Do CCD cameras 'wear out' ???

[Skipper Billy]

Just set my Atik 460 mono camera running to take a new set of darks for this seasons library and as the total time expected popped up with 27.5 hours the thought occurred to me - do CCD cameras eventually wear out and what is the expected service life ???

 

[PhotoGav]

Interesting question and I look forward to the replies! Personally, I have no idea... though 'normal' cameras generally have a quoted shutter release life, i.e. mechanically good for a number of actuations. There must be something similar in place for an astro CCD. I'm hoping the lifespan is very long though as my QSI is already a couple of years old and has seen plenty of use. As you say, quite a bit of that is shooting calibration frames!

[kens]

Fan bearings wear out, dessicant needs replacement, seals can perish, thermal stresses can break electrical connections.

[Macavity]

I understand some higher sensitivity CCDs develop "hot spots" etc.
These due to impact of Cosmic Rays on photo sensitive materials. ? 
This can be obviated via the "usual methods" of (classical) imaging?

[Dr_Ju_ju]

Yes, over time, there will be material\electron migrations within the devices caused by natural entropy \ external radiation etc.  which will cause the device to eventually fail.

It is better with silicon based products, but it used to occur with thermionic devices (vacuum tubes).

Most 'modern' electronic equipment will usually last the warranted life span, and even longer (lots), but in the end, old age will get it....

 

[Thalestris24]

58 minutes ago, Skipper Billy said:

Just set my Atik 460 mono camera running to take a new set of darks for this seasons library and as the total time expected popped up with 27.5 hours the thought occurred to me - do CCD cameras eventually wear out and what is the expected service life ???

 

Hi David

Typo with the exposure times / number of subs? Unlikely to be a camera age-related thing - how old is it? Try entering a shorter number of subs with nominal exposures e.g 10 x 60s/1min and see if the software computes correctly.

Louise

[tomato]

A good person to ask would be Olly Penrice. How long has he had his large format Atik cameras, and how many hours must they have  logged up? The anodizing looked pretty faded on them when I saw them a couple of years ago....

[daz]

10 minutes ago, Thalestris24 said:

Hi David

Typo with the exposure times / number of subs? Unlikely to be a camera age-related thing - how old is it? Try entering a shorter number of subs with nominal exposures e.g 10 x 60s/1min and see if the software computes correctly.

Louise

My own library will be just over 11 hours (11 exp x 1, 2, 5, 10, 15 and 30 mins) but I only do at -20. If OP is doing more exposures or more temp variations, I can see it easily being this long.

I do schedule mine to do at nights (cloudy ones!) so as not to run the cooling too hard, though...

 

[MarsG76]

I think that CCDs/CMOS sensors will outlive all of us when just used as intended..... wear and tear is not something to worry about.

 

[johninderby]

I have read that the CCD used in cameras have a lifespan of 20+ years so would be long obsolete before they wear out. 

[Alien 13]

Fascinating topic, I remember way back when people questioned the lifespan of the newly released solid state devices, think from memory that early transistors like the OC71 had a predicted life of around 80 years..

Alan

[Stub Mandrel]

Well...

Hubble Space Telescope was launched 28 years ago.

Opportunity Rover has been working nearly fifteen years in the radiation-rich environment of Mars.

They are both happily returning excellent CCD pictures!

[Dr_Ju_ju]

13 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

Fascinating topic, I remember way back when people questioned the lifespan of the newly released solid state devices, think from memory that early transistors like the OC71 had a predicted life of around 80 years..

Alan

and how many of those 'blew' in the 1st few months.....

[Alien 13]

Just now, Dr_Ju_ju said:

and how many of those 'blew' in the 1st few months.....

I had a few do that but they were delicate bits of kit back then.

Alan

[johninderby]

5 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Well...

Hubble Space Telescope was launched 28 years ago.

Opportunity Rover has been working nearly fifteen years in the radiation-rich environment of Mars.

They are both happily returning excellent CCD pictures!

Hubble had its wide field CCD replaced in 2009 along with a lot of other sensors.Also the NASA cameras are not ordinary hobbyist level ones but made to the highest possible specs so would hope they would last longer.

But anyway with the advances being made in imaging sensors obsolescence will come long before wearing out in the hobbyist field.

[Skipper Billy]

1 hour ago, Thalestris24 said:

Typo with the exposure times / number of subs? Unlikely to be a camera age-related thing - how old is it? Try entering a shorter number of subs with nominal exposures e.g 10 x 60s/1min and see if the software computes correctly.

Hi Louise

The time taken is probably right as I take full sets of 30 subs at all exp lengths and temps I am likely to use.

The camera is just fine but I wondered what the lifespan is likely to be.

[Stub Mandrel]

15 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Hubble had its wide field CCD replaced in 2009 along with a lot of other sensors.Also the NASA cameras are not ordinary hobbyist level ones but made to the highest possible specs so would hope they would last longer. 

But anyway with the advances being made in imaging sensors obsolescence will come long before wearing out in the hobbyist field.

But they aren't protected by the  atmosphere and most damage to electrical devices comes from cosmic rays.

[Jkulin]

Hi David, 27 hours for redoing your darks library sounds quite good, when my new G2-8300 arrived I let it churn away in my dining room redoing a complete new library at every variance of time that I required and it took 47 hours at an ADU of 25,000!

Technically like all photographic equipment, mechanical shutters can and do wear out as in the CCD for the 8300, I know with my photographic equipment (Leica, Nikon, Hasselblad and Mamiya) wear does happen even with my newer Leica and Nikon CCD's.

Pro's with CCD's in cameras regularly shoot 100K of images before sending them away for a full service, so with our probable average of say 10,000 actuations a year, I would have thought you were good for 5-8 years before major replacement/repair.

[Thalestris24]

1 hour ago, Skipper Billy said:

Hi Louise

The time taken is probably right as I take full sets of 30 subs at all exp lengths and temps I am likely to use.

The camera is just fine but I wondered what the lifespan is likely to be.

Sorry - I misinterpreted you're question. Unless a camera has a mechanical shutter I don't think us mortals have to worry about ccd lifespan too much!

Louise

[Skipper Billy]

This all sounds very positive so I don't feel quite so guilty now letting it sweat for so many hours !!!

The problem I have now is that my 460 will only cool to about 20º - 22º below ambient and its 16º in the obsy and my least cool setting is minus 10º !!!

My wife thinks I am bonkers for welcoming the nights drawing in - if I start wishing for cooler temperatures we will be having a rammy !!!

I think I will have to do it in batches over a few nights.

[Thalestris24]

Hmm… shouldn't you get 40 below ambient? Maybe the cooler needs some attention!

Louise

[Jkulin]

1 hour ago, Skipper Billy said:

This all sounds very positive so I don't feel quite so guilty now letting it sweat for so many hours !!!

The problem I have now is that my 460 will only cool to about 20º - 22º below ambient and its 16º in the obsy and my least cool setting is minus 10º !!!

My wife thinks I am bonkers for welcoming the nights drawing in - if I start wishing for cooler temperatures we will be having a rammy !!!

I think I will have to do it in batches over a few nights.

I had the cooler on my 383 pack in and it went to max and I'm told is the typical problem when the peltier packs up, Atik fixed and serviced it.

I always had problems getting my 383 down much further than -15 in the summer, no problem in the winter, The Moravian has no problems going to -20 during those hot days we had, as long as you can get it down to -15 then I woudln't worry David, winter will soon be here ?

[Skipper Billy]

42 minutes ago, Thalestris24 said:

Hmm… shouldn't you get 40 below ambient? Maybe the cooler needs some attention!

It was serviced not long ago by Atik and its always struggled to get any more than 20 - 22º below ambient.

I am researching a mono CCD with a bigger chip than the 460 at the moment and cooling will be an important consideration!

[RayD]

6 minutes ago, Skipper Billy said:

I am researching a mono CCD with a bigger chip than the 460 at the moment and cooling will be an important consideration!

I can highly recommend the Atik 16200.  I changed for cooling reasons alone as it is my main imaging camera in Spain and the 460ex struggled to get to 0 (it only has a -25 ΔT) , and it achieves -50 ΔT so I can image at -15 comfortably all year round.  I tried at -20 but it seems -15 is optimum as I really didn't see any discernible difference below this.

[Thalestris24]

1 hour ago, Skipper Billy said:

It was serviced not long ago by Atik and its always struggled to get any more than 20 - 22º below ambient.

I am researching a mono CCD with a bigger chip than the 460 at the moment and cooling will be an important consideration!

I see FLO's spec says delta t of -25 deg so not really good enough for summer but generally fine for winter

Louise