Nagler 4 22mm or Nagler 5 31mm?

[chrispancho]

Hello,

I wanted to reach out to everyone here for some advice. I currently have a Tele Vue Nagler 4 17mm, viewing on a Celestron Nexstar 8SE, and am interested in an EP with a longer focal length. I really like the 82 degree AFOV, so I was immediately eyeballing the Nagler 4 22mm or Nagler 5 31mm. And this is where my problem is... which one do I choose if money isn’t a factor?  I have reviewed the specs between the two, but without trying them out, I can’t visualize which would work out the best.  Is going 31mm too much of a leap from 17mm?

Thanks All!

[alan potts]

I am not sure if it is still available but the 26mm Nagler would be my choice, I have owned all these eyepieces and feel the 31mm is a touch too long, though you do have a long focal length, if you really want a low power and you have dark skies then 31mm would be nice, I used a 41mm in my SC though it is a meter longer.

Alan

[johninderby]

The 26mm Nagler has been discontinued and seems to be bringing quite high prices second hand. Wish I had never sold mine. 😢

[chrispancho]

Thanks all!  I had to look up this 26mm ya’ll speak of and wow... pricey now!  I’m leaning for the 22mm as a small handful are saying the 31mm is a bit too much.  Also looking at a high power planetary now as well. 

[messier 111]

I asked myself the same question ,
and my verdict was around 22 t4.
it is always available.

[John]

I owned both for a while then replaced the 22mm T4 with the 21mm Ethos.

I felt that the 31mm T5 Nagler and 22mm T4 Nagler are complimentary rather than an "either or" choice.

Both really excellent Naglers

[Louis D]

If you don't need the eye relief, you might want to check out the 20mm APM XWA HDC.  It will show a larger patch of the sky and probably be as sharp as that portion which overlaps the 22mm Nagler.

[chrispancho]

18 hours ago, John said:

I owned both for a while then replaced the 22mm T4 with the 21mm Ethos.

I felt that the 31mm T5 Nagler and 22mm T4 Nagler are complimentary rather than an "either or" choice.

Both really excellent Naglers

Thanks for your reply!  Taking what you say about the 31 and 22 being complimentary, if I had to pick one of the two to get right now, should I go 22 first?  I just bought a 6mm Delose as my high power EP, and I currently have the Nagler 17mm, so I’m thinking a good progression would be to go 22mm. 

Total amateur here!

[John]

If you have to pick one then the 22mm Type 4 I think.

 

[faulksy]

6 hours ago, Louis D said:

If you don't need the eye relief, you might want to check out the 20mm APM XWA HDC.  It will show a larger patch of the sky and probably be as sharp as that portion which overlaps the 22mm Nagler.

i have one, and find it brilliant at f4. very sharp

[Paz]

I've got both the 22mm T4 and 31mm T5 and both are great.

Do you have an idea of what magnification or true field of view or exit pupil you would benefit from the most, that may swing it.

If not then the 22mm is less specialist than the 31mm and so the 22mm may be the best bet.

[John]

7 hours ago, Louis D said:

If you don't need the eye relief, you might want to check out the 20mm APM XWA HDC.  It will show a larger patch of the sky and probably be as sharp as that portion which overlaps the 22mm Nagler.

I was going to suggest just that eyepiece as well but I decided to stick with commenting on the two that @chrispancho had mentioned.

My personal choice would be the 20mm / 100 degree eyepiece because I love hyper-wide views. Not everybody does though.

 

[Louis D]

5 minutes ago, John said:

I was going to suggest just that eyepiece as well but I decided to stick with commenting on the two that @chrispancho had mentioned.

My personal choice would be the 20mm / 100 degree eyepiece because I love hyper-wide views. Not everybody does though.

 

I just threw that out there in case the OP hadn't considered non-TV options.  I'm pretty constrained in my choices due to my astigmatism, but perhaps the OP is not.

[Louis D]

3 hours ago, chrispancho said:

Thanks for your reply!  Taking what you say about the 31 and 22 being complimentary, if I had to pick one of the two to get right now, should I go 22 first?  I just bought a 6mm Delose as my high power EP, and I currently have the Nagler 17mm, so I’m thinking a good progression would be to go 22mm. 

Total amateur here!

Let's work the numbers here.  You've got a 2032mm FL scope.  That equates to 66x, 92x, and 120x for the 31mm, 22mm, and 17mm Naglers.  That's actually not a bad progression of ~30x per jump.

Most nights, around 250x or so will be the upper limit due to seeing conditions.  Your 6mm Delos at 339x is unlikely to ever see much use except to split doubles.  The 0.6mm exit pupil will also be at the limit of comfort.  You might battle with floaters in your eye at that tiny exit pupil.

I would have gone with a 10mm or 12mm Delos instead.  They would be much more likely to see extensive use at 203x and 169x, respectively.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Louis D
Typo in the scope's focal length wrecked all power calculations

[Paz]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

Let's work the numbers here.  You've got a 2032mm FL scope.  That equates to 98x, 138x, and 178x for the 31mm, 22mm, and 17mm Naglers.  That's actually not a bad progression of 40x per jump.

Most nights, around 250x or so will be the upper limit due to seeing conditions.  Your 6mm Delos at 505x is unlikely to ever see much use except to split doubles.  The 0.6mm exit pupil will also be at the limit of comfort.  You might battle with floaters in your eye at that tiny exit pupil.

I would have gone with a 10mm or 12mm Delos instead.  They would be much more likely to see extensive use at 303x and 253x, respectively.

Are those figures assuming a focal length of about 3030mm rather than 2032mm, e.g. 10mm x 303 = 3030.

Having said that I use Delos with a C8 and I agree that it usually maxes out in practice at around 12mm or 10mm, being about 179x to 203x.

[Louis D]

6 minutes ago, Paz said:

Are those figures assuming a focal length of about 3030mm rather than 2032mm, e.g. 10mm x 303 = 3030.

Having said that I use Delos with a C8 and I agree that it usually maxes out in practice at around 12mm or 10mm, being about 179x to 203x.

Corrected all values.  Thanks, I had clicked 3032 into my computer's calculator and stored it in memory.  I never caught it.  I was wondering why all the powers seemed too high.  I'm a bit off today what with our election turmoil.

[chrispancho]

Thanks everyone!  And rats, yes I had considered the Delos 10mm as well but using the hand calculator Tele Vue has on their site, I thought going to the max mag. under x350 would be best.  Glad I have some user feedback to sort that out, so thanks all!  Since I’ve already ordered it, I’ll likely try it out still. Ordering the 10mm Delose now!

[Louis D]

I have the 10mm Delos and really like it.  I also looked through one in an 8" EdgeHD at a star party.  It was showing incredible detail on Jupiter, so I know it does well when coupled with an 8" SCT.  I also find 200x in an 8" a particular sweet spot for observing planets and planetary nebula when conditions allow it and for resolving large globular clusters like M13 and M22.  Going to higher powers doesn't usually yield much improvement in resolution and often degrades low contrast features.

[Louis D]

Don't despair too much about the 6mm Delos.  It will prove very useful in an f/7 or faster scope.  I use my 5.2mm Pentax XL all the time in my ~f/6 scopes, so a 6mm would also find a good home in such a scope.  I mention this because I'm sure you'll be wanting to invest in a 72mm to 100mm ED refractor in the f/6 to f/7 range in the next year or two just so you can get to lower powers with their concomitant wider fields of view.

[chrispancho]

On 03/11/2020 at 17:26, John said:

I owned both for a while then replaced the 22mm T4 with the 21mm Ethos.

I felt that the 31mm T5 Nagler and 22mm T4 Nagler are complimentary rather than an "either or" choice.

Both really excellent Naglers

John, being that you were an owner of the 22mm T4, transitioning to the 21mm Ethos... would you recommend the Ethos over the T4?  Thanks!

[chrispancho]

I had the pleasure to speak with David Nagler himself for some advice on this choice!  I'm still feeling rather star struck!  He stated to go with the 31mm Nagler over the Ethos 21mm because the Ethos was a bit too close to my current 17mm Nagler.  The advice given and knowledge I gained with a 15 minute phone call was exactly what I needed.  I highly recommend anyone do the same if they just can't decide which EP to get of theirs.  What a guy...what a company!

[John]

On 15/11/2020 at 09:46, chrispancho said:

John, being that you were an owner of the 22mm T4, transitioning to the 21mm Ethos... would you recommend the Ethos over the T4?  Thanks!

Sorry Chris - I missed your question yesterday.

Yes I would but I didn't have the 17mm Nagler at that time, I had the 13mm Ethos. Having tried an Ethos, I was sold on them !

Good to hear that David Nagler was able to offer some good advice.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by John

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I have the Nagler 31T5, 22T4, and the 17T4, and they are my 3 favourite DSO EPs (I have a Celestron GP-C8, so same as optics as your scope). I would say the 31T5 works very nicely in the C8, and is almost always the first EP out of the case. The 22T4 is great, and I use both it and the 17T4 for my galaxy hunts, alternating between EPs depending on the surface brightness of the objects. The 31T5 does give significantly wider views than the 22T4, so if it is a matter of either 31T5 or 22T4, I would go for the 31T5. Ideally, you want both

 

[Mr Spock]

I had both the 22mm and 17mm T4s. They are both excellent - very sharp! I don't have the skies for deep sky work so I sold them in favour of the 22mm and 17mm LVWs. I find LVWs more comfortable to use and less faff changing from 2" and back. I'm happy with either in image and build quality.

[chrispancho]

54 minutes ago, John said:

Sorry Chris - I missed your question yesterday.

Yes I would but I didn't have the 17mm Nagler at that time, I had the 13mm Ethos. Having tried an Ethos, I was sold on them !

Good to hear that David Nagler was able to offer some good advice.

 

Hey no problem!  I just decided to take the direct route and call Tele Vue.  I had no idea I was going to get David Nagler on the phone!  That was nuts.  If I didn’t have the 17mm Nagler already, he would have more than likely directed me to the 21mm Ethos.  Thanks for the input and advice!