Orion Optics Hilux Coatings?

[mikeDnight]

My question arises following a discussion over the weekend with other observers. The question is "What are the mysterious Hilux coatings that Orion Optics offer as an option on their mirrors?"  Hilux implying enhanced reflectivity!  It seems that no one else offers this particular coating, and I find it hard to believe that OO have developed some special coating for their scopes. If anyone could shed light on this issue, I and my observing friends would be grateful.

Mike

 

[Moonshane]

I am not convinced about increased performance but the coatings do seem long lasting. That said so do skywatcher's

[Peter Drew]

OO's Hilux blurb states that the mirrors have several alternate high vacuum deposited layers of dioxides of silicon and titanium which permit more light to be reflected from the optical surface. There is no doubt that the "colour" of the Hilux coatings looks different to standard aluminising. I don't think the service has been offered long enough to test the full warranty but I have an eleven inch minor axis diagonal mirror that was coated with Hilux several years ago and it still looks good.   l

[Scooot]

I think hilux is just the term OO use to describe their enhanced mirror coating. I think others do it, or something very similar but dont call it Hilux.

This link is good reading and explains metal mirror coatings quite well.

https://www.edmundoptics.com/resources/application-notes/optics/metallic-mirror-coatings/

just found this uk company that seem to do something similar as well

https://www.knightoptical.com/services/optical-coatings/enhanced-aluminium/

[DRT]

1 hour ago, mikeDnight said:

I find it hard to believe that OO have developed some special coating for their scopes.

Having visited their factory, which in part looked like a chemical lab, I wouldn't find that too hard to believe.

I think this is simply a case of manufacturers giving their own brand name to a process which produces variations on a theme. 

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, Scooot said:

I think hilux is just the term OO use to describe their enhanced mirror coating. I think others do it, or something very similar but dont call it Hilux.

This link is good reading and explains metal mirror coatings quite well.

https://www.edmundoptics.com/resources/application-notes/optics/metallic-mirror-coatings/

just found this uk company that seem to do something similar as well

https://www.knightoptical.com/services/optical-coatings/enhanced-aluminium/

Thanks for the links Richard. They make for some interesting reading. The 8" F10 by Edmunds caught my eye but it would have to wait a while before I dived into a home grown project.

Mike 

[Scooot]

After reading all the blurb there's no doubt in my mind an enhanced aluminium coating is desirable. Reflected light seems to be between 5 & 7% more than a standard coating when new. So a 10" standard coating is equivalent to a 10.25 to 10.5" enhanced coating (if my maths is correct). However if I'm understanding correctly, because a standard coating deteriorates more quickly over time this difference becomes more pronounced as the scopes get older? In addition the enhanced coating is easier to handle safely, easier to clean and harder to scratch. 

[Stu]

I had the primary recoated from my 6" Newt (a long time ago!!)

On an entirely scientific and measurable basis, I 'thought it looked brighter than before'

That is all  

[niallk]

OMI mirrors also have 'enhanced coatings' (scroll to the bottom of the page - there's a chart comparing the reflectivity of 'enhanced' and 'plain aluminium' coatings vs wavelength):

http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/optics/index.php

[Scooot]

7 minutes ago, niallk said:

OMI mirrors also have 'enhanced coatings' (scroll to the bottom of the page - there's a chart comparing the reflectivity of 'enhanced' and 'plain aluminium' coatings vs wavelength):

http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/optics/index.php

I think their "extra 2" for free" statement might be a tad exaggerated  

[estwing]

Here's my mirror 2 years after a hi- lux coating that on their website claimed it might last upto 25 years....

[DRT]

But wasn't that sorted out when you returned it, Calvin  

[estwing]

Simonfromsussex had the same issue with his...storage in a shed was the explanation given and a re-coat was offered at a discount. My mirror is now kept indoors 

[estwing]

4 minutes ago, DRT said:

But wasn't that sorted out when you returned it, Calvin  

Not for free it wasn't...

[Scooot]

9 minutes ago, estwing said:

Here's my mirror 2 years after a hi- lux coating that on their website claimed it might last upto 25 years....

Maybe OO didn't do it properly? Or maybe a standard coating would have looked worse.

Either way, according to optic manufacturers literature, enhanced aluminium coatings offer better protection and reflectivity than standard coatings.

[HD-AP]

Hi 

I have a 12 inch ae optics mirror with a hilux coating 12 years old still looks ok !  That said i have a fullerscopes 10 inch david hinds mirror from 1976 that hasn't been re -coated  looks good probably not as reflective as new but looks new and works well to date !! respect

[niallk]

34 minutes ago, Scooot said:

I think their "extra 2" for free" statement might be a tad exaggerated  

Yeah - it depends on the aperture...

At 550nm: 92% vs 76% from the chart.

For my 15" for example:

√(92/76) * 15" = 16.5"

ie +1.5" aperture 'equivalent' for light gathered (not resolution). So the +2" comment applies to 20" mirrors or above.

[Scooot]

 

9 minutes ago, niallk said:

Yeah - it depends on the aperture...

At 550nm: 92% vs 76% from the chart.

For my 15" for example:

√(92/76) * 15" = 16.5"

ie +1.5" aperture 'equivalent' for light gathered (not resolution). So the +2" comment applies to 20" mirrors or above.

My mistake, I thought they should compare the area of the mirror, not the diameter.  

[niallk]

5 hours ago, Moonshane said:

I am not convinced about increased performance but the coatings do seem long lasting. That said so do skywatcher's

My 10" Skywatcher/Synta mirror is over 8yrs old now, and still looks perfect! I placed a light bulb behind it, and nothing.  I did the same with my 15", then wish I hadn't... Lots of pinholes it seemed.

Perhaps SW coatings are quite thick, and I've read 'premium' mirror coatings are kept purposefully thin to preserve figure? Don't know what the real story is!  I just try not to worry about my 15": it looks perfect to the eye in daylight - and gives nice views at night

I posted here at the time, and was told the solution was to keep bright light bulbs away from my mirror 

[niallk]

2 minutes ago, Scooot said:

 

My mistake, I thought they should compare the area of the mirror, not the diameter.  

Unless I've done it wrong, it is area: that's the square root of (92/76) ...

Or put the other way in terms of ratios of area: 16.5^2 / 15^2 = 92 / 76

[Scooot]

Just now, niallk said:

Unless I've done it wrong, it is area: that's the square root of (92/76) ...

Or put the other way in terms of ratios of area: 16.5^2 / 15^2 = 92 / 76

No it's me, I'm fixed in my mind that the reflective difference is only about 5% to 7%, not the 16% the 76 to 92 impies. 

[cotterless45]

Several years ago I put up our shed and kept scopes in there. Checking the mirrors , even with doors open to air it, I found that dew was forming and staying on mirrors for some time. I quickly got some 6v reptile heating pads and put these on the base of the primaries. These keep a gentle low heat and have avoided any signs of insidious humidity. It is this that might affect the life of your optics,

Nick.

[niallk]

2 minutes ago, Scooot said:

No it's me, I'm fixed in my mind that the reflective difference is only about 5% to 7%, not the 16% the 76 to 92 impies. 

Yeah, the webpage compares to enhanced coatings of 96% reflectivity to a claimed 88% standard.

For primary + secondary:

0.96 * 0.96 = 0.92 (enhanced)

0.88 * 0.88 = 0.77 (claimed for std)

This gives the 92 / 77 or approx 10% 'effective' aperture diameter increase claim.

I have no idea if the 88% is representative of say my Synta mirrors, or are they perhaps higher in reality...?

There are a lot of "marketing" statements and claims for sure though on the Obsession website!!! 

[faulksy]

i love 00. you can all  believe what you want and i will believe the truth

[estwing]

4 minutes ago, faulksy said:

i love 00. you can all  believe what you want and i will believe the truth

What was it 22 weeks that you kept believing?