12"Dob or apm 100mm Ed apo. Which is best?

[Roger2525]

Hi I've sold my skywatcher 127 mak as fed up with motor drive and set up at night.

My skies are LP and my 15x70 bins don't show up DSO's!  Wanting to beef up my equipment so I can see something!

i like to sound of the skywatcher 12" dob as I hate motor drives and fancy nudging the scope. I also love using two eyes and the portability of bins and have read good reports on the APM 100mm ed apo bins. I appreciate the dob I can get for around £800 and the APM 100mm bins for £2,100. Of course I then have to splash out on a mount and tripod and two lots of eyepieces. Much more expensive but will it be worth it, bearing in mind my skies are polluted.

Any advice would be appreciated. 

[MarsG76]

A telescope will always show you more than binos... you can always get a bino viewer kit for the 12" dob.... but binos win out in portability.

[Stargazer McCabe]

Hi @Roger2525

You mention being interested in DSO targets. I’d venture the Dob would be the best bet, despite your skies. 

A 12” can be transported to a dark site relatively easily (perhaps not as easily as the APMs, but they too will require a substantial mounting arrangement). 

I love my big binoculars. But if I’m after particular Deep Sky targets it’s my 14” Dob that always gets set up, whether at home or somewhere darker...

[Timebandit]

 

I think it depends where your main interests are at present. If planetary and lunar are your main interests, then IMO I prefer the Crystal clear sharp views a frac give of planetary . A reflector will probably show more detail , but in a softer image quality.

If fainter DSO are your main interests. Then you need as much aperture as possible. To grasp as much light as possible. Therefore the 12" reflector is the way to go. 

But to get the best out of aperture for DSO then a Dark site really is required. And a 12" is a really big scope to start karting around easily. Maybe a 10" or 8 " reflector that can be easily transported would be worth a look.

I hope this helps

 

 

[Chris]

If your skies are light polluted to the extent that you can't see DSO's? then I'm not sure a big dob would help unless transporting to a dark site? 

Let us know what interests you, and if you want to observe from home or willing to travel, and I'm sure we can help  

[estwing]

1 hour ago, Timebandit said:

But to get the best out of aperture for DSO then a Dark site really is required

+1

[Obsession 30]

Got to be the 12” dob and you could always fit a bino viewer to it, will be a great bit of kit

[Roger2525]

Hi thanks for the interesting comments. Yes my skies are polluted. I can make out M13 in my 15x70 bins but that's all. I will only be observing from my back garden as I don't fancy travelling late at night. I really don't mind spending big money if I get a decent view but what I am gathering is that the money will be wasted on a polluted sky. 

My old skywatcher 127 mak gave me a good view of the moon but the bins are not as detailed. I'm thinking a 12" dob with hands on mount may be way forward! Thanks

[Roger2525]

Never thought of a Nino viewer. Will have to look into that. Great advice. Many thanks

[Roger2525]

It's the DSO ' s im really interested in.

[Stu]

If DSOs are your real interest then you do need to get to some darker skies. A 12” dob would be much better, provided you are able to travel and can be bothered to take it. If not then the binos would probably be better at a dark site than the dob at home.

[Space Hopper]

1 hour ago, Timebandit said:

 

I think it depends where your main interests are at present. If planetary and lunar are your main interests, then IMO I prefer the Crystal clear sharp views a frac give of planetary . A reflector will probably show more detail , but in a softer image quality.

If fainter DSO are your main interests. Then you need as much aperture as possible. To grasp as much light as possible. Therefore the 12" reflector is the way to go. 

But to get the best out of aperture for DSO then a Dark site really is required. And a 12" is a really big scope to start karting around easily. Maybe a 10" or 8 " reflector that can be easily transported would be worth a look.

I hope this helps

 

 

I agree. 100%

But with all planets lurking close to the horizon, or seemingly so, it takes the shine off planetary viewing a bit.

I've been using my 12" OO alot recently. Its a great scope, not too big, just enough aperture to keep me in the ball park

and it didn't cost silly money. Its fun to modify them and i'm loving the binoviewer experience i'm having too.

 

[estwing]

9 minutes ago, Roger2525 said:

I really don't mind spending big money if I get a decent view but what I am gathering is that the money will be wasted on a polluted sky. 

spend half the money on petrol....then buy a 10" dob

In good dark sky it will blow a 14" dob away....read this

 

[pete_l]

It's a quandary. If you want to eyeball DSOs then nothing beats aperture. So that would suggest a Dob. But then you say you don't like setting up. Hauling a Dob out every night can be a bit of a trial (and where would you store it? I have a 12-inch Dob - they aren't small!). Especially as a lot of physical movement leads to frequent recollimation.

Given that your 70mm bins don't "work" for DSOs, then moving up to 100mm ones will only get you 4x the light grab. So while that should give you some DSOs - Andromeda, the brighter stuff around Sagittarius and clusters, it won't provide the views that a 300mm Dob will give.

[25585]

Seems one extreme or the other. An 8 inch dob will be better for DSOs than a 6 or a 4 refractor. More portable & lighter. A 10 is still lighter than 12.

I am not sure how Newtonian focal lengths make it easier to use bino viewers, but longer FL ones will have smaller secondary mirrors so would presumably be less obstruction if your focus tube needed to be racked in. Can anyoneadvise on that?

[Space Hopper]

A longer focal length will tie you in to high magnification and narrow fov.

The main issue with Newtonians is over coming the LACK of in focus in the first place.

Several ways to get around this though.

A Powerswitch system (binoviewer) enables 3 different magnifications with one set of eyepieces.

I had a 5 hour session recently and i only used one pair of eyepieces all night.

[Chris]

12 minutes ago, pete_l said:

So while that should give you some DSOs - Andromeda, the brighter stuff around Sagittarius and clusters, it won't provide the views that a 300mm Dob will give.

My worry is that bad LP negates the benefit of aperture? And as he want's to observe from home and doesn't like setup faff maybe something like a 200p Dob would be a good compromise? f/6 is kind on collimation also, so less faff.

[Space Hopper]

Hard to say.

I can set up my scope  (OO VX12f4) in under 5 mins. I think the 12" short tube is a kind of sweet spot, with regard size , storage, decent aperture

I find collimating my F4 no more difficult than when i had my old VX10 f 6.3 and the shorter tube is much easier to manage.

 

[Whistlin Bob]

I'd go for the dob. I've had an 8" for several years and am very fond of it, but upgraded to 14" a few months ago and am blown away by what it shows in my light polluted back garden. I've spent the spring exploring Leo and Virgo galaxies. They can't be seen in the 8" without driving to a dark site. Can't wait to get the 14" to a dark site...

It does take around 15 mins to assemble and collimate...

[25585]

1 minute ago, Lockie said:

My worry is that bad LP negates the benefit of aperture? And as he want's to observe from home and doesn't like setup faff maybe something like a 200p Dob would be a good compromise? f/6 is kind on collimation also, so less faff.

I agree about F6. F5 is probably about the minimum, but 6 is less fussy.

A point about models. Going to 12 inches OTAs, you have as a complete scope; Orion Optics UK (solid tube), Skywatcher Flextube (which I doubt the OP would care for), or Orion UK (solid tube).

For 10 & 8 inch scopes SW do a complete solid tube dob, as the others, also Bresser Messier.

A 12 inch mirror has a 14 inch diameter OTA. A 10 has a 12 diameter tube & 8 a 10 inch tube diameter. Sticking at F5, the tube length increases by 10 inches for every extra 2 inches in aperture. So carrying by hand, let alone by car requires ability assessment.

Any particular types of DSOs?

 

[25585]

19 minutes ago, Tubby Bear said:

Hard to say.

I can set up my scope  (OO VX12f4) in under 5 mins. I think the 12" short tube is a kind of sweet spot, with regard size , storage, decent aperture

I find collimating my F4 no more difficult than when i had my old VX10 f 6.3 and the shorter tube is much easier to manage.

 

I will have a new VX10L F6.3 soon. While it will give slightly fainter views than my 12 F5, I hope it will be a good general purpose Dob for DSOs & solar system. Thinking of a scaffold table with marine ply top to raise its height about 10 inches.

[Space Hopper]

Thats what i like about the 12" short tube. Straightforward to lift and manoeuvre and it fits across the back seat of my car.

 

[Louis D]

If you've got a few grand to splash, you might look into night vision astronomy.  Search on the journey Eddgie on CN has taken through various high end fracs, large dobs, high end binoviewers, and now night vision gear.  He usually observes from a light polluted back yard not unlike much of UK urban skies.  He really prefers night vision gear now.

[Space Hopper]

Hi

I'm a big fan of Eddgie over on CN.

He is a big asset to that forum, and he taught me everything i know about binoviewing.

I'm certainly interested in EAA, but i'm not sure whether that stuff is legal over here in the UK ?

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, Tubby Bear said:

Hi

I'm a big fan of Eddgie over on CN.

He is a big asset to that forum, and he taught me everything i know about binoviewing.

I'm certainly interested in EAA, but i'm not sure whether that stuff is legal over here in the UK ?

It is legal, provided you buy the legal stuff! Seriously, exporting Gen 3 kit from the US is, I believe, what is illegal, there are European options which are almost as good now. Plenty of info on SGL now about this