Giving up imaging

[Olsin]

I'm giving up imaging before i even really got started with it. Way to much gear is needed and the frustration factor when your mount won't give a good solid polar alignment is just to much ... and at the end of the day, all i was trying to do is take pictures that hundreds if not thousands of others have already taken.
No matter how good my pictures could be, they are never going to beat professional astronomers takes from their monstrous telescopes and multi thousand money camera's.
It's like walking to a hilltop and taking pictures of all the houses, trees, roads and other landmarks from only one direction and then comparing them with other pictures taken from the same perspective of the same objects, taken by someone else.
Just feels like such a hollow pursuit so i'm giving it up and sticking to just visual from now on.

[Guest]

Olsin, the most important matter is, if you are happy or not with whatever you do, if you are not, then it is time to do changes, and you have totally right, ASTRO-IMAGING is frustrating or could be  a frustrating matter!  I on my end, I still did not reach the point to give up, despite the challenges I have, with weather and light polution or else..

In anyway good luck to you

 

Cheers

 

Martin

 

[eli71]

Why don't you start with Planetary Imaging? It's no so demanding and can be quite rewarding, and it's  a bit like hunting. Okey, there are lots of people hunting, und most of them are better than you and me. But I think there's a satisfation and enjoyment in hunting down the perfect day, with the perfect seeing,  the perfect set up, the perfect opposition day...and sharing with friends and family.

 

13 minutes ago, Olsin said:

 
It's like walking to a hilltop and taking pictures of all the houses, trees, roads and other landmarks from only one direction  
 

Exactly it's about enjoying the walking to a hilltop, and sharing... And as a Spanish poet said. "Traveler there is not path, ypu make it when you walk". 

[geordie85]

35 minutes ago, Olsin said:

 ... and at the end of the day, all i was trying to do is take pictures that hundreds if not thousands of others have already taken.
No matter how good my pictures could be, they are never going to beat professional astronomers takes from their monstrous telescopes and multi thousand money camera's.
 

I'm sorry and i mean no disrespect but I believe this is so wrong and a faulted view of the hobby. That would be like saying Olympians can run faster than me so I'm never going to run anywhere again.

Yes this hobby can be extremely frustrating and fruitless at times (I haven't managed to even get set up since may) but when it all comes together and I finally get an image I'm happy with, then it's all worth while.

But you've gotta do what's right/ most pleasing for you. It is just a hobby after all

[ollypenrice]

It's not compulsory and if you're not enjoying it, or it just isn't for you, then don't do it. Very wise.

However, I don't hold with this: 'and at the end of the day, all i was trying to do is take pictures that hundreds if not thousands of others have already taken.' I'd have thought that you were trying to take your picture, not someone else's. That's certainly what I try to do. Nor is it true that the professionals will always beat the amateurs. They generally don't have the time to devote to 'heritage' imaging, they often have way too much focal length and professional astronomers are not professional image-processers.

It is not, for me, the final image which is the motivator. It's the process of making it. Sure, I like to have another picture to share and put on my website but that's not why I do it. I do it because I like the process. I like excercising the craft, just as an amateur cabinet maker might enjoy making a chair.

It would be a shame if all amateur musicians stopped playing just because they weren't composing their own music or because the professionals were better than they were.

But, sure, if it ain't for you then it ain't. Visual observing is great.

Olly

Edit: Crossed with Geordie 85 but clearly we agree.

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Imaging can certainly be very frustrating, and perhaps it's not for you. However, I would disagree that treading the same path is the only option, even with very modest equipment it's possible to do something a little different and or which complements deep images. Here's a couple examples:

Comet 41P animation (135mm lens and DSLR).

Orion in Ha (50mm lens and DSLR).

It's true that many of my images are inferior sketches of commonly imaged DSOs, but this is true of most art and crafts hobbies. I write a little, and do so quite well, but there are legions of 'better' writers out there. I still find imaging these targets satisfying, going through the process gives me a better appreciation of other people's attempts and encourages me to investigate the astronomical theory in more detail.

I mostly image at short focal lengths and without guiding, which reduces the frustration factor. I want to do more telescoping imaging in the future but will need a run of good night to debug problems - but while I'm doing that my DSLR can click away.

[swag72]

I *think* I can see your point of view and I am sorry to hear that you are giving it up.....However even as an amateur you can produce images that you are proud of and create a style that you enjoy. 

I know that I can't match images from Hubble...... but I enjoy the challenge of what I do and feel that there is always room for improvement. We all have different reasons for doing this though, and if it doesn't work for you then calling it a day is one way of dealing with it.

[Juicy6]

AP is not a contest. I make pictures from polluted city with gear on balcony and lots of lamps outside. Rarely I bring all stuff to dark sites. Still I am satisfied with my photos and like the progress I can see from year to year. I hate to show my images to other hobby astronomers because there are so many details to improve. And I know this and don't like to be reminded. But I love to look at the results of my own work. And to show to people not into AP.

Christer, Sweden

[newbie alert]

Totally agree with the above post.. it's not a contest..people put up their pics because they're proud of what they've achieved..good or bad...maybe with a view to get some tips and helpful advice...

Someone I know got totally frustrated with what he was doing and said he was giving up..lots of people Inc me told him how good his images were and told him not to..luckly he took a step back for a while,recharged the batteries and is now kicking out some fantastic images...so maybe a break from it may do some good..or just do visual for a while..remember there's a good few targets that you can't see without imaging them.. it's all about enjoying it and self achievement..good luck in the future path 

[alacant]

Hi. I understand your frustration and glad you are not giving up astronomy totally.

For me, it's not so much the image at the end of the day, rather the challenge of the art which keeps me coming back. Indeed if it were easy, I doubt whether I'd put half as much time and effort into making it all work. My gf sums it up from another perspective, 'It's a good hobby because I know exactly where he'll be.'.

So, cheers, clear skies and keep those observing skills sharp.

 

[Gina]

I have taken quite a long break from imaging because I was getting stale and it was no longer exciting me.  This was partly due to the weather but also due to me and a health problem just recently diagnosed.  I'm not yet fully recovered but already feeling better.  I don't follow in the footsteps of others - I like to follow my own path and like to try things that few others have tried.  Like others who have posted above, I can't beat my betters on their terms but I can produce images that are different and beautiful in their own way.  Of course, I don't always succeed in what I want to achieve but as Olly has said, there is joy in processing the data you've captured and gradually teasing out detail and colour.

[Grotemobile]

The only thing I can image from were I  am , is Jupiter & Saturn. I just try to get better

pictures than the last time. I do enjoy doing it, which  a hobby is all about. 

[Robp]

I started small, webcam, cheap scope, no tracking and took images of the moon and planets. I did that for over a year. Fast forward Seven years and my skills have improved and my gear has slowly grown. My list of things I'd like to do keeps getting longer.

I think that you shouldn't be judging your results against what others have achieved. You should be judging your result on that which you have previously produced. You should be using the images you consider of better quality as inspiration. You should be looking at what others have achieved with the equipment you have and asking them how they managed to improve upon the images you have already taken.

Imaging isn't easy nor does it have to be expensive, but if you are not enjoying it then something else like visual observing is a wise choice. It is your hobby and should be enjoyable to you, otherwise there is no point in having it as a hobby .

[Gina]

Agreed   I too started small and worked my way up.  I too have been imaging for about 7 years and started with a webcam and cheap telescope with a tripod.  I was so thrilled with my webcam images of Saturn - little detail but you could see the rings   That was a revelation   Decent imaging equipment is much cheaper than it was and you can adjust your equipment to your budget and still get nice results.  If you try to be too ambitious at the start you are bound to be disappointed.  I've seen some superb images taken with low priced equipment but remember, practice makes perfect and if you achieve perfection first time it's a fluke

[Paul M]

Whatever angle you approach astronomy from, it's always about learning and honing new skills and developing an understanding of your subject and your methods.

I gave up on astrophotography in the days of wet film having never really started. Too much faff for me.

As with astrophotography you could argue that there is no point looking through a scope visually, because you'll just be seeing what someone else has already see and maybe they are a better visual observer too!

That doesn't matter. A novice might look through a telescope and be very disappointed with what they see. A seasoned observer might spend an hour picking out detail to just enjoy visually, to write about or maybe sketch. In some respects the investment is just as great. Your time and fulfilment are worth more than any equipment.

So if imaging isn't your bag, so what? Move on and see if there is some other aspect of the hobby that does grab you. Deep sky is where many people fall foul of their expectations. But there is so much more. Variable and double star observing. Planetary observing is rather dependant on what's available but still offers something most seasons.

Or be like me. Just stand under a dark sky and wonder. Aint no image going to compete with experiencing  the night sky with my own blood infused  instruments. See it, feel it hear it!

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Olsin said:

I'm giving up imaging before i even really got started with it. Way to much gear is needed and the frustration factor when your mount won't give a good solid polar alignment is just to much ... and at the end of the day, all i was trying to do is take pictures that hundreds if not thousands of others have already taken.
No matter how good my pictures could be, they are never going to beat professional astronomers takes from their monstrous telescopes and multi thousand money camera's.
It's like walking to a hilltop and taking pictures of all the houses, trees, roads and other landmarks from only one direction and then comparing them with other pictures taken from the same perspective of the same objects, taken by someone else.
Just feels like such a hollow pursuit so i'm giving it up and sticking to just visual from now on.

I have learnt, from bitter experience as an employer, that the worst thing you can do is persuade someone to keep doing something their heart isn't really in to.

For me, I struggle to use an eyepiece comfortably for any length of time so astrophotography is really the only way I can enjoy seeing things!

But really for me it's about meeting and overcoming challenges on a budget - something that characterises my approach to all my hobbies.

If I had been able to buy a whole shedload of super-duper kit, figure out the wiring and press 'go' then collect the images in the morning, I suspect I might have ended up feeling the same as you.

 

[Gina]

That's me too Neil   I've already enjoyed seeing solar prominences for the first time in an eyepiece but I too can't stare through an eyepiece for very long however great the image might be.  And I think most people on here know I like overcoming challenges on a budget.  Anything that isn't a struggle is just boring!!

[Stu]

One thing I push back on quite strongly is the perception that starting imaging is a natural progression once you are done with visual, or that visual observing is in some way a poor relation to imaging.

I am, and always have been a visual observer, and for me the interest, the wonder if you like, is actually seeing objects for myself; the experience of the photons hitting my retina. It gives me the connection with what I am looking at.

I love looking at the images posted on the forum, they are incredible and I have the utmost respect for those that do it, but imaging is just not for me. I spend enough time in front of a PC at work and want to be able to relax with my hobby.

Visual astronomy is still challenging in this country given the weather and regular poor seeing, so it still requires determination and commitment to keep at it.

The point of my post? Well hopefully it is obvious; don't feel in anyway that you are failing by stopping imaging, take part in the hobby exactly as you want to and do what you enjoy. More people are enjoying sketching these days which is a great way of developing your observing skills, and you could also consider solar observing if the night time weather is not playing ball.

[Olsin]

Crikey, i didn't expect so much response.
I spent 1500 quid on scope and mount (8"sct + AVX) expecting it to live up to specs.
Unfortunately my mount won't hold it's polar alignment. I can get it dead on but as soon as the motors have moved the tube around, it's lost....and yes, i've checked, double checked and triple checked everything. Mount is standing on very stable concrete plus it's got extra weight hanging from it to lower it's center of gravity and keep it more stable. RA/Dec screws are tightened and i don't touch the scope/mount once PA'd. Some people have been lucky with their AVX's, some haven't...I'm one of those that brought a lemon.
Purchasing additional equipment for imaging, ie guide scope and cam seems a waste of time if the mount can't hold it's polar alignment.
So i guess what i'm really doing is just trying to make myself feel better. If my mount won't allow me to obtain decent images, then by golly i won't bother and i'll even find a reason why imaging is a waste of time to boot.
Truth is though, i really wanted to image DSO'S ... i'm just so disappointed that my crappy junk mount won't allow me to. It's raised a bitterness in me that doesn't want to subside.

[swag72]

Is your mount purchased new? If so then there will be some recourse with the retailer if there's a fault.

 

[Gina]

I agree with Stu - each to his or her own   I don't wish to knock observing and have done a little myself but I have alway been keen on recording what I see right from an early age when it was monochrome (shades of grey) film photography.  I started off with a Box Brownie and now use a DSLR.  So I've had a lifetime (well not yet :D) of imaging in one form of another and still enjoy it.  I've also had a life of making things though that's a slightly different matter.  I could combine observing with another pastime - watercolour painting but...

[Gina]

If you're really interested in imaging I wholeheartedly recommend the book "Making Every Photon Count" by Steve Richards - best twenty quid I've ever spent.  Steve is a member here calling himself "Steppenwolf".  The book is available from FLO or direct from Steve.  Read it and it should save you a lot of money by not buying the wrong kit as well as imparting a lot of very useful knowledge.

P.S. - I make no apology for repeating this advice.  Always worth repeating...

[Robp]

8 minutes ago, Olsin said:

Crikey, i didn't expect so much response.
I spent 1500 quid on scope and mount (8"sct + AVX) expecting it to live up to specs.
Unfortunately my mount won't hold it's polar alignment. I can get it dead on but as soon as the motors have moved the tube around, it's lost....and yes, i've checked, double checked and triple checked everything. Mount is standing on very stable concrete plus it's got extra weight hanging from it to lower it's center of gravity and keep it more stable. RA/Dec screws are tightened and i don't touch the scope/mount once PA'd. Some people have been lucky with their AVX's, some haven't...I'm one of those that brought a lemon.
Purchasing additional equipment for imaging, ie guide scope and cam seems a waste of time if the mount can't hold it's polar alignment.
So i guess what i'm really doing is just trying to make myself feel better. If my mount won't allow me to obtain decent images, then by golly i won't bother and i'll even find a reason why imaging is a waste of time to boot.
Truth is though, i really wanted to image DSO'S ... i'm just so disappointed that my crappy junk mount won't allow me to. It's raised a bitterness in me that doesn't want to subside.

Are you saying that when the scope slews round, the polar alignment is changed, or do you mean that the scope isn't pointing to where it should when the slew has finished?

Guiding is really a must for long exposure imaging as you need incredible accuracy to maintain round stars. My mount could achieve a couple of minutes of exposures without guiding before star trailing. With guiding I can go over 20 minute exposures without trailing. It was either that, or go for a permanent mounted insanely more expensive and accurate mount. I went for the <£200 option.

[Stu]

14 minutes ago, Gina said:

 

Crikey, i didn't expect so much response.
I spent 1500 quid on scope and mount (8"sct + AVX)

 

Good old SGL, you can always trust us to give an opinion  

On the above I would quote a rather politically incorrect joke where someone asks a person how to get to, let's say Newcastle. The person replies, 'well, if I wanted to get to Newcastle I definitely would not start from here!'  

As a visual observer, I still read with interest the imaging forums and questions from new starters and the advice given. I've been around here for a while, and have read quite a few of them....

On that basis, IF I were ever to start imaging I would buy an HEQ5 or EQ6 and an ED80 with a reducer/flattener. That is by far the most recommended combination and gives a great balance between mount stability and relatively short focal length to make long exposures achievable. The weight and longer focal length of the SCT makes it much harder to get started with.

What you have got however makes a great visual setup, plus as has been suggested a good place to start planetary imaging.

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

One thing I push back on quite strongly is the perception that starting imaging is a natural progression once you are done with visual, or that visual observing is in some way a poor relation to imaging.

Absolutely, well said.

I also find people's pencil and pastel sketches just as (or more) engaging as photographs.

The danger with imaging is it can become too much about the gear.