Best scope for planetary and star doubles

[bomberbaz]

I have looked at the 150pl but that's not gonna be any good for an AZ4 and the 100ED, hmm maybe but the aperture is 100 and I really was think a 127-ish aperture, however it is certainly a good buy at the price and worth considering.

Just having a wander around the web, as you do and came accross this at 365astro; http://www.365astronomy.com/Vixen-VMC110L-Telescope-Mini-Porta-GRAB-AND-GO-Kit.html

Aparently there is no corrector plate and instead there is a small corrector lens just in front of the secondary. I am not very experienced with these scopes so not sure what to make of it although at the price, aperture and weight it fits perfectly with what I was thinking of. Well maybe a little under in aperture but not so much as to be a no.

Oh and the cool down time will be very quick indeed.

 

[CraigT82]

Gotta say I've always been intrigued by those vixen cats but the secondary obstruction looks fairly sizeable looking at the pics (not sure how big it actually is though). Might not be too effective at splitting tight doubles 

[John]

I've read quite a few reports of those Vixen VMC110's and most of them seemed to think the scope reasonable but a little underwhelming. An ED100 would be somewhat better I strongly suspect.

 

 

[Stu]

6 minutes ago, John said:

I've read quite a few reports of those Vixen VMC110's and most of them seemed to think the scope reasonable but a little underwhelming. An ED100 would be somewhat better I strongly suspect.

 

 

I agree. I think it's hard to beat a decent refractor on doubles. Far fewer cool down issues and beautiful star shapes.

[nightfisher]

I had a VMC110 and only got it for the grab an go use, but to be honest it never really impressed me, i would still think an ED100 or skymax 127 would be a far better bet i would even take the skymax 102 over the vixen

[Alkaid]

3 hours ago, Alkaid said:

Just a quick point from me, ED120 is actually about 113mm. The objective is 120mm, but there is vignetting due to the baffling cutting into the lightpath. Deal breaker? Not sure, but it is nice to know what one is paying for...

 

Okay, having said this I immediately thought that that comment might stir up a bit of trouble, so apologies....however I would not have said it if there was not something to support it...  The below links are from a 120 ED reviewer and he did mention this apparent vignetting.

Extract from the below pages (which actually discuss 4" APO's).  

"The Equinox 120ED has had some excellent reviews and I liked it a lot. Things seemed a little less rosy when a well-known tester found that it was really a 113mm scope … even so, it’s a good lens for the price."

http://www.scopeviews.co.uk/FourInchBG.htm#_Toc439679856

And:

"There were reports that the Equinox 120ED achieved its excellent performance in small part by a bit of sneaky vignetting. In other words, the baffling stopped down the aperture to perhaps 114mm/F7.9. My (admittedly crude) exit pupil measurements reveal no vignetting on this 100ED."

http://www.scopeviews.co.uk/SW100EDPro.htm

 

Both extracts are from the same author, so not exactly scientific...but it did make me sit up and think.  If you're a 120ED owner, no offence meant...just sayin' what I heard

 

 

 

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

Okay, having said this I immediately thought that that comment might stir up a bit of trouble, so apologies....however I would not have said it if there was not something to support it...  The below links are from a 120 ED reviewer and he did mention this apparent vignetting.

Extract from the below pages (which actually discuss 4" APO's).  

"The Equinox 120ED has had some excellent reviews and I liked it a lot. Things seemed a little less rosy when a well-known tester found that it was really a 113mm scope … even so, it’s a good lens for the price."

http://www.scopeviews.co.uk/FourInchBG.htm#_Toc439679856

And:

"There were reports that the Equinox 120ED achieved its excellent performance in small part by a bit of sneaky vignetting. In other words, the baffling stopped down the aperture to perhaps 114mm/F7.9. My (admittedly crude) exit pupil measurements reveal no vignetting on this 100ED."

 

 

http://www.scopeviews.co.uk/SW100EDPro.htm

 

Both extracts are from the same author, so not exactly scientific...but it did make me sit up and think.  If you're a 120ED owner, no offence meant...just sayin' what I heard

 

 

 

Apologies for my curt answer, it wasn't meant that way, no offense taken. I'm not sure if there is any difference between the Equinox and the Evostar Pro but there was certainly no vignetting in my 120ED, it's a great scope with excellent optics and resolution.

[mikeDnight]

31 minutes ago, Stu said:

Apologies for my curt answer, it wasn't meant that way, no offense taken. I'm not sure if there is any difference between the Equinox and the Evostar Pro but there was certainly no vignetting in my 120ED, it's a great scope with excellent optics and resolution.

 

31 minutes ago, Stu said:

Apologies for my curt answer, it wasn't meant that way, no offense taken. I'm not sure if there is any difference between the Equinox and the Evostar Pro but there was certainly no vignetting in my 120ED, it's a great scope with excellent optics and resolution.

Only yesterday i was reading a thread on CN in which someone brought up the issue of the Equinox 120 and 120 ed pro being sub aperture due to baffling. He was corrected in no uncertain terms, but nicely of course. Apparently tests made since that original claim have proved time and again that the claim was completely false. The ED 120's are not and have never been sub aperture. They are infàct superb refractors by any standard and could only be bested on nights of good seeing by higher end scopes, ie scopes with finer optics.

Ive heard of very few people who were not entirely happy with the laser etched views through a 120 ed. They all seem to have stupid smiles on their faces!

Mike 

 

[SkyGibbon]

I would probably get a 12" dob and mask it down as needed. You can bring that down to a 100mm f/15. I would do the 150mm f/10 setup though. That should work nice and fairly portable and in budget.

[mikeDnight]

3 hours ago, bomberbaz said:

I have looked at the 150pl but that's not gonna be any good for an AZ4 and the 100ED, hmm maybe but the aperture is 100 and I really was think a 127-ish aperture, however it is certainly a good buy at the price and worth considering.

Just having a wander around the web, as you do and came accross this at 365astro; http://www.365astronomy.com/Vixen-VMC110L-Telescope-Mini-Porta-GRAB-AND-GO-Kit.html

Aparently there is no corrector plate and instead there is a small corrector lens just in front of the secondary. I am not very experienced with these scopes so not sure what to make of it although at the price, aperture and weight it fits perfectly with what I was thinking of. Well maybe a little under in aperture but not so much as to be a no.

Oh and the cool down time will be very quick indeed.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the 100mm aperture, it will split doubles beautifully and will show stars of 13th mag and even beyond on a transparent night. 

I was observing with my 100mm frac the other night and it had no trouble in revealing the trapeziums E and F stars and Alnitak tiny companion sat perfectly on the first diffraction ring of its primary. The Gallileans around Jupiter are perfect tiny discs, each a different size and each a different colour. The belt detail on Jupiter is almost always highly complex and Saturn, even though it is still low in the morning sky shows its A,B and C rings along with Cassinis division, and globe detail easily. Mars is still tiny at 8" arc but detail in the 100mm is still visible with patience.

The ed's are good looking scopes, so you're wife might be more forgiving than you think!

Mike

[bomberbaz]

2 hours ago, nightfisher said:

I had a VMC110 and only got it for the grab an go use, but to be honest it never really impressed me, i would still think an ED100 or skymax 127 would be a far better bet i would even take the skymax 102 over the vixen

I did think about a Slymax 127 as well, easier to store, short cool down and might get away with an az3 although need check on that. 

 

I am in no rush anyway but will wait to hear back from the 100ed, might explore that further seeing as everyone is telling me they are so good ?

[bomberbaz]

14 hours ago, John said:

I've read quite a few reports of those Vixen VMC110's and most of them seemed to think the scope reasonable but a little underwhelming. An ED100 would be somewhat better I strongly suspect.

 

 

read a few reports myself now john and suffice to say the Vixen idea is now shelved

[Bodkin]

19 hours ago, CraigT82 said:

Actually just seen that you'd want it in an AZ4... Probably not ideal for a long & heavy mak newt

Another vote for the mak best from me. I have had one of these for over fifteen years and still love it.  It is,however, pretty heavy. One option, if you are up for it is to make a simple wooden dobsonian mounting for it.  I am just doing this at the moment having already done one for my ten inch reflector.  The wood working quality required is not high; my ten inch probably doesn't have a ninety degree angle in it anywhere, but the mount is incredibly stable and very compact for storage.  Just a idea on how to get a great planetary scope within your budget.  They are very expensive new, but a bargain secondhand to my mind.

[Mr Spock]

OO used to do a 150mm f11 Newt that would be impressive.

They do currently have a 150mm f8 on a Dob mount. Upgrade it to ¹/_10^th wave optics and you have a winner

[Moonshane]

oh yes, they did. I love mine.

[F15Rules]

Hi Steve,

Belatedley joining this conversation but you've had some great advice here.

I can speak also with some experience as I have an AR127l and a good 100mm (well, actually, 103mm :-)) apo (Vixen ED103s). I've also had an Intes MK67 and Ylena 150Mak (lomo optics). Finally, I've used the SW 120 F8 achromat as my son in law has one which he stores in my garage while he's away doing his PHD.

My short comments on each:

AR127l - stonking value for money for a full 5" refractor, bearing in mind what a 4" long achromat cost 20 years ago (Vixen SP102m at around £1k with a mount - great scope though!). The AR127 though, for me, excels more on wider DSO views, for example M42 is great, the Moon is great. Jupiter can be good on good nights if you don't mind the purplish halo - a filter or Baader Fringe Killer might help, but personally I don't like them either. For planetary I think they are ok, but not the best.

Intes MK 67 Mak 150mm - superb optics from Russia. Gives the nearest-to-refractor like views I've ever seen in a non-frac. Not that common but they do come up for £400-£700 and are superb all round scopes.

Ylena (Lomo) 150mm Mak - as above with knobs on. Truly a breathtaking scope, costs £1500 now made to order, and I wish I had not sold mine! There was one recently on UKABS (might still be there) by the guy I bought my ED103s from, around £700 I think. 

Vixen ED103s - along with the 5" D&G F15 refractor I sold a few months ago, and the above Ylena, one of my top 3 scopes I've ever owned. Planetary views for a 4" on the Vixen are amazing in the few short sessions I've been able to have yet. Takes x300 with ease on a good night.

SW120-Evostar F8 achromat -. It's not a bad first serious scope. My son in laws' has a SW crayford on it which improves it significantly. However, it has a good deal more CA than the AR127l which is F9.5 versus F8. I think it's out of it's depth in the above company.

If you want to keep costs down, the AR127l will make you smile much more than it makes you frown. If you are serious about pin sharp planetary views though, I'd go for the 100mm ED, a Russian 150 mak, (or a good OMC140 is very nice, but much narrower fov), or, if funds will stretch, an ED120 based on others' views (I owned an Equinox for a short time, but did not like it and now think it may have been deficient in some way - virtually every other review of it I have seen praises it to the rooftops, and these are the views of people on here I really respect as knowing their stuff.

Decisions, decisions...good luck with your scope hunt Steve!

Dave

[nightfisher]

44 minutes ago, F15Rules said:

Hi Steve,

Belatedley joining this conversation but you've had some great advice here.

I can speak also with some experience as I have an AR127l and a good 100mm (well, actually, 103mm :-)) apo (Vixen ED103s). I've also had an Intes MK67 and Ylena 150Mak (lomo optics). Finally, I've used the SW 120 F8 achromat as my son in law has one which he stores in my garage while he's away doing his PHD.

My short comments on each:

AR127l - stonking value for money for a full 5" refractor, bearing in mind what a 4" long achromat cost 20 years ago (Vixen SP102m at around £1k with a mount - great scope though!). The AR127 though, for me, excels more on wider DSO views, for example M42 is great, the Moon is great. Jupiter can be good on good nights if you don't mind the purplish halo - a filter or Baader Fringe Killer might help, but personally I don't like them either. For planetary I think they are ok, but not the best.

Intes MK 67 Mak 150mm - superb optics from Russia. Gives the nearest-to-refractor like views I've ever seen in a non-frac. Not that common but they do come up for £400-£700 and are superb all round scopes.

Ylena (Lomo) 150mm Mak - as above with knobs on. Truly a breathtaking scope, costs £1500 now made to order, and I wish I had not sold mine! There was one recently on UKABS (might still be there) by the guy I bought my ED103s from, around £700 I think. 

Vixen ED103s - along with the 5" D&G F15 refractor I sold a few months ago, and the above Ylena, one of my top 3 scopes I've ever owned. Planetary views for a 4" on the Vixen are amazing in the few short sessions I've been able to have yet. Takes x300 with ease on a good night.

SW120-Evostar F8 achromat -. It's not a bad first serious scope. My son in laws' has a SW crayford on it which improves it significantly. However, it has a good deal more CA than the AR127l which is F9.5 versus F8. I think it's out of it's depth in the above company.

If you want to keep costs down, the AR127l will make you smile much more than it makes you frown. If you are serious about pin sharp planetary views though, I'd go for the 100mm ED, a Russian 150 mak, (or a good OMC140 is very nice, but much narrower fov), or, if funds will stretch, an ED120 based on others' views (I owned an Equinox for a short time, but did not like it and now think it may have been deficient in some way - virtually every other review of it I have seen praises it to the rooftops, and these are the views of people on here I really respect as knowing their stuff.

Decisions, decisions...good luck with your scope hunt Steve!

Dave

You missed out the TAL100rs...............shame on you Dave

[bomberbaz]

1 hour ago, F15Rules said:

Hi Steve,

Belatedley joining this conversation but you've had some great advice here.

I can speak also with some experience as I have an AR127l and a good 100mm (well, actually, 103mm :-)) apo (Vixen ED103s). I've also had an Intes MK67 and Ylena 150Mak (lomo optics). Finally, I've used the SW 120 F8 achromat as my son in law has one which he stores in my garage while he's away doing his PHD.

My short comments on each:

AR127l - stonking value for money for a full 5" refractor, bearing in mind what a 4" long achromat cost 20 years ago (Vixen SP102m at around £1k with a mount - great scope though!). The AR127 though, for me, excels more on wider DSO views, for example M42 is great, the Moon is great. Jupiter can be good on good nights if you don't mind the purplish halo - a filter or Baader Fringe Killer might help, but personally I don't like them either. For planetary I think they are ok, but not the best.

Intes MK 67 Mak 150mm - superb optics from Russia. Gives the nearest-to-refractor like views I've ever seen in a non-frac. Not that common but they do come up for £400-£700 and are superb all round scopes.

Ylena (Lomo) 150mm Mak - as above with knobs on. Truly a breathtaking scope, costs £1500 now made to order, and I wish I had not sold mine! There was one recently on UKABS (might still be there) by the guy I bought my ED103s from, around £700 I think. 

Vixen ED103s - along with the 5" D&G F15 refractor I sold a few months ago, and the above Ylena, one of my top 3 scopes I've ever owned. Planetary views for a 4" on the Vixen are amazing in the few short sessions I've been able to have yet. Takes x300 with ease on a good night.

SW120-Evostar F8 achromat -. It's not a bad first serious scope. My son in laws' has a SW crayford on it which improves it significantly. However, it has a good deal more CA than the AR127l which is F9.5 versus F8. I think it's out of it's depth in the above company.

If you want to keep costs down, the AR127l will make you smile much more than it makes you frown. If you are serious about pin sharp planetary views though, I'd go for the 100mm ED, a Russian 150 mak, (or a good OMC140 is very nice, but much narrower fov), or, if funds will stretch, an ED120 based on others' views (I owned an Equinox for a short time, but did not like it and now think it may have been deficient in some way - virtually every other review of it I have seen praises it to the rooftops, and these are the views of people on here I really respect as knowing their stuff.

Decisions, decisions...good luck with your scope hunt Steve!

Dave

Cheers for all that Dave and the rest of you. I think, that having looked at ota dimensions and weights i will consider the following. The 100ED is the strongest contender evn though focal length a little low at 900 but only at the rigjt price 2nd hand. 

The bresser 102/1000 is a good option also but the 127 is falling outside what i initially thought in terms of wiegth and size, 102 is only just tbh. 

Skymax 127 as its very easy set up, right aize and weight and focal length is ok although on the limit. I have owned maks and think 127 is the size where i would draw the line.

anyway, no rush and still open to other ideas but dobs are not it the frame, fracs or maks really. 

[dweller25]

Do you still have the 10" Orion XT ? - if so you could stop it down to a 100mm F/12 APO

[F15Rules]

Sorry Jules, you're right of course, the Tal is a worthy contender, certainly for doubles- if you can find one now:-).

Another fabulous scope for splitting doubles is the Towa Topic 80mm F15. The quality of these old lenses is amazing and at F15 (I love that number!), they throw up perfect large airy disks- Castor in Gemini looks just like a pair of tiny headlights through mine- I had mine on the drive this afternoon trying a CJZ with my new APM 2.7x Barlow on a nearby TV aerial.. This gave about x300, really crisp sharp image (that's 100x per inch of aperture!), and hardly any CA either.

They can be had complete with mount on ebay and Gumtree etc for £40-£100, and when mounted firmly on a decent mount can take ridiculous magnification. 

Here's a reminder of my Moonrakered version, sitting next to the AR127l :-)

Dave

[Scooot]

2 hours ago, dweller25 said:

Do you still have the 10" Orion XT ? - if so you could stop it down to a 100mm F/12 APO

I've just made a mask with a 150mm aperture for my 16" which has an OO 1/10 mirror. Using the paracorr I think this makes it about f13.5 and a 2070 focal length. I've only tried it with a fairly full moon but doubles look very good and the background sky was very dark considering the moonlight  I haven't looked through a 6" APO so don't know how it would compare but if using it mainly for visual stopping down a dob seems like a good cheap alternative.

[Chris]

Stopping down a Dob sounds like a good plan.

So does something like this, Steve:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ASTRONOMICAL-TELESCOPE-LARGE-WOODEN-TRIPOD-BALANCE-WEIGHTS-/182032629341?hash=item2a61fd7e5d:g:3ZUAAOSwPc9WyzYy

 

[bomberbaz]

Never even thought about masking the dob down to change the FR. Worth a go and might just do that as an interim until I can get a go with a mak.

The tal looks like a great buy and I might go for it but only to renovate and sell on. Fancy a bash at a bit of tinkering as at least I can get involved in something astro related whilst the clouds are about.

 

[John]

I've masked my 12" OO dob down to around 102mm and the resulting images are pretty much identical to those that my Vixen ED102SS puts up. The latter scope is a lot lighter and more portable than the 12" dob though so I tend to use it when I want 4" refractor type views.

 

 

[bomberbaz]

7 minutes ago, John said:

I've masked my 12" OO dob down to around 102mm and the resulting images are pretty much identical to those that my Vixen ED102SS puts up. The latter scope is a lot lighter and more portable than the 12" dob though so I tend to use it when I want 4" refractor type views.

 

 

For what it is though and as an interim I will try it. Not sure what aperture I need to take 250 from f4.7 into an f10 - f12. 90mm ?

Whats the calculation again anyone