Giving up imaging

[TimB]

Could imaging be another art form?. So one person makes an image the way he/she likes then shows it off if happy to do so. Maybe a section for the perfect fuzz? Or the most elegently elongated stars? Or add a bit of Color here or there? Maybe a bit silly I know, but science and art can hang out together.?

 

[happy-kat]

If it were me before walking away I'd take that heavy sct off and instead just put a camera with lens on your mount. You may find PA sticks. Aim the camera at something like m31 and image away. M31 fits nice on a 135mm lens. See if that works and you enjoy what you achieve. I have a red dot finder in the DSLR flash hot shoe so I align with that.

[kendg]

Very interesting thread. 

As for (to paraphrase) taking pictures that others have taken. It's true, but once in a while someone discovers something that the professionals miss. I think about a year ago or some an amateur discovered a galaxy that had been missed.

As for why I do it, it gets too damn cold here in the winter to do visual observing and it's nice to look at the images I'm capturing from the warmth of my living room 

 

[ollypenrice]

I want us to get to the bottom of this PA business! Come on SGL, this can't be difficult!!! I'm going to be very honest and say that I'm doubtful about the case as it is described. I suspect a hidden misconception - but may be wrong.

I can only think of the following candidates for a drfiting PA.

1 Ground unstable.

2 Tripod leg extenders slipping.

3 Tripod spreader plate not tight enough and giving a jump after a while.

3 Mount head not tight on tripod.

4 Azimuth adjustment 'opposed bolts' not both in contact with the part of the mount on which they push once aligned.

5 Azimuth lock bolts not tightened down once aligned.

6 Altitude 'opposed bolts' not both in contact as in 4 above.

7 Altitude lock bolt not tight as in 5 above.

These are all obvious and easy to check and, quite honestly, I'm sure the OP has checked them, which leads me to ask for a more detailed explanation of what leads to the conviction that PA is not holding.

So, just to be dead clear, could you take us through what happens when you try to use the mount. Take it one step at a time just describing what you do and what happens next.

Olly

[spillage]

17 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

I have a red dot finder in the DSLR flash hot shoe so I align with that.

If you are connecting the mount to a pc then you could use platesolve to get accurately get you on a target. I am sure APT should work.

You make not mention of any guide scopes. This really is a must for long exposure imaging as already mentioned and some folks actually make their PA slightly our to help with guiding.

Try giving m31 a shot as this can be done with short exposure times and get good results.

Like most here its the race that I find interesting not the position I finish. Getting to play with mechanical and electronic issues is just right up my street plus the bonus of having a nice image to look at in the end.

Do not get concerned about other peoples results just enjoy your own and over time you will start to see improvements which keep you moving forward.

If you have a webcam give planetary a go first of all and do not try rushing things. The objects we there for a while yet.

[alacant]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

The danger with imaging is it can become too much about the gear.

+1. It's perhaps best not to reveal what hardware you're using. Like your good-self, I find finding alternative methods of imaging helps to diversify the art. The perceived perfection leads to everyone's snaps looking the same; I think this applies to the OP as much as it did to myself when I first began. Cheers and clear skies.

[geordie85]

I'm curious to know (like Olly) how your PA is changing once you've slewed.

Are you polar aligning then mounting your scope or is it already on your mount before you polar align?  If it's the first option, this could be your cause as the weight of the scope will affect your mounts polar alignment 

[Erla]

Olsin, it's not a competition, it's a hobby. If you find it's not for you - fair enough. But if you get a kick from whatever pictures (or progress) you make, with whatever equipment - who cares if someone did better? Noone will surpass probes or Hubble, so all amateur astronomers should beat themselves? Nope. If you made an aircraft, for example, that flew like 100 yards - would you be disappointed? Yeah, it's not a concord but c'mon, that would be awesome! The same is with everything. I personally liked some photos on stupod thread. Yeah, this hobby requires a bit of masochistic traits in ones character, but if you do just for the hell of it - it's fun. 

[ronin]

I think the first thing is that unless you are almost compulsive then "just go getting images". Don't try to get the best, that takes a lot of time and a lot of equipment and therefore money.

I know one serious imager and I suspect know I would never get the results he does, BUT getting those images is what keeps him happy, Cannot point you to any of theirs as they do not put them up anywhere but they are good very good. I also know the set up used is a permanent observatory and some very expensive kit.

Time is a big factor. And that also drags in patience and I do not have the patience, especially after almost a life of working on computers I just do not want to sit in front of another generating an image. Add in I have sort of zero artistic insight for me it just doesn't work. I can tell a good image - well within reason - but couldn't produce one.

Having said that how about a simple lightweight rig and an OSC camera? Head out set up get a bucket full of relatively short expopsure say 60 seconds and basically play with them. Nothing serious (serious = crazy) but fairly simple straight forward images to show what the sky holds. That will reduce the time involvement, the monetary cost in equipment etc, basically the complexity.

I guess it is very easy to get dragged into something that gets too complicated to be worthwhile. Bit like scopes, it is always get bigger, get larger. Strange that at public nights people seem to amble to the small and the one object to get a "wow" is the moon. It is not a 12" or 16" and say the ring nebula, but an 80mm and the moon. This is or can be a strange hobby.

But think about a small equitorial rig and an OSC (DSLR?), and step back and get a few nice easy images. If that doesn't feel as if you want to try anymore then enjoy the visual.

[saac]

6 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

It's not compulsory and if you're not enjoying it, or it just isn't for you, then don't do it. 

Olly

Edit: Crossed with Geordie 85 but clearly we agree.

 

4 hours ago, Gina said:

 Anything that isn't a struggle is just boring!!

Two comments which hit the nail on the head.  

 

Jim

[Stub Mandrel]

On 25/08/2017 at 11:22, ollypenrice said:

It would be a shame if all amateur musicians stopped playing just because they weren't composing their own music or because the professionals were better than they were.

Excellent point.

I would also endorse several people's comments to the effect 'if it's a hobby you should only be competing against yourself'.

I would give up my hobby of model engineering today if I thought I had to 'compete' with Cherry Hill. I don't think anyone comes close to her level of skill, yet she is always quick to praise and compliment the beginner:

[Grotemobile]

I have never ever bothered to do a proper polar alignment. I have a old CG-5 mount. All I do is make sure the mount is pointing North

& is level. I use a compass for this .  51 deg is the alt. Switch on , date , time . Select solar system alignment. I usually use Jupiter or

Saturn. It will then swing over to near the planet. I then do a final alignment using the planet. It will track for about 3mins  before starting

to drift. My camera runs about 100fps on Jupiter. More than enough time. DSO imaging , is in a different league , to planetary imaging .

[Adam J]

I dont agree with what you are saying at all about it not being worth while just because you can look at Hubble images online.

But its a complex hobby that requires persistence and technical knowledge to get the best results. I have seen people go out and purchase very expensive kit right from their first week in the hobby expensive mounts scopes and CCD cameras and inevitably they fail to produce images on par with an experienced imager using a eq3 and a cheap DSLR with camera lens.

I have to be honest and say that in all likelihood there is nothing wrong with your mount. The AVX is a decent mount from what I can gather and should be able to deliver 2min subs as a minimum unguided and maybe up to 5 min subs if you drift align it and balance with care.

If you see problems as a frustration as opposed to a challenge then this hobby really really is not for you. Same thing for people who expect to throw money at the hobby and get great images without any effort involved. For me, if it was easy then thats the point at which it would become pointless.

As a final point I am sure that the European southern observatory would never employ someone who had never used a scope before because if its not got a 9 meter aperture at 10000ft at a pitch dark site then whats the point right?

[TareqPhoto]

Your thread was same my feeling while ago, i also started this year on February, but i bought my first mount and first scope on April, and until now i didn't image anything worthy, so i was also thinking about giving up, and i live in light pollution urban, and same like you, i keep looking at those Hubble quality images and telling myself "No way i reach that level" so i feel i want to give up so quick even before i start.

I spend almost same like you, i still have ST80 as my only scope, imaging, and this scope regardless how good reviews about it but it is not on par to any cheap APO scopes, so i even can't start with not capable scope, my mount is nice but i don't know how to polar alignment, so because of this mount i decided i won't give up just yet, i gave up on my ST80 for sure, but i did another mistake and bought a mono astro cooled camera, so this may give my dirty cheap scope some kind of life, so i am still trying to keep going and see if i will fail later or not.

I just got a budget so i will order Ha filter, almost 99% or say 100% recommended me to start with this filter under my LP yard, so if i get this filter as soon as possible after i place an order then my hope may increase more or say my frustration will be less, i know i won't end up with mind blowing images just yet, but i have a feeling no one started with those images anyway even with great gear from beginning, many told me it is steep learning curve field, so if that is the case then i should learn to be patient, and it is funny if you live in a better conditions [exclude the clouds issue] than me and you will give up, then what should i do, commit a suicide? 

Someone in another forum or site sent me a private message asking me to start a challenge about whom will get a nice DSO images first, funny i wasn't have any gear yet and he already showed me nice DSO by himself, i really don't know what is the point of this challenge then, but i was happy that he was trying hard with me not to give up, so how about i start a challenge with you? i also started, i am trying to solve my PC issues with the cameras, and i still wait my PoleMaster which i ordered last month and still didn't show up, most likely i will call to complain or file a case as they told me i have to wait 45 days by shipping, it was shipped by 11 July from the store, so did we reach 45 days already? And i will order the filter today hopefully then i have to wait too, it means i will start by next month at most, and i don't expect i will end up with anything good yet, i also failed with polar alignment completely, means i can't do any long exposure DSO yet, give it a try and i will start later and let's see what we will end up with, if you give up that quick regardless of what you have then i shouldn't hold any hope myself here, i am focusing on 3 objects in the sky, Orion zone[M42+Horsehead], M45, and Cygnus zone.

[TareqPhoto]

Also i forgot to add, you have 8" SCT, imaging can be many things, not necessary DSO, why not start with the moon, planets and the sun?

I wish i have big aperture scope to do planets regardless it is not my main plan, but i added it to my plan recently about 2-3 months ago, so i will be happy to have nice sharp images of planets too, and the moon i was shooting in the past thousands of times, but i got just acceptable to nice results but never as good as some with astro gear, so i think the moon is an easy target to practice at, try to have nice moon images for now, and i you add Barlow then you can practice on planets too, and if you have solar filter then add the sun, once you are fine and done with those they slowly move to DSO, but a wide field scope for that, or i think you can try with your 8" sometimes, i love photography and astro photography wasn't in my plan even i was interested in night sky in the past, so now with my gear i won't just go with visual path, even if i do visual my inner demon will tell me to start astrophotography immediately, so i better starts sooner than later whenever i can.

I was thinking it is easy mission of AP, and i thought getting expensive gear will help, well, for now i didn't start i can't judge, but sounds i underestimate this AP overall, so now i am trying to understand and learn my gear first more, i learn about acquisition and processing more, i read more about gear, i study or learn the sky more, so i hope in soon time when i am ready i can see what i will end up, if i get nice good budget i will definitely buy another scope and i am planning to have a long/large aperture one so i start planet imaging, DSO can wait, the winter will come within 2-3 months later, and this year i think i will make it for equipment collecting, and next year it will be my serious AP going, And when i look at my current gear i have and see others have same or even less than what i have i get that fire inside me to do same or better than them, many quality images don'e with EQ3-EQ5 mounts and cameras less than my QHY163M, so all what i need to do is to trust my gear, and Denmark isn't worse than my country, we have heat and dust and strong sun and light pollution stronger than you, i see your only problem regardless the LP is clouds, no clouds then the heaven is above you not us.

[uhb1966]

Well, sorry to hear that youre giving up!

I had some pretty rough months myself: (extremely bad weather + lots of work) = no imaging since end of december! In fact, this is the worst 8 month streak for many years, with some two good weekends hitting full moon. And also lots of haze this summer - even on good nights  - no idea what's the reason. But i still hope for the rest of the year.

I have an advice for you: maybe just wait a few months? Maybe you get back into it.

And: it's really no contest - it's impossible to beat, let's say, the hubble telescope. We all just do it for ourselves...  But hey, take a look at astronomy pictures from the seventies! You really can do better than professional astromers who worked hard just a few decades ago.

   

[tomato]

For sure, the frustration levels in imaging are high, after reasonable results with OSC I have 'upgraded' to mono and filters and so far cannot get a darned thing right. But the night sky is always there (above the clouds most of the time) to be enjoyed whichever way you want. On nights when the gear just won't work I throw the switch and just look up...

On the specific point of the PA, there is something not right which can be fixed, there are some very good pointers already posted which will help. 

[Shera]

This is the only hobby where I have literally stood scratching my head. I was feeling like giving it up but I realised that I was focussing too much on the technical and not enough on just being out on a clear night or looking for an image that included other things to add interest. I actually felt like I had fun the other night trying to capture Delphinus, Sagitta and the Coathanger. They turned out crap so I was disappointed but I went out again last night and tried again and this time I discovered about continuous shots on my camera and focussing in on stars using my lens. Will the photos be crap? Probably. But I think I am slowly learning.

[ronin]

Olsin, the loss of polar alignment is a bit of a puzzle. You seem to know what you are doing but equally it sort of reads that you have fallen into the idea of aiming the scope at Polaris and not necessarily therefore the mount at Polaris. I suppose that if you are polar aligning the mount then adding the scope that the mount is getting moved a bit, the scope is not a small one.

The scope is not the best idea, nice for vicual, but a small, shorter and wider one may be better but that means cost.

If you are using a DSLR then take the scope off add a 100-200mm lens, polar align the mount (reasonably) put DSLR on the mount and take a series of 30 to 60 second shots of the milky way. Then stack them. When getting the exposures take binoculars and have a look around. 20 exposures of 30 seconds and a 30 second wait between means 20 minutes of just looking around the sky.

[RAWBob]

Its the challenge that I find to be the most interesting part of the whole process.  I'm just getting started, but I've been photographing everything else except the night sky for years.  Its no mean feat to get what everyone else considers to be a acceptable shot of anything, let alone a nebula or the milky way, but don't give up!  Just take a break, read a little, ask for advice here (I have and it's been a great place to start), then go back and start over.  When you do get a good shot, as everyone here said, it is very satisfying.  You should be doing it for yourself first, everyone else later.  You have the gear, so you are 90% there.  I admit it is a very steep learning curve but well worth it in the end.  Or, take up golf if you want a really frustrating hobby.

Bob