12"Dob or apm 100mm Ed apo. Which is best?

[GavStar]

4 minutes ago, Tubby Bear said:

Hi

I'm a big fan of Eddgie over on CN.

He is a big asset to that forum, and he taught me everything i know about binoviewing.

I'm certainly interested in EAA, but i'm not sure whether that stuff is legal over here in the UK ?

Yes you can get great Night vision astronomy setups legally in the UK now. Alanjgreen and I have made quite a few posts on this subject on SGL in the past few months. Search on night vision.

It’s the best way to overcome LP observing sites. But unfortunately expensive in the UK, (£6-7k for a complete setup plus you then need a scope to use it in).

(edit: I see Stu beat me to it - he’s quick!)

[Space Hopper]

Thanks Gav, i'll take a look.

£6 - 7K ?? ?

 

Thats my retirement scope fund blown right away ! ?

[Stu]

26 minutes ago, Whistlin Bob said:

shows in my light polluted back garden.

I guess one thing that is key is understanding levels of light pollution. In darker areas, some people complain about a few streetlights as LP, but the sky is still dark if you shield yourself from them, whereas in the cities the skies are just a horrid washed out grey or orange regardless of how you shield yourself.

@Roger2525 can you let us know what your skies are like? Naked Eye Limiting Magnitude or SQM reading etc?

[Timebandit]

 

The Gent wanted help with a decision on a possible 100ed or 12" Dob

 

And now we have gone onto Night vision gear at 6 to 7k a pop? ?

We certainly explore all the options on this site?

 

 

[Space Hopper]

Yes sorry, you are right.

 

I think the OP should buy both !!  ?

One scope can't do it all....

[John]

My back garden is moderately light polluted but I manage to see deep sky objects quite well with my 12" dob. I've even managed to glimpse the Horsehead Nebula with the help of quite a lot of practice and a H-Beta filter. I've seen loads of galaxies, clusters and nebulae as well. Many are just faint smudges of light and darker skies do improve things a lot but it's still thrilling to see them from my "back yard"

My 100mm-130mm refractors show DSO's as well but nowhere near as well as the 12" dob does. Setup time for the dob is as quick, if not quicker than for the refractors.

Even the 200mm dob would do quite a bit better on DSO's than a 100mm ED refractor, nice though these fracs are. Different tools for different tasks really although the dob shows the moon and planets pretty well too !

 

 

[Stargazer McCabe]

It might be worth highlighting that in his first post the OP was asking for views on a 12” Dob and APM 100mm ED Binoculars...

I think many have read the title to the thread and skipped through the first post a tad quickly, missing the binocular question...

[estwing]

54 minutes ago, GavStar said:

£6-7k for a complete setup plus you then need a scope to use it in

?...that's crazy money

[Stu]

4 minutes ago, estwing said:

?...that's crazy money

Perhaps Calvin, but I saw the Horsehead from my back garden with it so it does work. Best thing is, didn’t cost me a penny  

Seriously, if I had the cash I would buy NV.

[25585]

7 minutes ago, Stargazer McCabe said:

It might be worth highlighting that in his first post the OP was asking for views on a 12” Dob and APM 100mm ED Binoculars...

I think many have read the title to the thread and skipped through the first post a tad quickly, missing the binocular question...

Helios Lightquest 100mm binoculars look the same as APM's do.

A pair of those need a sturdy mounting head and tripod.

[GavStar]

4 minutes ago, estwing said:

?...that's crazy money

Yes it is! But then 130-140 APO refractors cost similar money. And imo the night vision provides a quantum leap forward in the views possible from a light polluted London back garden (18 sqm). The horsehead is a clear direct vision object and I’ve even seen the cone.

Here is how the horsehead looked one evening earlier this year in my London back garden with a 160mm scope.

This is all a bit off topic from the OPs question. However from a severely light polluted back garden the only way to get good views of more than just the brightest DSOs is to use NV. Normal scopes just won’t do it. 

Having done a few dark site visits I think this is the best cheapest way to get good DSO views - joining an Astro club helped get me to dark sites - always nice for me to observe in a group. That’s what I would recommend for the OP. I don’t think 100mm binoculars would be useful. A 12 inch dob is probably the best option of these two. 

But in summary, it’s either dark site or NV for DSO observing imo!

[scarp15]

If you do go for, as for example, a Skywatcher 12" flextube (manual), include the shroud and plan to make a dew shield out of foam matting. If you reckon with brighter DSO's such as featured in 'Turn Left at Orion', aim for these when located high up, consider wearing a hood, try at least to become a little dark adapted. Then if you can combine observing from home with joining an astro society and very occasional, reasonable distance, darker sky trips, the 12" flextube is quite transportable.  

[John]

54 minutes ago, GavStar said:

Yes it is! But then 130-140 APO refractors cost similar money. And imo the night vision provides a quantum leap forward in the views possible from a light polluted London back garden (18 sqm). The horsehead is a clear direct vision object and I’ve even seen the cone.

Here is how the horsehead looked one evening earlier this year in my London back garden with a 160mm scope.

This is all a bit off topic from the OPs question. However from a severely light polluted back garden the only way to get good views of more than just the brightest DSOs is to use NV. Normal scopes just won’t do it. 

Having done a few dark site visits I think this is the best cheapest way to get good DSO views - joining an Astro club helped get me to dark sites - always nice for me to observe in a group. That’s what I would recommend for the OP. I don’t think 100mm binoculars would be useful. A 12 inch dob is probably the best option of these two. 

But in summary, it’s either dark site or NV for DSO observing imo!

As many / most will not be able to contemplate an outlay of several £K, it's either travel to dark skies or don't do anything other than the brightest DSO's, if you live in a severely light polluted area. Thats the reality of it as I see things 

Even if the NV investment is made, it does not help with all astro targets as I understand it, so a  decent scope and eyepieces are still required for those.

It would be great if NV reduces in cost so it's no longer the preserve of the well heeled but I'm not sure thats going to happen anytime soon.

 

 

[Roger2525]

Wow I'm blown away with all this info! Thanks for all your advice. For the record, I would only use the 12" dob in the back garden and have a suitable shed so don't mind setting it up each night and I can now think about the binoviewer as well. I only thought about the APM binds cos I love the stereo view and ease of use although I do understand the mount and tripod would be expensive. Not sure about the magnitude but let's say that I cannot see the Milky Way through Cassiopeia. It's not the street lights just the polluted sky. Last year I went to the kielder observatory on the Scottish Borders . Now they have clear skies to die for!

As I will not be lugging the scope around with me I feel the 12" would be the best bet perhaps with the binoviewer. If I ever get to a dark site then I will take my Helios 15x70with me. I will give the larger apm binos a miss.

thanks for all your helpful advice.

 

[John]

1 hour ago, Stargazer McCabe said:

It might be worth highlighting that in his first post the OP was asking for views on a 12” Dob and APM 100mm ED Binoculars...

I think many have read the title to the thread and skipped through the first post a tad quickly, missing the binocular question...

Good point

Even more a case of different tools for different tasks then but I'd still go for the 8, 10 or 12 inch dob over the big binoculars for DSO's.

[GavStar]

13 minutes ago, John said:

Even if the NV investment is made, it does not help with all astro targets as I understand it, so a  decent scope and eyepieces are still required for those.

Of the different types of DSO, NV doesn't improve the views of reflection nebulae. For most other DSOs including Emission nebulae, globular clusters, planetary nebulae, and the majority of galaxies, NV does enhance the views significantly.

[John]

19 minutes ago, GavStar said:

Of the different types of DSO, NV doesn't improve the views of reflection nebulae. For most other DSOs including Emission nebulae, globular clusters, planetary nebulae, and the majority of galaxies, NV does enhance the views significantly.

Thats great - we just need to find the £10K and we are there !

 

[Paz]

Out of those options I'd go for the 12" dobsonian, I just think it will do so much more and for less cost. All other things being equal getting to darker sites gives better views if dso's in any scope but also all other things being equal more aperture can show more. I mostly view from my light polluted back yard and my 14" dobsonian gets well used looking at dso's, m13 is amazing to me even under lp, but it also gets used for its resolving power on planets, double stars, the moon, in fact anything except solar(!).

[niallk]

10 minutes ago, Paz said:

Out of those options I'd go for the 12" dobsonian, I just think it will do so much more and for less cost. All other things being equal getting to darker sites gives better views if dso's in any scope but also all other things being equal more aperture can show more. I mostly view from my light polluted back yard and my 14" dobsonian gets well used looking at dso's, m13 is amazing to me even under lp, but it also gets used for its resolving power on planets, double stars, the moon, in fact anything except solar(!).

+1 : a dob can be a very good performing all-rounder

[Louis D]

On 28/05/2018 at 14:26, GavStar said:

It’s the best way to overcome LP observing sites. But unfortunately expensive in the UK, (£6-7k for a complete setup plus you then need a scope to use it in).

Wow.  I was going by costs in the US for used tubes in the $1500 range up to new bino units around $3500.  This puts it in the price range of a 12.5" Obsession Dob for $3700.  I was just pointing out that, at least here in the states, if you are going to splash out $3000 to $4000, you could go with a used NV monocular for under $2000 and a used 12" Starmaster Dob for under $2000.  Those APM binos the OP referenced are approaching $3000, so that is the budget I was thinking about.  The combined NV unit and Dob would give the OP lots more observing options than the binos for similar money.  Starmaster used mirrors that delivered excellent planetary as well as DSO views, so an APO refractor would be less tempting later on.

I didn't realize how much more expensive NV in particular is in the UK.

[John]

22 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Wow.  I was going by costs in the US for used tubes in the $1500 range up to new bino units around $3500.  This puts it in the price range of a 12.5" Obsession Dob for $3700.  I was just pointing out that, at least here in the states, if you are going to splash out $3000 to $4000, you could go with a used NV monocular for under $2000 and a used 12" Starmaster Dob for under $2000.  Those APM binos the OP referenced are approaching $3000, so that is the budget I was thinking about.  The combined NV unit and Dob would give the OP lots more observing options than the binos for similar money.  Starmaster used mirrors that delivered excellent planetary as well as DSO views, so an APO refractor would be less tempting later on.

I didn't realize how much more expensive NV in particular is in the UK.

I think this might explain some of the issues in obtaining NV equipment outside of the USA:

https://www.atncorp.com/exportinformation

 

[Louis D]

12 hours ago, John said:

I think this might explain some of the issues in obtaining NV equipment outside of the USA:

https://www.atncorp.com/exportinformation

 

Sure, you can't get US units, but there should be UK, French, German, Eastern European, Russian, Chinese, etc. NV units out there.  Does every country that makes them have limitations on export?  The US might make the latest and greatest, but technology in this area evolves so fast that even a new non-US unit should be equivalent or better than a 5 year old US unit.

Back to the OP's quandary.  I didn't want them splashing out nearly $3000 on a pair of binos only to find out they still can't see DSOs very well from a light polluted location.  That might put them off of amateur astronomy altogether.