CCD viable under UK skies?

[earth titan]

I'm looking to move toward a reduced noise profile on my images and as such, feel cooled CCD is the only way forward now.

But I ask you!

Taking the images in four stages to get all the needed subs - is it really viable under UK skies? I've struggled to get 20 colour shots with my DSLR this winter let alone 20 for each colour plus luminence etc.

[earth titan]

Or do I just say hang it and spend out for a colour CCD

[lukebl]

Depends what you mean by 'viable'. If you enjoy doing it, depite the frustrations, then it is viable.

Let's face it, most pastimes could hardly be described as viable. I have thousands of pounds-worth of kit, much of which never gets used! But I'd never get rid of it.....just in case.

[russellhq]

You could just do nice B&W shots?!

I think the trouble with colour is it's a 1/4 the resolution of a comparable monochrome

[jnc71106]

it is workable. i think of it in stages with a efw it makes it a bit easier. i setup a imaging run where it will take a single image in a filter then move onto the next and so on until i'm ready to pack up this ensures i go home with a full set of subs to work on

[earth titan]

I have to say I've been doing a bit of reading round the subject this afternoon (in among phone conversations with the HSE ... don't ask - but it's not me in trouble).

It would appear the Atik 314 is the weapon of choice.

Seems the increased sensitivity & less noise means subs are shorter and images are improved.

It's a big step in price though, from a DSLR to a 314L plus filter wheel and I'm sure there will be other stuff.

[swag72]

If you are looking at going from a DSLR to an Atik 314L+ my only advise would be to check that you really are happy with the fov that the Atik will give you. There are a couple of people I know of who have gone for an Atik 314L+ from a DSLR and couldn't get on with the small chip. It's a great camera, I love mine, but it really is small in comparison to a DSLR!!

[ncjunk]

If you are looking at going from a DSLR to an Atik 314L+ my only advise would be to check that you really are happy with the fov that the Atik will give you. There are a couple of people I know of who have gone for an Atik 314L+ from a DSLR and couldn't get on with the small chip. It's a great camera, I love mine, but it really is small in comparison to a DSLR!!

This tends to be people who like widefield shots.

The 314l has a great chip with good sensitivity, it's perfect for a large range of targets, has fast download speeds and small file sizes (making processing easier on lower spec pcs).

Every home should have one in my opinion...unless you're obsessed with the rosett or califonia nebula type pics and hate galaxies.

[kirkster501]

I was looking at a One Shot Color for precisely the reasons you describe Tom. I know its a compromise compared to the BW with filters. But good grief, at least you get something in the can to maintain enthusiasm. Constant cloud like we get in the UK and I simply cannot think how it can be viable. I bought a modded DSLR end of November and it has been used, er, three times... on every possible clear night.

[earth titan]

I was looking at a One Shot Color for precisely the reasons you describe Tom. I know its a compromise compared to the BW with filters. But good grief, at least you get something in the can to maintain enthusiasm. Constant cloud like we get in the UK and I simply cannot think how it can be viable. I bought a modded DSLR end of November and it has been used, er, three times... on every possible clear night.

I would dearly love to go mono. The images are soooooo much nicer. One shot colour does give you more in the can though.

I'm looking for reduced noise so perhaps one shot colour with cooling, may be the best for UK skies.

Typed by me on my fone, using fumms... Excuse eny speling errurs.

[Freddie]

Mono for me. It's just as quick to get the same quality pic with mono as with OSC. Ollypenrice has posted some good info on this. Worth a search to have a read of what he has to say. Also if you want to do NB it's really the only option.

[Naemeth]

An alternative of course is to get many scopes (and CCDs) all trained on the same object just with different filters for the different layers...

Well, I never said it was a cheap option... .

[carastro]

How about this for an idea.

Incidentally I am one of those imagers that Sara referred to above who did not like the FOV of the Atik314L after the DSLR, and as such i re-sold it and now have an Atik383L which I managed to get second hand and this is very close to the FOV of the Canon.

So back to the idea. You already have a DSLR. I have bought filters and a filterwheel but as you say the skies have been pretty dreadful since I got the Atik, and therefore only so far achieved 1 LRGB image and a couple of narrowband images.

The rest of the time I have done Ha images with the Atik and added the Ha to DSLR images I have already taken for colour. You can blur the DSLR images to smooth out the noise and use the Ha images for the detail, and it works quite well. So you could use you DSLR and a Mono CCD camera in tandem instead of using filters.

I will be using my LRGB filters later when we get some clearer skies, but meanwhile I have HaRGB images.

I have also set up a dual rig so I can capture RGB at the same time as Mono.

I would certainly recommend a Mono camera over OSC.

Carole

[RikM]

I love my mono camera. On most nebulous targets I do one evening of Ha so I have a nice mono shot, and then a second evening of LRGB (if possible). On galaxies I do the LRGB first and then add the Ha (if possible). It seems to work for me. The noise is so much lower and the sensitivity so much better than DSLR.

I use a Starlight Xpress H9 camera, which has the same chip as the 314L+. It has a small footprint but the field of view you get depends also on the scope you mount it on. I suffer a fair bit of light pollution, so huge faint nebs are off the menu for me anyway.

[Stephen]

I love my mono camera. On most nebulous targets I do one evening of Ha so I have a nice mono shot, and then a second evening of LRGB (if possible). On galaxies I do the LRGB first and then add the Ha (if possible). It seems to work for me. The noise is so much lower and the sensitivity so much better than DSLR.

I use a Starlight Xpress H9 camera, which has the same chip as the 314L+. It has a small footprint but the field of view you get depends also on the scope you mount it on. I suffer a fair bit of light pollution, so huge faint nebs are off the menu for me anyway.

What he said

[jnc71106]

Mono for me. It's just as quick to get the same quality pic with mono as with OSC. Ollypenrice has posted some good info on this. Worth a search to have a read of what he has to say. Also if you want to do NB it's really the only option.

+1

[johnrt]

Mono all the way for me - for LRGB images I chug away at the L for as long as it takes to get a really nice mono image, then worry about the RGB afterwards. I try and aim to get the same in OIII & SII as in Ha when doing narrowband.

I love my Atik 314l+ so much so that when they want to take it back off of me, they'll have to rip from my cold dead fingers!!!

[Gina]

Mono 314L+ and EFW2 - beautiful, virtually perfect Yes, mono definitely. I say virtually perfect because a bigger sensor with the same absense of noise and very high sensitivity would be perfect but that's out of my reach. I really love my 314L+ mono CCD camera If only we could have the weather to be able to use it!

[jezhughes]

I got a mono first then struggled to get an actual LRGB run through this winter, so i got an OSC, then struggled to get more than 30 mins of clear sky, so either way i've not had a massive amount of luck

so i'm just learning to be more patient now and selecting what i want to do mono and what i can be happy with doing with the OSC.

Comes down to preference and your habits at the end of the day.

As per above though, beware the smaller chips compared to DSLR

[Dave Smith]

One big advantage of mono is that you can do NB imaging when the Moon is up, so you get more opportunities to image which can only be good with the UK weather.

Dave

[earth titan]

I'm presuming the small chip size, gives apparently more magnification? IE galaxies take up more of the chip!

Is anyone coupling a 314 to a C9.25 with any success?

Typed by me on my fone, using fumms... Excuse eny speling errurs.

[ollypenrice]

If you are short of clear sky time use the fastest imaging camera available. The fastest imaging camera available, without any doubt whatever, is the monochrome CCD. Mono is faster than one shot colour and CCD is far faster than DSLR.

LRGB imaging was invented to speed up RGB imaging. RGB imaging can be done in two ways. You can use an OSC chip with RGGB filters placed on adjacent idividual pixels or you can use a mono and shoot through successive filters. I don't see much to choose between the two. But LRGB is cleverer. It is based on the idea that you can catch the RGB colour and then remove all filters and catch luminance, ie all colours at once, about three times as fast as when shooting RGB. You don't in fact need to shoot individual colour all night. It isn't an efficient use of time. And you are shooting individual colour whether you use OSC or coloured filters.

And as Dave says, shooting Ha in the moonlight is a brilliant way to exploit time lost to OSC and further adds to the efficiency of the mono option. (OK you can shoot Ha very inefficiently with an OSC...)

Not all OSC CCDs are equal. One to avoid is the OSC version of the 8300 which is a slow chip to start with and is really hobbled by the Bayer colour matrix. The only way in which OSC can be considered faster is psychological. You get 'something' at the end of the evening. With mono you might get LRG Zilch! But you will get an equivalent image in LRGB faster than in any other system.

One shot colour is not, cannot be, faster than mono.

Olly

[Tinker1947]

I'm wondering if the point of this thread is the speed to get a image not the speed of the imagine kits, it must be quicker to take 10 X 120 second Images with a OSC then a simple bit of processing to get a image for personal records than a Mono with the change of filters ect ect....

[Sp@ce_d]

I went through this, asked the same questions and ended up with the 314L+ & EFW2. I shoot with a dual bar setup DSLR/80ED & 314/ZS66 and regard the DSLR subs as a backup really if I don't get enough data. There's quite a few that do it this way and get good results. The 314 covers about a third FOV of the DSLR with my setup. I am sooo pleased with the 314, quieter, more sensitive... no darks! It has taken a bit of adjustment to get my head around understanding how it can be faster using mono than osc, especially with this awful weather... but you realise it when you compare single subs against the DSLR. Mono is so much more versatile. ok I might consider adding a OSC CCD but that would be to replace the DSLR not as a primary camera.

[Sp@ce_d]

I'm wondering if the point of this thread is the speed to get a image not the speed of the imagine kits, it must be quicker to take 10 X 120 second Images with a OSC then a simple bit of processing to get a image for personal records than a Mono with the change of filters ect ect....

You wouldn't need to do 10 x 120 secs exposure with the mono as it's more sensitive