!    Last clear night I got 12 separate objects  (mostly galaxies)  spending about 1/2 hour on each.  Due to light pollution I go for 1 min subs and rack up about 20-30 of them.  It's a bit manic between objects and the results are becoming better with experience.   Major 'wastage' of time ...... 1)  Polar alignment to a level that will support good tracking.  Using SharpCap with my ZWO120mc.... a revelation.  No non-sense accurate alignment in 5 mins,  also I have drilled some 'markers' in the patio to place the tripod exactly where it should be first time.   2)  Swapping scopes.......mmmm???  I often wonder if this is a good idea, everything goes back to zero with the set up.....and lets face it, things are not as efficient at 03:00am !!  Better to start with one goal for the night and achieve it.

3)  Slick efficiency......  I should think more about what I am going to do next during image runs. I tend to wander around the garden looking at the stars ... (old romantic that I am ). For example l have been known to launch into a 30 x 1 min session with the Bahtinov mask still on !!!  Doh!!

Still, things get better, stick with it.

 

Sean

[geordie85]

I'm using an Neq6 and WO Star 71 so weight is far from an issue. I first tried to get some colour data on M101 but phd2 just kept tracking a hot pixel even though my guide scope is slightly out of focus so by the tme I'd noticed M101 was in the top left corner, not center. When I tried to plate solve to get it back center Astro tortilla would claim it had solved but M101 was still in the same place. I then tried go-to image and uploaded an old M101 sub but still no joy.

I then decided to get some more L subs on markarians chain and all was well. I kept popping out to check and everything was fine so I set out to take 16 900 second subs. Checked back during sub 6 and all was good. Went back about 2 hours later to find the power supply to me atik had come loose so it stopped taking images 3 subs after I last checked. Plugged everything back in, set cooling off again but by the time ot reached -20 the sensor was full of frost. 

After admitting defeat I warmed the sensor back up slowly, waited for the frosting to disappear then took a new set of flats.

So after 6.5 hours I'd managed 2 hours 15 mins of subs.

[Petergoodhew]

This for me was the biggest disappointment when starting out.  Achieving ANYTHING was a challenge, and at times I was close to giving up and selling up. I think this is even more significant in the UK where clear nights are rare, and to waste any imaging time is tragic.  I now have setups that rarely, if ever fail me.  What I slowly learnt is that in this game there is zero room for error, and it only takes one problem with one component, be that hardware or software, to write off a whole night.  Also I really hate trying to debug such issues in the middle of the night when it's freezing cold and I'm tired and grumpy!

I've found that I had to systematically look at each snag that occurred, and perform some form of root cause analysis so that I could figure out how to prevent it from ever occurring again.  I've had to replace USB cables, other cables, power units, and USB hubs. And yes I've had all of the classic issues of flexure, cable snags, backlash, slipping focuser, wrong settings in software like SGP.  I even had two filters accidentally swapped around! It takes persistence, and an obsessive determination to eliminate forever every issue that crops up.  But in the end you will end up with a setup that does perform reliably night after night. The one things you can't fix is the weather (unless you go to remote imaging in another country).

[pete_l]

29 minutes ago, Petergoodhew said:

I've had to replace USB cables, other cables, power units, and USB hubs. And yes I've had all of the classic issues of flexure, cable snags, backlash, slipping focuser, wrong settings in software

I agree wholeheartedly. The actual astronomy side of it seems to be the smallest issue, with the fewest problems. I probably spend 90% of my "debugging" time trying to sort out these sorts of things. It also seems that you need considerable skill and experience with computers and software, just to know where to start looking for most problems.

[kirkster501]

Another thing to consider is as you image more and more, your standards rise with it.  Whereas at once you'd be "Ooohh, I got a picture of M31 !!!", you inexorably want to start to  match the standards of the imaging titans of this forum and want to see greater depth, HII regions, globular clusters etc!  A never ending upward spiral.  And you waste more time in getting there - imaging time that is in very short supply with the UK climate of late.  But this is all a good thing!  Same as anything, as you get more involved you come to appreciate what you don't know.

A wise man (Confucius was it?) once said "True knowledge is to know the extent of one's own ignorance".  Wise words.

[RichLD]

At this time of year, being a widefield imager, having a north facing garden surrounded by trees and limited time to go to my dark site, there really isn't that much in the sky to take pictures of.

I tend to use this imaging down time to sort out my kit, streamlining, ruggedizing and improving wherever I can. Come the summer I'll be back on to NB from the garden - my current itch is to get another mono camera for my dual rig so I can capture HA and OIII simultaneously but that's another story...

There's always something to put right or change in this game kit wise - I must spend at least 5x more time tinkering than I do imaging but my gear is slowly becoming more reliable and quicker to deploy, cutting down on my "wasted time" 

[spillage]

over my last three sessions I have a total of zero subs...that has to be at least 6ish hours wasted.

 

This was due to my eq6 bolt issues followed quickly by pa issues.

[cfpendock]

The thing is that clear skies seem to be so rare that when a good evening does eventually occur then it is especially frustrating when equipment doesn't work as expected.

Chris

[StuartJPP]

My last imaging run bagged me 53x 5 minute subs with no dropped ones, so wasted time was purely down to dithering and image downloading which is not strictly wasted.

The reason that I believe I manage to do this often (i.e. when we get the chance) is because every cable is trimmed to the right length, everything is marked as to where things should go, i.e. counterweights, dovetails etc...No flex, everything is bolted down that needs to be bolted down. There is no possibility of cables snagging or pulling out. The same USB ports are used for the same devices. When my box of bits is empty the rig is set up, if there are any clips, clamps, cables etc. left in the box, something is not set up right.

The netbook I use is purely for astro use and I don't update anything except for Windows defender for very minimal protection. All manner of wireless connectivity is turned off during imaging.

New version of PHD2....Forget it, new version of APT? Don't bother....Unless it is something that is causing an issue or adds functionality that you are actually going to use...

I.e. if it ain't broke, don't fix it....Leave it alone.

If things do need sorting, do it in the comfort of a warm room, don't waste imaging time unless it is to test something that needs a dark sky.

I used to have much less success when I didn't follow the above regiment. If things do go wrong, it won't be because of something that could have easily been avoided, it will be because of component failure.

Good luck.

[Caitnahs Swan]

The  more involved I get with imaging as far as new equipment, new software, new techniques, the more frustrating things get. This is nothing new to seasoned imagers. I have only been imaging for about a year and can officially state that my head hurts from banging it on the wall so frequently.

As Chris mentioned, when you finally get a clear night, you set up, get everything working like it should, you start your session and after about two,subs, the clouds that WERENT supposed to happen...happen...and stay the entire night. Then the real insult happens when the sun rises, the clouds clear! More head banging.

[alexbb]

How's next day at work after you stay all night awake? I avoid doing some things automatically so I need to do many things manually, but after everything is set up, I try to sleep until the plan finishes or I hear the beeps from the PhD in case the clouds roll in and the star is lost.

[JuergenB]

This is how it usually turns out:

©CSSObservatory

 

Cheers

Juergen

[RichLD]

20 hours ago, JuergenB said:

This is how it usually turns out:

©CSSObservatory

 

Cheers

Juergen

Haha, nailed it! 

[MattJenko]

I agree. Setting up and then tearing down without even taking the scope cap off as clouds have rolled in is the real kicker for me. Such a waste of time. 

[spillage]

The other night for me was classic.

Whilst watching a bit evening tv noticed a plane in the sky through the window..Odd it should be cloudy. Nope clear as a bell so decided to finish up watching my tv program first. 

When out and started to uncover the kit fire up the laptop turn around to check for polaris.

There hanging in the sky was solid wall of cloud stretching back as far as I could see. To be fair I was only going to be setting up pa on this session but I could not even do that.

[ejp1684]

I'm envious of anyone who gets even an hour or two of clear skies. It's been rubbish here for weeks.

Eric.

[Yearofthegoat]

I'm rapidly learning to set up rapidly! Well maybe not rapidly but more make hay while the sun shines. Wednesday here was sunny most of the day, the kids went charging round the garden with their water pistols like it was July.

So I made sure all the gear was outside before 8.00 ready to go. Polar aligned in twilight - i.e. as soon as I could see Polaris through the polarscope - then back in doing other things until it was dark enough (about 9/9.30 onwards). Managed to do some imaging with reasonable results.

Glad I did because yesterday it hammered down in the afternoon and evening. Today is overcast but brighter and forecast is gaps in the cloud so may well do the same setup tonight to let me pounce if the clouds go.

I envy folks with obsies who must be chilled out in their armchairs with a beer, opening their automated roofs and doing all their imaging with a mouse. I suppose it must be a bit like recording something off the telly?

 

 

[RayD]

It is really frustrating and I feel your dismay.  What I do is make sure I have some contingencies in place of bits and bobs I keep meaning to do but never seem to get time.  This could include cleaning, adjusting adding bits, taking bits off, or perhaps a bit of housekeeping on files that seems to always need doing.

There is of course then the chance to make some new dark or bias frames whilst you have your camera etc. set up.

I think it's about a mind set, and trying to stay positive (albeit that is hard sometimes) and not viewing it as wasted time, but simply pre-allocated time that you can now assign to something else.

Stick with it as the small snippets of good seeing we do get does somehow seem to make it all worthwhile.

[carastro]

When I first started imaging I often used to waste an entire evening and have nothing to show for it at the end, though I must admit much of this time wasted was trying to actually find the target as the GOTO wasn't that great.  Tripped over a cable once and disconnected the mount and had to start all over again.  I then wasted about 6 months of evenings with guiding that would not work, I tried everything and in the end I gave up and bought a new mount and the GOTO was so much better on that.  

I have resisted automating too many things as it's just more things to go wrong.  I am starting to find the GOTO isn't so accurate as it used to be and wasting time on finding even alignment stars, so have re-set back to factory settings and that seems to have improved the GOTO again. 

Once i have found the target I don't normally waste much imaging time these days, but I am sure if I had EQMOd/plate solving and autofocus I would have many more things to go wrong.

Carole 

 

[RayD]

11 hours ago, carastro said:

Once i have found the target I don't normally waste much imaging time these days, but I am sure if I had EQMOd/plate solving and autofocus I would have many more things to go wrong.

Plate solving does make like easy though Carole.  Find an image, or in SGP use framing wizard and type in what you want, solve and centre and off you go.  All done in a flash with no GOTO in sight 

[StuartJPP]

Can't agree more regarding plate solving. I use APT and it works really well. Plate solve, sync then GOTO++ and you are back on last night's target down to a few pixels. Once you have the sequence working properly I find it is quicker and more accurate than doing it manually.

[carastro]

The trouble with plate solving is I think you need a degree in IT to install Astrotortilla, so I gave that one a wide berth.  

SGP I found it rather complex and couldn't get it to speak to my guidescope in PHD (even with help from an IT expert), so I abandoned that too and my trial period expired.  

I gather APT has plate solving and might take a look at that.  Trouble is I really love the capture software I use - Artemis, it is so simple and feel rather reluctant to change to something else.   I last used APT in the early days of CCD interface and I was a bit dubious about the reliability of the cooling, but that could have been fixed now.  But I would have to use EQMOD and whilst it works fine on my home observatory NEQ6 I cannot connect my HEQ5 which I take to camp as the software only makes 4 ports available and the HEQ5 is something like Com8.  I know you can delete com ports but can't remember where the instructions are to do this, but then am I going to mess up the com port for the permanent NEQ6 as I use the same computer for both?

This is why i like to keep things simple because my IT skills or not up to the job of complicated stuff.  

Carole 

[StuartJPP]

Carole, I can't comment on APT with respect to CCD cameras as I still use my Canon DSLR.

APT uses two stand-alone plate solving packages, All Sky Plate Solver (ASPS) and Platesolve2 (APT uses them both and calls this functionality PointCraft). I think that they are installed as standard now when you install APT whereas previously you had to do install them manually....but even then it was much, much easier to get working than Astrotortilla ever was.