Disappointment with latest purchase, am i doing something wrong?

[D4V1D88]

HI all,

Since hearing it is possible to see the rings of Saturn and the colours of different planets from your own back yard using a telescope I have been hooked. I bought my first telescope about 4 months ago and have loved every minute of it. I have learnt purely from the internet and I do feel I have a good basic understanding. I have never consulted anyone so I am aware some of the things I say could be completely wrong - please let me know if this is the case! The telescope came with a 20mm and a 10mm eyepiece - I quickly realised these weren't good enough lenses and calculated that a 4mm or 6mm eyepiece would be the max usable magnification I could get out of this £250.00 telescope. This was based on the telescope having 130mm aperture and a focal length of 650mm. The way I understand it is a 6mm would give me x216 and a 4mm x325. The max usable being x307  so the 4mm is a little over.

 

I bought a x2 Barlow lense first then a 6mm and a couple of nights ago used it when viewing Jupiter. I was amazed! I could see three of the moons! I felt that with a little more magnification I would see the colours and or stripes so I bought a 4mm eyepiece. I have just returned from my garden a little disheartened as I didn't see much more than previous nights (that was using a x2 barlow with a 4mm). Before I bought the telescope I researched online and saw videos of Jupiter using the same telescope which had the results I wanted (colour pattern and rings of Saturn). Where have I gone wrong? Is the telescope not good enough for what I expect of it? Are the eyepieces too cheap (all are celstron and each one was approx £30) Or is it user error - I welcome all comments as I need advice as to which direction to go. Other relevant information listed below:

 

My age 28. Location Wigan, England. Light pollution I live in a small village so not completely isolated. I have attached the view of Jupiter - this was taken by holding my phones camera above the eyepiece so the quality was a little better than shown in the photo.

[Charic]

A lot of folk think that by going higher with the magnification, the image gets closer, and more detailed.
Fortunately you do get closer, but the image deteriorates, the higher the magnification you go, unless you back up the magnification with more aperture?

I had a 127mm scope and the difference  now with 200mn on  Jupiter is stunning. Jupiter is still small in my scope, but I have seen three bands recently, but on one occasion, I clearly saw the shadow of a Moon passing in front of Jupiter, such were the allowable seeing conditions and the detail offered from having a larger aperture.

Try the longest focal length you have first, maybe even Barlow it and check the details?  albeit very small, you should see something.
Also note, supplied eyepieces are not the best in quality or performance and or comfort, but a new eyepiece alone won't change what the scope does, the eyepiece just magnifies the 'real image' that the scope has already created. 

Your not doing anything wrong, but the limitations of the scope, its setup and collimation, the seeing conditions, local light pollution,your condition - your eyes? and knowing what to look for and how! The longer you look , the more you will see, but it takes time and practice.

[gnomus]

https://www.astronomics.com/eyepiece-highest-useful-magnification_t.aspx

Most nights you will do well to get 120-130x magnification out of your scope.

 

[John]

Hello and welcome to the forum

I think you are using too much magnification to view Jupiter.

With your 130mm F/5 (focal length 650mm) scope 120x - 150x will give the best views of Jupiter. Adding more magnification does not generally show more detail, if anything, the opposite.

 

[johnfosteruk]

You're doing nothing wrong, keep magnification in the low to mid 100s as the chaps have already said and spend a bit of time, you'll be surprised at the amount of details that little disk will give up so relax, get your breathing slow and steady and wait for the moments of clarity to come through.

Expect to see the two equatorial belts (NEB and SEB) the great red spot when it's transiting (GRS), the moons and their shadows when they're transiting and other details including some of the other belts if your conditions are good plus details in the belts (Festoons, ovals, barges).

It is all down to the atmospheric conditions (seeing etc) but you can help yourself be ensuring you're not viewing over rooftops etc to reduce thermals.

Keep at it and enjoy.

also, I encourage you to read this.

 

[Les Ewan]

The main things to remember is that as a beginner it will take some time acquire the the skill to actually see properly through a telescope,hone your observing skills using a low power as a smaller crisper image is far preferable to a larger fuzzy one. Seeing conditions seldom allow for higher powers anyway in fact I seldom go much above 150X (more often nearer 100X) even with my 200mm Newtonian! Be careful with your focus even tiny adjustment can make all the difference.

What with the very narrow beam of light that exits the eyepiece,dewing and bad seeing conditions I often have trouble even after 40 years of using various telescopes(Im sure many here can vouch for this). This must seem a bit depressing for you but there are good nights too when fleeting breathtaking details can suddenly jump out at you. Try to observe later in the night as seeing can often be better then.

[cletrac1922]

Welcome from Land Down Under

I have gone the opposite way, with my 10" Dob, and use a 17MM wide angle lens

Able to see the rings on Jupiter nicely, and also with a wider field, take in moons further out around Jupiter

Join an local astronomy club, as also get a lot of help from other members, and members only too happy to try different eyepieces in your scope

You have not mentioned which type of scope you purchased, if Reflector or Refractor

With a Reflector telescope collimation is very important, that the motors are aligned

If you have a Reflector, then get a laser collimator, and check mirror alignment

It is very important that you do not unscrew middle screw of the secondary mirror, as can put the entire secondary mirror out of alignment

Do the secondary mirror first, and align the red dot of the laser collimator with the dot in the centre of the primary mirror

Then do to bottom of the scope, slightly loosen the locking nuts, and then adjust the primary mirror until laser image vanishes centre of the disc of the collimator

Use the collimator on lowest power setting as well

 

 

[Galen Gilmore]

I think you have the magnification calculations wrong, they say the max usable magnificatio is two times your scopes aperture in millimeters. So 130mm = 260x. And the magnification of the eyepiece is telescope focal length/eyepiece focal length. So for your scope and a 4mm eyepiece you would do 650/4 = 162.5x. With a Barlow that number is 325x which is way over your maximum usable magnification.

Hope you get everything sorted!

[Earl]

always shoot unde ther maximum by a long way, atmosphere plays a huge part in getting a good image then the price of the eyepeice.

[D4V1D88]

Thanks everyone for the quick replys!

Charic - When you say back up the magnification with more apperture does that mean by using a different telescope with a larger aperture? Whats your 200mm telescope? It sounds like you're getting the results I am after! Could you explain this a bit more 'Try the longest focal length you have first, maybe even Barlow it and check the details?' I am under the impresison focal length is an attribute and doesnt change? Thanks for explaining how magnification works I suppose its like putting a low resolution picture on a large Tv sometimes it would look better on a phone :-) When you say the longer I look the more I'll see does that mean i dont necessarily have to buy more kit just keep trying on different nights maybe in different locations?

Brown Dwarf- Thanks for the link,was an interesting read. So really I want to be using my 10mm EP...This is the one that came with the telescope - do you think I should buy another 10mm EP incase the one that was supplied is cheap? Also is £30 per EP the right amount to spend?

Perfectly Normal Beast - yep that looks like where im going wrong, on the next clear night I will try with lower mag

White Dwarf - So are you saying that like tonight I looked at Jupiter and wasn't happy with the image but if i keep it in the sight and monitor it for say an hour or so it may randomly show more detail!? That would be brilliant if that was the case. I was under the impression that the poor image I saw tonight was how it is based on my equipment. In terms of breathing control is that so I dont disturb the scope...If so I haven't found that to be a problem as my telescope has slow motion controls which create little or no movement and i dont make contact with the EP so it really is steady. Also from my garden east to west goes right over my roof so maybe I need to try viewing from a field - does rooftop thermals really affect the view? I've had a read through that article - very interesting - the pictures of what I should expect to see are exactly what I would be happy with...

Hopefully with some more great advice from you guys I will get there! Thanks Again

David Astronomy Level 0 (but increasing) :-) I've attached some shots I took of the moon, again using a camera phone pointing down the EP that was with a x2 barlow and 6mm - I havent tried it with a 4mm yet

 

 

[johnfosteruk]

35 minutes ago, D4V1D88 said:

White Dwarf - So are you saying that like tonight I looked at Jupiter and wasn't happy with the image but if i keep it in the sight and monitor it for say an hour or so it may randomly show more detail!? Atmospheric 'seeing' causes random disturbance to the image, but it comes and goes so spending time at the eyepiece will allow the rare moments of clarity when the seeing is at its best to show you a good view

 I was under the impression that the poor image I saw tonight was how it is based on my equipment. Better equipment, specifically, good corrected glass and larger aperture will indeed resolve more detail but if the seeing is poor it will degrade your views.

In terms of breathing control is that so I dont disturb the scope...

No, it's so your mind is relaxed and focussed on the eyepiece and so your body is relaxed and steady, you don't want to be 'twitchy'

Also from my garden east to west goes right over my roof so maybe I need to try viewing from a field - does rooftop thermals really affect the view? yes it does. Think of the heat haze off the road on a warm sunny day, the exact same thing is happening except the thing you're looking at on the other side of the haze is 700 million kilometres away so you need everything on your side.

I've had a read through that article - very interesting - the pictures of what I should expect to see are exactly what I would be happy with... Good luck getting those views!

 

[Dave In Vermont]

, D4V1D88 :

Just a quick note, our user-names are what it says over such titles as 'Vacuum' or 'Little Green Man' or such. Those are our 'Ranks' here. My user-name is 'Dave In Vermont' as yours is 'D4V1D88.'

You can just call me 'Dave' for ease - I'm not into titles, as it were.

It's an easy-to-make mistake. Most of us had that confused when we started out!

Starry Skies,

Dave

[Stu]

Great answers by everyone above. I would just say that your scope is quite capable of showing you some very good views so I would give it, and yourself, some time to get used to everything, and develop your observing skills.

Planetary observing is tricky at the moment (certainly from UK latitudes) because the planets are low in the sky and we are looking through a lot of atmosphere to see them which degrades the view.

Things to be mindful of when observing:

Cooling: Make sure the scope has been outside for 30 to 45 mins before expecting good high power views

Collimation: Learn to collimate your scope as this will make a big difference to your views. It is not hard to do once you get your head around it, and you should check each time you observe.

Seeing: The atmosphere changes all the time, some nights are bad, some good, some mediocre and some all three! What you see varies from hour to hour, minute to minute and second to second! Many of us spends hours at the eyepiece observing Jupiter, in part to see the ever changing scene it presents, but also to catch the moments of good and excellent seeing. The more you look, the more you see as your brain builds up a picture of what is there.

Local thermals: Heat given off by roads, houses, concrete etc can really affect your views, especially central heating flumes. Wherever possible try to observe somewhere away from as much of this as you can. Often the early hours of the morning are the best times to observe as the Earth and houses etc have cooled and the atmosphere has stabilised.

Patience: As implied in the seeing comment, take your time, breath slowly at the eyepiece and you will start to see more and more.

A 130mm scope is quite capable of showing shadow transits on Jupiter and the GRS. Keep the mag where the others have said i.e. Around x120 to x150 and you will get a small but details image. Yes, a larger scope will show you more, but I would get some good use out of this one, everything you learn now is relevant for future scopes.

Good luck!

[Mr niall]

I had a 70mm refractor, and at 78x I could see all 4 moons and some stripes - it seems that weather plays a huge part, and you've got to really give it a few mins at the eyepiece, the details seem to drift in and out of focus it's quite cool but very rewarding. The images that you see I think are composites of hundreds and hundreds of frames stacked together to improve contrast. I don't think anything is amiss!

[Stu]

As an indication, this is an iPhone shot at the eyepiece of my 4" scope, albeit a very nice frac. The actual view was much better than this, sharper and with more detail. In terms of colour, what you see will be subtle, but the GRS can be a nice brick red or orange colour.

[ronin]

To see the bands of Jupiter you need as a minimum about 60x, 80x will be better and above just consider yourself lucky. As magnification goes up then the detail tends to head down, the question is where is that "optimum" point.

To get size, detail and colour I am not sure if a 130 will deliver all 3. You throw that the secondary and the spiders that hold it in place will add to the general loss of detail at least a little.

Personally I would not use a barlow. The barlow is not "designed" for your scope, as in your specific scope. It is a general piece of equipment that covers "all" scopes. Same can be said of the eyepiece to an extent. Was the eyepiece designed around a generic f/5 scope, an f/6 scope, an f/8 scope or an f/10 scope. I would assime an f/8 - nice middle of the road f ratio, your scope is f/5. Basically it is not a case of any barlow and any eyepiece.

For Saturn you will need to consider a maxnification at at 120x, in your scope that reads as 650/120 = 5.4mm eyepiece. The closest to that for reasonable money are the BST Starguiders and the Celestron X-Cel LX's at 5mm. Which one will perform best in your scope I have unfortunately no idea. I have the full set of BST's and a few nights back the 8mm BST gave better results then the 5mm BST. The 6mm Altair was not good in reality, thinking on bits of information I can recall I expect the scope being f/5 was too fast for it.  One option I am considering is one of the Vixen SLV's at 6mm, good reports and £80, which in eyepiece terms is fair cost.

People consider the f ratio of the scope as that implies a field curvature to the image, never hear any one considering the corresponding field (object field) curvature that an eyepiece must have and a short focal length eyepiece will have a significant curvature.

For colour you basically need aperture, until the scope collectss enough light the colour receptors in the eye will not come into operation. In a way colour is a property of the eye in conjunction with the light collection of the scope. Again you make it bigger, that means dimmer per unit area and the eye has insufficent light to detect colour.

Ignore all images, they are not produced by an eye, so why anyone looks at an image and to an extent expects to see the same I have no idea. Also people post the good images. Have a look at thsi: http://bigtelescope.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/christmas-and-telescopes-how-to-avoid.html for Orion, Jupiter and Saturn.

Are you a member of a club? That is a good place to borrow for a few minutes an eyepiese to find out how they operate in your scope. Also people will have been down the same path and have ideas that could be productive.

[Knighty2112]

I was looking at Jupiter last night for a while before I needed to retire to bed for work with both my Celestron C8 SCT, and my smaller Opticstar 90mm 'frac. With the larger aperture of the C8 I could push the ,magnification up on the C8 to get a pleasing image at around 150x and easily see 6 bands, and the GRS too in the middle of the disk. With the smaller 'frac I couldn't push the magnification quite as high, but could still see the moons and 4 belts on Jupiter quite clearly, although I couldn't make out GRS due to the smaller magnification. Your 130mm scope (I'm assuming is a reflector) should be able to pick out at least 4 belts, the moons and on a good clear night with good seeing the GRS with care. However, as stated previously the larger the aperture of your scope the better and clearer the image should be. This would then enable you on good nights to up the magnification some more. 

[Stu]

12 minutes ago, ronin said:

Ignore all images

I would correct that to say ignore all processed images produced by stacking subs.

The realistic images you linked to show that it is possible to give a reasonable representation of the visual view in an image.

[Highburymark]

 I quickly realised these weren't good enough lenses and calculated that a 4mm or 6mm eyepiece would be the max usable magnification I could get out of this £250.00 telescope. This was based on the telescope having 130mm aperture and a focal length of 650mm. The way I understand it is a 6mm would give me x216 and a 4mm x325. The max usable being x307  so the 4mm is a little over.

 

Your 6mm would give 108x in a 650mm focal length scope, - only 216x if barlowed

 

 

[Commanderfish]

Don't worry David, I have a whopping 16" (400mm) aperture scope and usually I can't go beyond x184 magnification without the image going soft on Jupiter.  If the seeing conditions (simply put, atmospheric turbulence) are bad then x184 is too much and I have to reduce to x142.  I can use x 142 pretty much any night though, the seeing conditions in the UK are generally good enough for that magnification (unless the target is very low to the horizon).  Occasionally I can take it up to x230 but generally the seeing conditions are too poor and the result is a soft fuzzy view.

I must say though, x184 in a big aperture scope gives wonderful detail - you can make out a row of swirling storms inside one of the equatorial cloud bands .  So whilst the seeing conditions are a limiting factor, larger aperture scopes can still be useful.

[Rick_It]

You do have a big problem of collimation, looking at the picture. This is pretty obvious looking at your moon pictures, if the focus of your camera was correct.

That's the reason why you can't see details at high magnifications.

Your 4mm should be usable with your scope, provided that collimation is fine. It will provide 650/4 = 162x mag.

Smaller scopes are less affect by seeing than bigger ones and up to 100-150x seldomly is seeing the reason why you can't see details.

Finally a newton 130mm f5 is not exactly the right choice for high magnifications: you had chosen the wrong scope.

[catburglar]

I'd agree with most of the above- here's my top tips in the order that I'd address them.

Your scope is good enough- I've seen multiple bands and shadow transits with an 80mm refractor.

You might just need to check collimation- centre a reasonably bright star, high in the sky and defocus SLIGHTLY- if you see symmetrical concentric circles with a dark spot in the middle as you move through focus you should be OK.

Stick with the 6mm and 4mm eyepieces without the barlow- you said they're Celestron eyepieces, so I suspect they're a plossl design which should be plenty good enough, although you'll need to make sure you keep Jupiter close to the centre of the field- sharpness will probably drop off a bit towards the edge.

 

Try to avoid looking over the roof of your house- it really does make a big difference- if you can avoid the heat haze, you should be able to use 162x most nights.

Altitude- wait for Jupiter to rise as high as possible

Focus- Jupiter can be tricky, at try focussing on one of the moons to nail the sharpest focus and then shift your gaze to Jupiter can help

 

Perservere- good luck- I tried for ages to see details on Mars with a 150mm mak...once you get it, it's difficult to explain why it all seemed so hard before

[D4V1D88]

Cletrac - What is the focal length of your 10" Dob? My scope is a reflector however it doesnt have a motor drive I thought it would be more fun actually trying to locate things myself> I assumed (probably wrongly) that because the telescope is new it should be collimated. Do I need to collimate it? Do i have to use a laser collimator or is there another way?

Galen Gilmore - I was under the impression max useful mag was calculated in the following way 'This is the highest visual power a telescope can achieve before the image becomes too dim for useful observing (generally at about 50x to 60x per inch of telescope aperture). However, this power is very often unreachable due to turbulence in our atmosphere that makes the image too blurry and unstable to see any detail' so my 130mm telescope is 13cm dived by 2.54 to change to inches is 5.12 inches. Times this by 60 is 307. please let me know if I have got this wrong. Also does my focal length double from 650 to 1300 is i am using a x2 barlow lense?

Johnfosteruk - Im glad youve made me aware the image can improove minute to minute - this will totally change the way I observe now! Will also concentrate on my breathing and unfortunately I will have to try from somewhere other than my back yard.

Dave In Vermont (formally Little Green Man :-) thansk for that!

Stu - Thanks thats great advice, I will re read all these comments before my next attempt! Great picture! Was that taken by litterally pointing the camera down the EP like I've done with mine?

Ronin - I am unsure if the EP were designed for my scope this is the link https://www.amazon.co.uk/Celestron-6-mm-Omni-Eyepiece/dp/B00008Y0S8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494893038&sr=8-1&keywords=celestron+6mm all I can see is that it is a Celestron 6 mm Omni Eyepiece. Ive had a look at your recomendations and I think I'll try the Celestron X-Cel LX's at 5mm next payday. The article you shared a link to was very useful and I have now ordered a red light instead of using my very bright phone torch. I've looked at clubs but they only meet once a month and in great britain to have clear skys isnt very likely so is it still worth going to a club when no observing can take place?

Knighty2112 - Its good to know these sights can be achieved with my kit and in my area thanks!

Rickit - Yes ive realised I need to collimate so that is going to be my next step. 

Catburglar - Thanks for the input, again the EP are Celestron 6 mm Omni Eyepiece im guessing theyre plossl.

All - This may be abasic question but I never seem to get chance to view mars as it is so close to sunrise - will this change throughout the year or is it always right before sunrise?

Thanks for all the input - my main areas to focus on are to learn how to collimate my telescope. observe from an isolated field and spend a long time outdoors allowing my eyes to adjust. Im also going to use only red light instead of my phones torch. be patient.

David

[Charic]

On 15/05/2017 at 01:09, D4V1D88 said:

Charic - When you say back up the magnification with more apperture does that mean by using a different telescope with a larger aperture? Whats your 200mm telescope? It sounds like you're getting the results I am after! Could you explain this a bit more 'Try the longest focal length you have first, maybe even Barlow it and check the details?' I am under the impresison focal length is an attribute and doesnt change? Thanks for explaining how magnification works I suppose its like putting a low resolution picture on a large Tv sometimes it would look better on a phone :-) When you say the longer I look the more I'll see does that mean i dont necessarily have to buy more kit just keep trying on different nights maybe in different locations?

Yes that was my intention. A larger aperture offers more headroom for detail. I had one of those avoidable 127EQ's from Celestron, the results were not terrific, even after careful collimation and the use of IMHO better eyepieces, the difference  is apparent due to the aperture.

The scope is the Sky-Watcher Skyliner 200- Dobsonian.
The results I achieve are not constant, due to the weather and seeing conditions, but when the image is clear, under perfect conditions, its well worth the wait.
By using the longest focal length, you should gather more detail, albeit on a small scale, the idea was to compare the detail of resolution and any colour between the 25mm and the 10mm or the 25mm when Barlowed.
The more experienced users here have developed a knack of looking for longer, having the right conditions and just waiting. We're looking through a rough sea of atmosphere, its like dropping a 2p coin in the deep end of a swimming pool during the day while folk are swimming, you'll probably see the coin, but no detail? Look again when the conditions are calm, if you could view at 0200 in the morning when no-one is swimming, you'll see the face of the coin, but getting into the pool that early in the morning is a rarity, akin to waiting for the best conditions from my garden site.
 

I very quickly changed my scope from the 127 to a 200m, no regrets, and a further increase in  aperture will bring more rewards, visually.
You won't know the difference until you look through another scope, but your scope is not over just yet, use some of the techniques mentioned, you'll still get some rewards. 

[Stu]

6 hours ago, D4V1D88 said:

Galen Gilmore - I was under the impression max useful mag was calculated in the following way 'This is the highest visual power a telescope can achieve before the image becomes too dim for useful observing (generally at about 50x to 60x per inch of telescope aperture). However, this power is very often unreachable due to turbulence in our atmosphere that makes the image too blurry and unstable to see any detail' so my 130mm telescope is 13cm dived by 2.54 to change to inches is 5.12 inches. Times this by 60 is 307. please let me know if I have got this wrong. Also does my focal length double from 650 to 1300 is i am using a x2 barlow lense?

60x per inch is generally reserved for smaller high end apo refractors, I would say it's definitely wrong for your scope and other larger newts in general.

There is no hard and fast rule, but one way of doing it is to consider exit pupil size. This is the size of the beam of light exiting the eyepiece into your eye and dictates the brightness of image (simply put).

One measure of maximum magnification can be taken at an exit pupil of 1mm. This is found by either dividing the aperture of your scope by the magnification being used, or dividing the focal length of the eyepiece by the focal ratio of your scope.

The first calculation indicates a magnification of x130mm, and the second calculation shows that this is achieved with a 5mm eyepiece.

At 1mm exit pupil, the image should remain useably bright with good contrast.

The lowest I would normally go is 0.5mm which would be x260 with a 2.5mm eyepiece, however I normally only use this in smaller apo refractors, and I also find that floaters can become a problem at this level. Note that I'm talking about exit pupil here, not a specific magnification i.e. On a hypothetical 260mm aperture scope, x260 would give you a useable 1mm exit pupil.

So, I would recommend treat x130 as a good useable high power, and venturing up to say x180 to see how you find it. Above that, the image will degrade and you may find floaters a problem.

My apologies if any of the above is overly complex, just take what you want from it.

 

6 hours ago, D4V1D88 said:

Stu - Thanks thats great advice, I will re read all these comments before my next attempt! Great picture! Was that taken by litterally pointing the camera down the EP like I've done with mine?

Yes, it was! It's the best over managed and I used an app called ProCam 4 to take it which helps to control exposure and focus which is very tricky on Jupiter. It's a bright object but most of the view is black, so cameras tend to over expose unless you over ride it.

6 hours ago, D4V1D88 said:

m also going to use only red light instead of my phones torch. be patient.

Just a note that dark adaptation is not so important on planets. If anything keeping your cones stimulated helps you perceive colour more. Obviously if you are observing faint DSOs then adapting your eyes is very important.