Galaxy observing

[bomberbaz]

Ok so I sometimes say I like observing globs, or nebulas etc but at the end of the day, I like observing anything in our night skies.

But galaxies are something of an enigma to me!

My point is that I have read on here many reports of seeing galaxies definitions in good viewing conditions and some seem to describe such detail that I wonder am i missing something. The best i can recall on really dark conditions on Andromeda was hints of swirl, all other are at best a fuzzy blob!

So am I missing something here, or is it just an experience thing and knowing what to look for!.

steve/baz

[John]

I've never done very well with galaxies from my garden Steve.

I can just see some traces of the dust lanes in M31 and the vaguest hints of the spiral form of M51 from home with my 12" dob. I can see plenty of galaxies as fuzzy spots, elipses, cigars etc with some quite bright but most pretty dim. M82 shows some dark rifts across it and there are hints of contrast variations in some of the other brighter ones.

Under a really dark sky things get better rapidly though and it's like adding 4" or so of aperture.

I think experience helps plus techniques such as averted vision and spending time studying the objects. The best "accessory" for galaxies is a really dark sky though.

Someone I know who lives just 15 or so miles from me does exceptionally well on galaxies though so it can be done. I'm referring to our own "galaxy hunter" mdstuart

[Paul73]

I get pretty much exactly as John describes on a good night from my back garden. Spending some time on the object and messing about with the eyepiece choice to get the right contrast for the seeing conditions seems to make quite a difference.

Paul

[lguise]

But when you do get the chance to observe from a dark site with a 12" or above and you see the spiral structure of M51 then you are hooked! The only problem is it is so disappointing when you get home to your light polluted garden and try looking at the the same object.

[starman1969]

I've not had chance to look at a galaxy with anything other than an 8" scope and it can be difficult to see detail, unless the sky is very dark. I prefer to look at nearby galaxies, like M31 & M33 with bins.

[Pete Presland]

M81 & M82 look pretty good from my light polluted garden

[Daniel-K]

try this NGC 4449 its a belter even when the moon is up you can see bright regions inside the core

[bomberbaz]

I've never done very well with galaxies from my garden Steve.

I can just see some traces of the dust lanes in M31 and the vaguest hints of the spiral form of M51 from home with my 12" dob. I can see plenty of galaxies as fuzzy spots, elipses, cigars etc with some quite bright but most pretty dim. M82 shows some dark rifts across it and there are hints of contrast variations in some of the other brighter ones.

Under a really dark sky things get better rapidly though and it's like adding 4" or so of aperture.

I think experience helps plus techniques such as averted vision and spending time studying the objects. The best "accessory" for galaxies is a really dark sky though.

Someone I know who lives just 15 or so miles from me does exceptionally well on galaxies though so it can be done. I'm referring to our own "galaxy hunter" mdstuart

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat here John so its not just me. A little more patience from dark sites is called for!

But when you do get the chance to observe from a dark site with a 12" or above and you see the spiral structure of M51 then you are hooked! The only problem is it is so disappointing when you get home to your light polluted garden and try looking at the the same object.

And this is what I am worried about, do I suddenly get the yearning for an 18" light bucket to compensate!!

Ok so I am off to Galloway Astronomy centre in three weeks for the new moon weekend, so hoiping for the dark skies to get some of the things I am missing out on. I am told he has an 18" scope and is very good with it. With this in mind I am making a list of DSO's I have yet to see with the eye or want more detail of that I want to see. 

Weather permitting Horsehead (a must), M1 Crab, M31, M27 Dumbell, M45 Pleiades, crescent neb, M33, M81, Heart and Soul Nebs, M97 Owl, M108 and added to the list c/o Daniel-K ngc4449.

Anyone want to add to this for me 

[scarp15]

In terms of galaxies, NGC 7331 is quite nice and bright n' easy to locate above Scheat in Pegasus. For a bit of a challenge due to its lower level, look out for the Silver Coin galaxy NGC 253 in Cetus, ought to be more favorably positioned by the time of your trip. I have yet to see this one myself.

In terms of globular's I think that M71 Sagitta can appear delicate and sparkly being much easier to resolve under a dark sky.

[estwing]

Get yerself to mid wales Steve gonna be a lot of dobs there soon!

[Moonshane]

it's all relative really. from dark skies many galaxies are still just fuzzy blobs but the brighter ones do genuinely start to show some structure with perseverance and averted vision etc.  We looked at M33 the other night in the 12" and the core was just visible with averted vision. From a dark site I have seen spiral arms in M33 with the 12" and as far as I recall some 15x70 bins. To me a lot of galaxy hunting is about actually seeing the thing but when you see structure in them it's a real bonus. They will rarely compare visually to things like globs or the Orion Nebula but in many ways they are more rewarding. Like you though, I want to see EVERYTHING!!

[Peter Drew]

Steve. Our 30" should be up and running again within the next few weeks, hopefully that will extend your experience.    

[John]

But when you do get the chance to observe from a dark site with a 12" or above and you see the spiral structure of M51 then you are hooked! The only problem is it is so disappointing when you get home to your light polluted garden and try looking at the the same object.

Very true !

In my case I was lucky to be able to view M51 from a dark sky site with a 20" dobsonian. I say lucky and it was but I have to say the 10" I had at the time seemed rather puny when used from home for quite a while afterwards. My antidote was to spend some time with globular clusters which the 10" and my current 12" show really splendidly from my back garden.

A more recent positive experience with galaxy viewing came with the supernova SN 2014J in M82 earlier this year. It was the brightest SN I've observed and stayed bright for some time so I visited M82 over and over again. As my familiarity with the galaxy grew I found I could exploit the best nights better and tease out more detail than I had before. To me this demonstrated that re-visiting DSO's and spending time examining them will pay off, even if there is no supernova present

[Moonshane]

I seem to recall it was Linton's 20" that you looked through ?

[acey]

The appearance of galaxies depends on sky darkness. Large aperture will enable you to see smaller galaxies, but if M31 is a featureless blob then any other galaxy at the same site will be featureless, no matter how much aperture is used.

I consider the absolute minimum sky quality for satisfactory galaxy viewing to be such that the Milky Way is clearly visible to the naked eye. A telescope doesn't change the surface brightness of targets (it actually worsens it) and our own galaxy has the same sort of surface brightness as the ones you'd look for in a telescope.

A handful of galaxies can be viewed at light polluted sites (M81/82 being the best) but in general, it's a case of feeling happy to have seen any at all. At a dark site you can start to look for detail, even with very small aperture. My first view of M104 was with 10x50 galaxies in Greece and I could see the "sombrero" shape.

First thing to look at is the overall shape: usually circular or oval, in some cases irregular or edge-on. Then look at the way the object brightens towards the centre. Many galaxies resemble little globular clusters, with a brightness profile not unlike M13. These are most likely E (elliptical) type galaxies. Others will have a distinct separation between a brighter inner part and a fainter outer part. These will most likely be spirals. If the inner part is very small and the outer is faint, possibly patchy, then it's probably Sc, the type with wide spiral arms. By carefully looking at the patchiness of the outer part it can be possible to get a hint in some cases of spiral structure. Others have a larger inner disc (Sa and Sb types), and in some cases, using high magnification, it's possible to see the inner part looking "double", or like an extended line. These are barred spirals (SB). And then there are the various irregular galaxies.

These things are not easy to see, but if you start with a dark sky, and put in a lot of effort, then it's perfectly possible to see lots of detail in lots of galaxies using a scope of say 8" or more.

If it's a choice between a 20" in a town or a 4" in the country then every dedicated galaxy hunter knows which is best. The really dedicated ones will opt for a 20" in the country.

[Daniel-K]

don't forget NGC 891 is a super side on galaxy

[Daniel-K]

The appearance of galaxies depends on sky darkness. Large aperture will enable you to see smaller galaxies, but if M31 is a featureless blob then any other galaxy at the same site will be featureless, no matter how much aperture is used.

 that's not true at all M51 will show spiral structure  form a moderate dark sky with a 8inch scope. m31 is just so big and is nearly side on so you don't really see much detail in m31, if m31 was face on like m51 it would be one of the best galaxies to observe.

[bomberbaz]

Steve. Our 30" should be up and running again within the next few weeks, hopefully that will extend your experience.  

will i be in a que to use it peter? 

[Peter Drew]

Hope so! 

[mjpfc]

I've not had chance to look at a galaxy with anything other than an 8" scope and it can be difficult to see detail, unless the sky is very dark. I prefer to look at nearby galaxies, like M31 & M33 with bins.

M82 looks very detailled when I can pile on the mag and have some time at the object, as time spent observing

gets your eye used to what it is looking at, and more detail slowly emerges. (Watch-out for averted imagination)

But most galaxies look a lot more detailled when I leave my suburban?? garden and head to Culver down only around

4 miles away above the orange glow. The darker skies on the south of the Island are even better and although I still have terminal

apperture-fever my 8" newt shows plenty of the brighter/darker details from there.

A nice wide angle eyepiece can keep me looking at bits of m33 for hours.

Mick

Mick

[greglloyd]

This may sound crazy, but it helps! Trust me.....

Cover your head with a large black towel when viewing. This boosts contrast a fair bit.

Dark skies are a given for galactic detail. Also, the larger the scope the better.

8" is really the minimum for most people. Some details will be seen in M82. Perhaps M51 under the darkest of skies.

Try the towel trick though ;-)

Works on globs and nebulae too!

[John]

I seem to recall it was Linton's 20" that you looked through ?

It was a black David Lukehurst 20" F/4 I seem to recall. I can't recall who the owner was, unfortunately

[swamp thing]

This may sound crazy, but it helps! Trust me.....

Cover your head with a large black towel when viewing. This boosts contrast a fair bit.

Dark skies are a given for galactic detail. Also, the larger the scope the better.

8" is really the minimum for most people. Some details will be seen in M82. Perhaps M51 under the darkest of skies.

Try the towel trick though ;-)

Works on globs and nebulae too!

The only problem with doing this is......... You look a complete tool

Luckily though..........its dark 

[greglloyd]

True! A bit like a photographer from the 1800's when they used to cover their heads with those box cameras...except the neighbours probably think you are spying on them lol!!!

[LukeSkywatcher]

I think the only galaxy i have seen any kind of detail in from my garden was The Black Eye galaxy. It was with a 130mm scope and even though it was very very small to look at, the main feature of it, which gives it it's name was obvious to see as a dark line at the bottom. Ive seen the Leo trio as 3 bright(ish) shapes. Andromeda had always been a naked eye object from my last house. It was however, just a greyish smudge shaped like a cigar.