Which processing software next?

[groberts]

For the past four years during my baptism in astrophotography I have taken it step-by-step and where possible simple and low cost, you could say it is my philosophy.  Initially it was DSLR and for the past 18-months ZWO1600MM-Cool mono, LRGB & narrowband, stacking in DSS and processing exclusively in CS2 PS + some plug-ins.  I still plenty to learn with PS processing but feel I need to raise my game and incorporate a software package like PixInsight or APP in the workflow.  So far I've been put off by the apparent complexity but now feel the time has come to go over to the dark side!

Given my so-called philosophy and the experience of others, what would be the pros of cons of either package + what would you recommend?  I'm inclined towards PI and even bought Warren Keller's book on PI 12 months ago, then got cold feet. 

Thanks, Graham 

 

         

[spillage]

Both startools and pixinsight have free trial versions of the software. Not sure about app.

Startools is unlimited but you cannot save and PI is a 45 day trial.

I have the full version of startools and find it very easy as there is no set workflow. I am currently using the PI 45 day trial and my limited knowledge is showing me some good results but I am struggling to find my feet with it.

[Tim]

There is no software out there to rival Pixinisght at the moment.

[RolandKol]

In comparison with PS, 

PI is way ahead... It is completely different to PS, so you need some time to get along.

it is all in one, Pre and Post processing, plus Light and Calibration image analysis tool.

But at the end, you will not imagine how you managed to play with your images without Automatic or Dynamic Background extractor, Deconvolution, ColorMask script and PixelMath...
On another hand... PI price... is something what can scare you off... Plus, it is tricky to start and understand how to use it properly.
it has no step by step workflow in it, - just a set of different tools which you will decide then and how to use.

PI has trial.... 
Don't waste time on stacking pics with it, DSS does quite a good job, but you can start testing stacks.

initial steps: duplicate image and on duplicate - press CTRL+A, use Automatic background extraction, press CTRL+A, crop (save crop icon).
Close clone, use crop on the Original image (or duplicate it again), Automatic or Dynamic background extraction, Deconvolution, - Noise reduction with multiscale median transform, > stretch to nonlinear state with Histogram transformation.

you will for sure will need to use youtube for each tool I mentioned... they are not very self-explanatory

 

[Tim]

Kayron has excellent step by step tutes to get you going:

http://www.lightvortexastronomy.com/tutorials.html

[PeterCPC]

I have used PI and now use APP. I find it much easier to get to grips with than PI. I would recommend APP.

Peter

[PhotoGav]

You will probably end up wanting to use both! I have been using APP for a while now and think it is superb, however it is relatively limited in what it can do, it just does it very very well. I use it for calibration, alignment, stacking, gradient removal, colour calibration and combination. I then take the stacks into PhotoShop for everything else. Pixinsight is a program that I have only dabbled with so far, but see that, once you have climbed its steep learning curve, it has some very useful abilities. The one thing that APP desperately needs is a really good deconvolution routine, which is in the development pipeline but I don't know when it will be available. With regards to price, they are not that far apart: APP is €125 + VAT and Pixinsight is €230 + VAT. How good is PI at calibration and stacking? One thing that APP seems to excel at is mosaic stitching. As Peter says above, APP is certainly much easier to use. I think that PI is a more complete package though, if you can brave the learning curve.

[Ibbo!]

I use mainly Maxim for acquiring and stacking and PS for processing.

 

APP is great for mosaics.

I find it a little slow on my PC though.

I tried PI very early on and could not get on with it (I do mean early)and also tried again a few years ago and got lost , there are many more tutorials and help out there now so it maybe easier to find your way round it now.

[groberts]

Thanks everyone, much appreciated. 

As I expected, PI seems to be the more complete package but it is that learning curve that puts me off - even with tutorials and help from SGL it is somewhat intimidating and life is too short.  However, I'm sure there's more to be had from my data and I need to bite the bullet one way or another. 

As a matter of interest, with APP being relatively new (I believe?) is there much help online + same with Startools?

Graham   

[Adreneline]

Hi Graham

3 hours ago, groberts said:

what would you recommend?

I'm a PI+PS fan. I use PI for preprocessing using the built in script and have never had any issues. I also strongly recommend DBE or ABE and the colour calibration capability of PI.

I usually end up producing RGB images using HistogramStretch and ArcsinhStretch and then combine them in PS using layers; you can do the same in PI but I like the control that PS affords for colour manipulation. I also like to combine Ha with R in PS using an approach advocated by others on this forum where Ha is layered with R in Lighten mode and the opacity adjusted to achieve the desired result.

I use a similar approach with Nb images which have been produced using PixelMath. I also use Annnie's Astro Actions in PS for Hubble Palette followed up by ColorMask in PI to reduce those magenta halos.

The Light Vortex tutorials are excellent and well worth investing time in working through; they give a great starting point from where you can experiment and try out various other processes and combinations of processes.

I should add that if I image using my DSLR then more often than not I preprocess in DSS putting different exposures in different Groups.

I've tried APP, AstroArt and StarTools as demo versions but I just didn't get on with them. PI is well worth the investment IMHO.

Good luck!

Adrian

 

[groberts]

If I may:

1. What is the support like for PI?
2. Is it updated very often?
3. Do you buy the licence and updates in perpetuity or is there an ongoing cost?
4. Does it work OK with Windows 7 or 10?
5. What would be the minimum processing power  required?
6. Can you download it on more than one computer and or when you change computer?

Thanks again, Graham

[steppenwolf]

If you are going to leave PS or even run it in tandem with other software, the choice has to be PixInsight.

[Droogie 2001]

I use PI and after a steep learning curve I am starting to achieve some satisfying results. But be aware my first outputs from PI were terrible. 
Take you time and save separate project files so you go easily go back and try other settings. 
I spend a lot long on post processing that capturing the original data. This can range from 5-10 hours in ,most cases. This may seem crazy and maybe down to me to still learning PI but I have found the results very rewarding.

[Oddsocks]

14 hours ago, groberts said:

If I may:

1. What is the support like for PI?
2. Is it updated very often?
3. Do you buy the licence and updates in perpetuity or is there an ongoing cost?
4. Does it work OK with Windows 7 or 10?
5. What would be the minimum processing power  required?
6. Can you download it on more than one computer and or when you change computer?

Thanks again, Graham

Hi Graham.

1. Pixinsight support is through both a dedicated support forum with hundreds of active contributors, most questions are answered in a few hours, or via a published email address direct to the developers. Problems with licensing, payments or something very unusual should be made via the email route, technical queries and operational issues are best, and quickest, handled via the forum.

https://pixinsight.com/forum/index.php

2. Historically, Pixinsight platform updates occured roughly twice a year in the early years of it’s release but as the software has matured the need for frequent updates has not been required and the number of regular platform updates has been reduced. The platform is built around a series of modules and individual modules are updated quite often, whenever you launch Pixinsight and are connected to the internet then it will automatically check for revised modules, or new additions, and download them to your computer for automatic installation the next time you start PI.

3. The license you buy is for the current platform 1.x and is valid for updates and additional modules, it has no expiry date and will never ‘stop working’ however eventually platform 2.x will be released and a new licence would have to be purchased if you wanted to upgrade. There is no current release date for platform 2.x and is not expected before 2020. Discounts or free upgrades will be available for purchasers of a 1.x license who find platform 2.x is released within a few months of their purchase but if they had their 1.x license for a few years then they would have to pay the full amount for a 2.x license. Exact details of the upgrade options and prices will be published when platform 2.x is nearer release.

4. Pixinsight works for any 64bit Windows OS from Windows 7 onwards, it is not supported for any 32bit Windows OS. It is also supported on Linux, Mac and FreeBSD.

5. Not so easy to answer Graham. PI is a very processor intensive application and the more powerful the processor then the faster it will complete a particular processing task. If time is not an important consideration then a fairly low power processor may suit you, personally I would look to run PI on at least a i5 processor with 16Gb RAM and a SSD hard drive but I know many will be working happily on hardware with a lower specification than this. It much depends on the size of the images you expect to work with. Large DSLR or CMOS cameras generate a lot of data to be processed where traditionally smaller CCD’s with smaller sensors have smaller data sets that can be processed much more quickly.

PI is only a 2D application so fast graphics cards are not necessary.

PI includes a benchmark test script and users are able to carry out a simple speed test on their hardware and add the results to a publicly accessible web page, the higher the number reported by the script the faster the computer can process images in PI, visit the web page, click on any result to see a brief report of the hardware and OS that generated the test, it will give you an idea of what you can expect.

 http://pixinsight.com/benchmark/

6. You can run Pixinsight on as many computers and different OS’s that you own. The license file that is sent to you can be copied into as many different systems as you like and has no limit on the number of installations.

The download repository is always accessible via your user account login where the latest platform installer for all the supported OS’s can be found and downloaded to any computer(s) you wish.

Hope the above has addressed your questions.

You will find much more information by visiting the Pixinsight home page > resources > FAQ.

http://pixinsight.com/faq/index.html

William.

[groberts]

Once again, many thanks to you all for your extensive comments & thoughts, which are very much appreciated. 

I feel myself being inexorably drawn (or pushed!) towards PI (or is that a cliff?).  Need to do a bit more homework first and then it's goodbye to my family -  5 to 10 hours! - and hopefully emerging with some better processed images later this century.

Graham     

[mountainmadman]

Hi Graham,

Depending where you are in the country, in my opinion it's well worth looking for a workshop based around PI to attend. I went to one last year with Gary Palmer. It was a full day workshop with theory covered in the morning. Then, he covered a solid, basic Pixinsight workflow in the afternoon. I found it really useful. You can ask questions and get some excellent tips throughout. I wrote pages of notes which I still refer back to.

http://www.astrocourses.co.uk/courselist.html

Also, Mitch (Astrodude on YouTube) has produced a really helpful 12 video series on Pixinsight for beginners. I learned huge amounts from this too.

Sure, PI takes some time to learn, but these two resources helped me significantly. Warren Keller's book is great to refer to as you start to build your own workflow.

Good luck!

Tony

[don4l]

I use CCDStack for calibration, stacking and initial image stretching.    It does its job very well and is very easy to use.  It can also do colour processing, but I don't find that side very useful.  There was a trial version the last time that I looked.  I bought it in 2007 and it has survived three laptop upgrades without problems (or cost).

I finish off in Picture Window Pro, which is now free.  This seems to do most, if not all, of what PS can do and seems easier to use.  I would highly recommend this.

 

I fancy getting APP for doing mosaics.

[Merlin66]

Before jumping off the PI cliff.......give AstroArt a go.

Trial version of the latest version 7 is now available.

I use it to control all my cameras an image processing. Works well for me.