Test and Comparison: Starfield 102mm F7 ED Doublet v Takahashi FC-100 DF f7.4 Doublet (Fluorite)

[Stu]

I am responsible for some of those comments so I apologise for my contributions.

I think that when a group of owners of a particular make of scope are consistently targeted as they have been, then it is perhaps unsurprising that certain reactions occur.

Additionally, the concept of expectation bias seems only to apply to this group, for some reason. Why?

Without exception I’ve seen Tak owners openly enjoying, revelling even in their scopes, whilst also being totally encouraging that many cheaper scopes of different brands deliver excellent performance which any of us would be happy with. I’ve not seen any ‘you must buy a Tak’ comments.

Contrary to certain opinions, I chose to buy my scope for perfectly logical and well thought out reasons, and have never had cause to question those. I have had far more value per observing session from my FC-100DC than any other scope I’ve owned (over 60 now). It combines excellent performance in a lightweight, easily transportable scope that will sit on a small travel mount, so it gets used a lot in a wide range of roles. Why would I spend a large part of my observing life with a scope that I’m only kidding myself is any good? I wouldn’t.

All I ask is that the sniping comments against Tak owners stop, and we all just get on with enjoying our scopes and our shared enjoyment of the hobby. Thank you.

[Franklin]

3 hours ago, Littleguy80 said:

I found the review helpful.

Same here, I enjoy reading up on different scopes performances. I already knew that Takahashi are up there with the best because I've owned them and looked through them but the comparison shows how much better the more budget brands have become, which is great.

[Mr Spock]

7 minutes ago, Franklin said:

Same here, I enjoy reading up on different scopes performances. I already knew that Takahashi are up there with the best because I've owned them and looked through them but the comparison shows how much better the more budget brands have become, which is great.

I wish we could see more side by side reviews. It makes interesting reading and also helps members who are maybe undecided about what equipment they would like. 

There's no doubt that amongst scopes which are actually available Takahashi are the best (I'd be six foot under waiting for an AP ). That's why I spent an arm and a leg buying one - and accessories, including a Tak prism and a TOE. But you only have to read what other members think about the Starfield to see just how good it is. Surely at its current price its a bargain 👍

 

[Moonlit Knight]

This forum really isn’t the place it was a decade ago. It’s gotten to the point where it’s becoming the Takahashi owner’s lounge where the price of membership is a £3000 plus telescope. I don’t believe I have ever seen anything even near Tak bashing, how could there be? What I have seen is a weariness of every thread turning into an opportunity to talk about Taks to the point where other people are excluded. Why would anyone bother posting anything about anything other than this particular brand of telescope when the thread is hijacked within a couple of hours. I am sure that I will receive a response or two for posting this but it is getting out of hand now. I don’t have the answer as to how this can or even should be managed but there is starting to be damaged caused, it’s alienating to be honest and turning people off. 

Sorry folks, I like it here, I have learned a lot and really really don’t want to offend or upset anyone but it is becoming a rather exclusive club.

 It is such a shame 

[Alan White]

I don't own a Tak, but do own Vixen scopes and have owned a number of others.

The thread started as a comparison to a well respected scope and a Takahashi, owned by the same person at the same time,
which is a very nice thing to do and most helpful I feel.



 

[Franklin]

10 minutes ago, Moonlit Knight said:

It’s gotten to the point where it’s becoming the Takahashi owner’s lounge where the price of membership is a £3000 plus telescope.

I can see your point, but I wouldn't go that far. There are numerous threads which focus on Takahashi, such as "Show us your Takahashi scope" and they all make interesting reading so for one, I actually really enjoy seeing picture of, and hearing about all of these amazing scopes. So I think it's ok to keep banging on about how fantastic your Taks are, besides, you'll never change my mind, Vixen all the way baby😁!

[jetstream]

I dont know why anyone who is possibly offended by Takahashi ownership would read and participate in a thread about the comparison of one?

 

[Peter Drew]

It takes more than this to offend me, however, I'm always bemused that whenever somebody buys one of these telescopes it invokes pages of box opening, pics taken of the scope from all angles and requests for future performance reviews.  Whereas another completely different telescope, a reflector in particular, that may be far better suited to the owner's interest might garner a couple of "likes".  I would have thought by now that it is such common knowledge that a Takahashi is about as good as it gets and they all look pretty much the same, leaving little else original to say about them.   🙂

[Mr Spock]

Vixens are excellent too. But they do seem to be unobtanium these days.

[Deadlake]

1 hour ago, Mr Spock said:

Vixens are excellent too. But they do seem to be unobtanium these days.

4-9 Working days, 

https://www.bresseruk.com/Astronomy/Telescopes/Vixen-SD103S-apochromatic-Refractor.html

Actually quite shocked how much SD80 as gone up, when I bought my SD103S the SD80 was around £900, not just under £1300.

Well done government, this is not just global inflation.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Deadlake

[Stu]

2 hours ago, Moonlit Knight said:

This forum really isn’t the place it was a decade ago. It’s gotten to the point where it’s becoming the Takahashi owner’s lounge where the price of membership is a £3000 plus telescope. I don’t believe I have ever seen anything even near Tak bashing, how could there be? What I have seen is a weariness of every thread turning into an opportunity to talk about Taks to the point where other people are excluded. Why would anyone bother posting anything about anything other than this particular brand of telescope when the thread is hijacked within a couple of hours. I am sure that I will receive a response or two for posting this but it is getting out of hand now. I don’t have the answer as to how this can or even should be managed but there is starting to be damaged caused, it’s alienating to be honest and turning people off. 

Sorry folks, I like it here, I have learned a lot and really really don’t want to offend or upset anyone but it is becoming a rather exclusive club.

 It is such a shame 

I’m sorry that’s how you feel, and do understand where some of that frustration comes from. Not sure what can be done other than trying to keep reminding ourselves of thread topics and keeping on track. Thread creep often happens after a while anyway and most don’t mind, particularly if the original subject has already been covered.

Given that a Tak was the subject of this thread though, it’s not surprising that they are being discussed, and believe me there is plenty of Tak owner bashing that goes on, I experience it regularly which is why I raised the subject.

As for ‘Show us your’ threads, anyone can start those, and I believe there is one for Vixen and perhaps others. If someone wants to start a ‘Show us your Starfield’ then no one would have a problem with that. How much attention they get is totally down to members/owners and whether they post up on the threads or not.

[Mr Spock]

I meant a fluorite Vixen 

[Alan White]

1 minute ago, Mr Spock said:

I meant a fluorite Vixen 

Who needs one, when you can have the super ED and now SD scopes.

[John]

4 minutes ago, Alan White said:

Who needs one, when you can have the super ED and now SD scopes.

And super achromats apparently - much debate elsewhere on what constitutes one of those, as you can imagine !

 

[Franklin]

14 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

I meant a fluorite Vixen

Only the little FL55SS.

[F15Rules]

3 minutes ago, Stu said:

I believe there is one for Vixen and perhaps others. If someone wants to start a ‘Show us your Starfield’ then no one would have a problem with that. How much attention they get is totally down to members/owners and whether they post up on the threads or not.

Yes, I started a "Show us your Vixen" thread a good while back, and invited contributions for other Vixen equipment such as mounts etc: there were some fascinating posts and photos posted, from a wide variety of SGLers, including many showing no Vixen scope at all..

I was chuffed to see how much Vixen stuff there is in circulation: if Takahashi pioneered Fluorite apos, then Vixen certainly brought quality engineered scope mounts within reach of the masses with their wonderful SP/GP/GPDX mounts, and later their Porta lightweight Altaz mounts as well as more specialised imaging mounts.

Oh, and although they no longer offer Fluorite lenses scopes, their superb ED/SD range perform visually so close to Tak Fluorites that I can't see any difference.

I for one would welcome lots more "Show us" threads for both modern and classic scopes regardless of the price or brand. The same goes for reflectors..I personally don't like them, so probably wouldn't read them, but there are plenty on here who do and would!

If you like the subject, read it and participate in it...if you don't, then don't! 😊

Dave

[Stu]

@Moonlit Knight out of interest, I went looking for threads which may have been overtaken by Tak owners. I happened upon this one, which just happened to have been yours.

In it, you received good advice (including from me!) not to buy a Televue Genesis and stick with your Starfield as it is the better scope. No one mentioned Taks until someone happened along with a criticism of Tak owners talking about razor sharp views etc. which was out of the blue and unrelated really. Unfortunately it went downhill from there as people responded.

I never criticise other people’s choice of scope or the way they describe the views, or suggest that they rave about their scope just because they have invested an amount of money on it. People tend to respond when criticisms like this are raised, such as confirmation bias or whatever; if someone tells me I only think my scope is any good because I spend alot of dosh on it then yes, I will respond quite vigorously to that! I spent a lot on a Tak Sky 90 and thought it was awful, and lost plenty selling it on, so am not blindly following a brand.

So, if we steer clear of this sort of commenting then perhaps threads will stay on track. Let’s see.

[F15Rules]

11 minutes ago, John said:

And super achromats apparently - much debate elsewhere on what constitutes one of those, as you can imagine !

 

Here's a "Super Achromat", John..

..at 80mm F15 there is precious little CA on the night sky.. great sharpness, depth of focus (it has a dual speed focuser but doesn't need it), and excellent contrast😎

A Vixen 1980s classic!

Dave

[Highburymark]

I think part of the perceived problem is that Takahashi owners on SGL are not just among the most passionate advocates of their scopes, but they also post more. A lot more. Considering the number of - say - Celestron SCT or Skywatcher ED owners there must be on this site, they must dwarf the Takahashi Ultras!

[Ags]

To be fair, I think many Taks seem to be bought as retirement gifts, special birthday presents or as a “final scope”. It’s not surprising people post about them. 

[F15Rules]

20 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

I think part of the perceived problem is that Takahashi owners on SGL are not just among the most passionate advocates of their scopes, but they also post more. A lot more. Considering the number of - say - Celestron SCT or Skywatcher ED owners there must be on this site, they must dwarf the Takahashi Ultras!

Good point, Mark..but it then begs the question..where are the SCT and ED owners' threads?

Probably almost 10 years ago I owned a several ED 100s - by both Celestron and Skywatcher. They were all excellent optically (only let down a bit by budget build and focusers etc) and I along with others enthused about them. 

I aspired to a premium refractor for the future (by premium I meant at the time Tec/Lzos/Tak/Vixen ED etc), but that didn't stop me posting about what I could afford then.. and I was never made to feel in any way inferior or lacking because of any scope I posted about.

So I say, if you have a scope you love, share it on SGL, tell others why you feel that way, and share photos..I predict that you will get lots of encouragement, advice if asked for, and be more, not less, motivated as a result.😉

Dave

Edited April 3, 2023 by F15Rules
Typo

[Franklin]

6 minutes ago, Ags said:

To be fair, I think many Taks seem to be bought as retirement gifts, special birthday presents or as a “final scope”. It’s not surprising people post about them. 

That's a very good point. I think people like to talk about and show off their high end scopes, not to rub people up, but because they are proud of owning such a fine telescope. In comparison to one of the Japanese 60mm refractors that a lot of us started out with back in the day, owning a high class optic was just a dream and decades later when that dream has been realised, then why not shout about it. 

[jetstream]

It just might be that Tak owners are very frequent observers and really "into" astronomy. I believe that many if not most have followed a progression of telescope purchases leading to the Tak because of the optics. A Tak is an off the rack telescope, with an old design focuser etc but with vg optics.

How many would buy them if the optics were mediocre? Not me thats for sure.

[Mr Spock]

38 minutes ago, Franklin said:

I think people like to talk about and show off their high end scopes, not to rub people up, but because they are proud of owning such a fine telescope.

That is perfectly true, and acceptable. However, when several members complained about the same behaviour disrupting threads, I had a look into it. One member mentioned Taks in 28% of his posts. That isn't taking pride in your scope, it's obsessive and damaging to the site. Unfortunately tackling this abnormal behaviour just put a target on my back.

I really wish I hadn't started this thread. And really wish I could delete it. Like so many it had good intentions but turned into some kind of chaotic bash fest. I have had enough of SGL right now and will be taking a break. I have more important things to do, like observing...

[JeremyS]

1 hour ago, Highburymark said:

I think part of the perceived problem is that Takahashi owners on SGL are not just among the most passionate advocates of their scopes, but they also post more. A lot more. Considering the number of - say - Celestron SCT or Skywatcher ED owners there must be on this site, they must dwarf the Takahashi Ultras!

Oi! I own two fine Celestrons. 🤣

My C11 is used most nights and is a fine scope. Data from this scope has been used for many a research paper.

I am also much enamoured of my C9.25. A very much underestimated scope.