Oops, I did it again... accidentally hit buy on another classic refractor - Hilkin 60mm

[SuburbanMak]

In the immortal words of Britney Spears... oops I did it again. I think I may have a problem...

Couldn't resist this lovely old thing though and did, I think, get a proper bargain if all's well.

This one has Eiko (Circle upside down "Y" Hilkin, Carton etc) optics,  60mm, 800 Fl - so f 13.3    so am hoping for something special for retro double-star & lunar work, will update here on condistion when it arrives. 

As an aside, although my expectations are not high, I can't wait to try the "Super Ramsden" eyepiece - sounds like something out of  Wallace & Gromit 

 

[JeremyS]

Super 👍🏻

[Roy Challen]

Ooh, saw that one on eBay, glad it's gone to someone who'll appreciate it. Let's have some pics when it arrives, especially the lens. Should be very nice indeed.

[happy-kat]

Looks rather nice

[Chris]

Nice buy! Did you get a tripod with it? I can't see from the photo's?

 Also consider getting a 0.96 to 1.25" diagonal or adaptor so you can use modern 1.25" eyepieces (if not included) 

The SR eyepiece stands for Symmetrical Ramsden, and they were fine for their time, but eyepieces tech as moved on in leaps and bounds since, so the SR might leave you wanting more cheese Gromit 😀 

[RobertI]

Nice purchase. Look forward to some reports.

[SuburbanMak]

3 hours ago, Roy Challen said:

Ooh, saw that one on eBay, glad it's gone to someone who'll appreciate it. Let's have some pics when it arrives, especially the lens. Should be very nice indeed.

Thank you - there’s just something about these old refractors isn’t there? 
I will post on what kind of state it’s in when it arrives & hopefully update on first light on here. 

[SuburbanMak]

58 minutes ago, Chris said:

Nice buy! Did you get a tripod with it? I can't see from the photo's?

 Also consider getting a 0.96 to 1.25" diagonal or adaptor so you can use modern 1.25" eyepieces (if not included) 

The SR eyepiece stands for Symmetrical Ramsden, and they were fine for their time, but eyepieces tech as moved on in leaps and bounds since, so the SR might leave you wanting more cheese Gromit 😀 

Thanks - I am not expecting a tripod with this one and looks like the part of the mount that attaches it may be missing. That may be a longer restoration game, although there may be a way to attach to the wooden Prinz 330 tripod I already have. 
 

In the meantime I have some guidescope rings that will fit to sit it on my AZ Gti and Manfrotto 55 to get going. 
 

I have a super cheap .965 - 1.25 converter and have found with my print that the Plossls that came with my skywatcher and a Baader 6mm Classic Ortho are miles better than the dusty old .965s that came with - be fun to test though.

Edited May 6, 2021 by SuburbanMak

[Chris]

16 minutes ago, SuburbanMak said:

Thanks - I am not expecting a tripod with this one and looks like the part of the mount that attaches it may be missing. That may be a longer restoration game, although there may be a way to attach to the wooden Prinz 330 tripod I already have. 
 

In the meantime I have some guidescope rings that will fit to sit it on my AZ Gti and Manfrotto 55 to get going. 
 

I have a super cheap .965 - 1.25 converter and have found with my print that the Plossls that came with my skywatcher and a Baader 6mm Classic Ortho are miles better than the dusty old .965s that came with - be fun to test though.

Sounds like a plan!

If I may? What's your opinion of the AZ-GTI? I'm looking at putting together a portable rig that can at least track, and I'm torn between the AZ gti and the iOptron Skyguider Pro.  

[F15Rules]

Nice scope, with quality optics 👍.

At F13.3 CA should be negligible and contrast and sharpness should be excellent. I'd expect it to be noticeably a step up from your Prinz 330, nice though that is.

I'd strongly advise you to buy this adapter:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vixen-36-4-31-7AD-3720-03-astronomical-telescope-ring-eyepiece-adapter-JAPAN-/254366925246?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286

The scope deserves modern eyepieces, and the adapter will allow you to use a modern 1.25" diagonal and eyepieces.

The grey coloured component at the focuser end (into which the scopes' original 0.965" diagonal fits) should unscrew from the chromed focuser tube to reveal a 36.4mm Vixen female thread: the adapter mentioned above has a male 36.4mm thread which will screw into this female thread, to convert the scope to a 1.25" capability.

If you like this scope, keep your eyes peeled for the 80mm version, it's a cracker and full 3"+ aperture..looks a lot like the Swift 831?

This is an interesting read about a similar Eikow 60mm F15 version..

"Eikow ST3500 60mm F15 - Pics plus short review - Classic Telescopes - Cloudy Nights"

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/501896-eikow-st3500-60mm-f15-pics-plus-short-review/

Enjoy😉

Dave

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by F15Rules
Additional text info and link

[SuburbanMak]

14 hours ago, Chris said:

Sounds like a plan!

If I may? What's your opinion of the AZ-GTI? I'm looking at putting together a portable rig that can at least track, and I'm torn between the AZ gti and the iOptron Skyguider Pro.  

Short version: its great. Long version below! 

I have had the AZ GTi since Christmas and am finding it to be a really great package. I don't have anything to compare it with but am thoroughly happy - its rugged enough to stand up to the knocks of grab & go observing, compact, tracks well and happily carries my 127 Mak, Telrad, 9x50 finder and a chunky Baader Zoom.  I've only had some slight complaint from it when I added a Nikon D90 to that load and even then with balance point at the extreme of the Vixen bar and avoiding the highest slew speeds it was carrying OK.   With a lighter scope (ST80) its absolutely superb. I've had it on both the supplied aluminium tripod and when I wanted to get right at the Zenith without a neck injury, a Manfrotto 55, both totally fine. 

I have found myself using the GoTo less than the Point & Track feature which is excellent & easy to access in the app - works pretty well (10 minutes or so on mid power) out of the box and very well if you align  the mount first (20 minutes plus without a nudge at higher power). If you GoTo an object it starts tracking automatically once the move is complete.  I have tended to align at the start of a session as a routine then you've both maximum tracking accuracy and GoTo capability if you need, takes me 2 minutes now.  You can toggle between Sidereal, Lunar or Solar tracking based on what you need to look at. 

When I first started with it I was having some problems getting accurate alignment, mainly because I was attempting to pick stars in the narrow wedge of sky visible from the garden, which makes sense when you think about the model of the sky its trying to build. After some sagely advice from @ScouseSpaceCadet I headed off to the park where the mount could see the whole sky and align on optimal stars (within between 90 & 130 degrees of  Az and 30 and 60 of Az if memory serves). His advice was to use North Level alignment, start point can be approximate and then you pick 2 bright stars from a long list - the last few weeks its always Vega & Arcuturus - so I've stuck with that. SynScan App is no frills, menu based and works well under red filter.  I have synched it to Stellarium and Sky Safari so can in theory drive the telescope from there but in reality the text based app is much easier to use in the field on a tiny phone screen. 

Each time you slew to an object via GoTo you are asked to centre & confirm (for maximum accuracy you make the last moves up & right apparently to reduce backlash in the mount - the app compels you to do this before accepting as centred, but if you can't be bothered and don't need that precise tolerance then you can tap the up & R buttons and accept without moving the mount in those directions).  It was also suggested that for maximum  accuracy to consider aligning on 2 stars in the same hemisphere and doing all your observing in that half of the sky and then repeating the process for the other. 

This radically improved accuracy making the GoTo definitely usable with the Mak (1 degree max TFOV) and an absolute dream with the wider field of the ST80.    

I would say one in five sessions I have one slew where it loses the plot and does something odd - at that point I've tended to just realign and all is well again, takes 2 minutes.  Beside that the only vary rare issue I've had has been dropping the wireless network 2 or 3 times in 5 months - as likely to be my phone as the mount and again, hitting reconnect worked straight away.  I haven't attempted to use this for photography or in EQ mode which is a firmware & wedge upgrade that' s available & apparently folk can get good results, nice to know I've got something to grow into with this bit of kit one day.  I've tended to use mine with the clutches locked and move around using the motors, but in theory if you disengage the clutches and move around manually, there is a dual encoder system that means the alignment still knows where it is. Haven't really tested this in part because the one area of build where I have a concern is the Az clutch which feels a wee bit under engineered compared to the rest of it - like a thread might strip if you loosened and tightened it extensively, haven't heard of this happening, just feels a bit thin to me.   Lots of buyers put it on an after market puck like this one to make it a nice smooth manual Alt Az push mount https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284231160663?hash=item422d7f5357:g:YqIAAOSwF5NgW0PZ

I am about to take delivery of the aftermarket ADM clamp for this, which apparently improves stability - not because I've had worries about the security of the stock clamp as much as this one will allow me to mount both Vixen & Losmandy type bars, the rings I've found for the 60mm scopes are 30mm fittings.   https://www.firstlightoptics.com/adm-replacement-saddles/adm-dual-dovetail-adaptor-for-az-gti.html 

I love using the old wooden tripod but also really looking forward to getting those old 60mm on this mount!  

Didn't realise I had this much to say about it - topline is I wouldn't hesitate to buy again!

 

  

Edited May 7, 2021 by SuburbanMak

[SuburbanMak]

15 hours ago, F15Rules said:

Nice scope, with quality optics 👍.

At F13.3 CA should be negligible and contrast and sharpness should be excellent. I'd expect it to be noticeably a step up from your Prinz 330, nice though that is.

I'd strongly advise you to buy this adapter:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vixen-36-4-31-7AD-3720-03-astronomical-telescope-ring-eyepiece-adapter-JAPAN-/254366925246?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286

The scope deserves modern eyepieces, and the adapter will allow you to use a modern 1.25" diagonal and eyepieces.

The grey coloured component at the focuser end (into which the scopes' original 0.965" diagonal fits) should unscrew from the chromed focuser tube to reveal a 36.4mm Vixen female thread: the adapter mentioned above has a male 36.4mm thread which will screw into this female thread, to convert the scope to a 1.25" capability.

If you like this scope, keep your eyes peeled for the 80mm version, it's a cracker and full 3"+ aperture..looks a lot like the Swift 831?

This is an interesting read about a similar Eikow 60mm F15 version..

"Eikow ST3500 60mm F15 - Pics plus short review - Classic Telescopes - Cloudy Nights"

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/501896-eikow-st3500-60mm-f15-pics-plus-short-review/

Enjoy😉

Dave

 

 

Thank's Dave  - this is great stuff and I am even more excited to receive the Hilkin now, fingers crossed all is well! 

I am currently using this to plug in 1.25 EPs to the Prinz 60mm, if I bought the Vixen thread adapter you recommend, would that give me the same field stop as a 1.25 as opposed to this, which means I can use 1.25 EPs but with the .965 field stop? 

On the 3-inch, I have warned the household that there is one more old telescope out there as I do hanker for an f15,  3 inch -  I shall bide my time though and wait for the right one. A couple of weeks ago there were several Circle K ones on eBay at the same time so I figured they were quite common but there hasn't been one since, maybe I'll hang on and save up for something more exotic... (although there is that Scopetech...) 

 

[Chris]

9 hours ago, SuburbanMak said:

Short version: its great. Long version below! 

I have had the AZ GTi since Christmas and am finding it to be a really great package. I don't have anything to compare it with but am thoroughly happy - its rugged enough to stand up to the knocks of grab & go observing, compact, tracks well and happily carries my 127 Mak, Telrad, 9x50 finder and a chunky Baader Zoom.  I've only had some slight complaint from it when I added a Nikon D90 to that load and even then with balance point at the extreme of the Vixen bar and avoiding the highest slew speeds it was carrying OK.   With a lighter scope (ST80) its absolutely superb. I've had it on both the supplied aluminium tripod and when I wanted to get right at the Zenith without a neck injury, a Manfrotto 55, both totally fine. 

I have found myself using the GoTo less than the Point & Track feature which is excellent & easy to access in the app - works pretty well (10 minutes or so on mid power) out of the box and very well if you align  the mount first (20 minutes plus without a nudge at higher power). If you GoTo an object it starts tracking automatically once the move is complete.  I have tended to align at the start of a session as a routine then you've both maximum tracking accuracy and GoTo capability if you need, takes me 2 minutes now.  You can toggle between Sidereal, Lunar or Solar tracking based on what you need to look at. 

When I first started with it I was having some problems getting accurate alignment, mainly because I was attempting to pick stars in the narrow wedge of sky visible from the garden, which makes sense when you think about the model of the sky its trying to build. After some sagely advice from @ScouseSpaceCadet I headed off to the park where the mount could see the whole sky and align on optimal stars (within between 90 & 130 degrees of  Az and 30 and 60 of Az if memory serves). His advice was to use North Level alignment, start point can be approximate and then you pick 2 bright stars from a long list - the last few weeks its always Vega & Arcuturus - so I've stuck with that. SynScan App is no frills, menu based and works well under red filter.  I have synched it to Stellarium and Sky Safari so can in theory drive the telescope from there but in reality the text based app is much easier to use in the field on a tiny phone screen. 

Each time you slew to an object via GoTo you are asked to centre & confirm (for maximum accuracy you make the last moves up & right apparently to reduce backlash in the mount - the app compels you to do this before accepting as centred, but if you can't be bothered and don't need that precise tolerance then you can tap the up & R buttons and accept without moving the mount in those directions).  It was also suggested that for maximum  accuracy to consider aligning on 2 stars in the same hemisphere and doing all your observing in that half of the sky and then repeating the process for the other. 

This radically improved accuracy making the GoTo definitely usable with the Mak (1 degree max TFOV) and an absolute dream with the wider field of the ST80.    

I would say one in five sessions I have one slew where it loses the plot and does something odd - at that point I've tended to just realign and all is well again, takes 2 minutes.  Beside that the only vary rare issue I've had has been dropping the wireless network 2 or 3 times in 5 months - as likely to be my phone as the mount and again, hitting reconnect worked straight away.  I haven't attempted to use this for photography or in EQ mode which is a firmware & wedge upgrade that' s available & apparently folk can get good results, nice to know I've got something to grow into with this bit of kit one day.  I've tended to use mine with the clutches locked and move around using the motors, but in theory if you disengage the clutches and move around manually, there is a dual encoder system that means the alignment still knows where it is. Haven't really tested this in part because the one area of build where I have a concern is the Az clutch which feels a wee bit under engineered compared to the rest of it - like a thread might strip if you loosened and tightened it extensively, haven't heard of this happening, just feels a bit thin to me.   Lots of buyers put it on an after market puck like this one to make it a nice smooth manual Alt Az push mount https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284231160663?hash=item422d7f5357:g:YqIAAOSwF5NgW0PZ

I am about to take delivery of the aftermarket ADM clamp for this, which apparently improves stability - not because I've had worries about the security of the stock clamp as much as this one will allow me to mount both Vixen & Losmandy type bars, the rings I've found for the 60mm scopes are 30mm fittings.   https://www.firstlightoptics.com/adm-replacement-saddles/adm-dual-dovetail-adaptor-for-az-gti.html 

I love using the old wooden tripod but also really looking forward to getting those old 60mm on this mount!  

Didn't realise I had this much to say about it - topline is I wouldn't hesitate to buy again!

 

  

Excellent right up! : ) FLO have the AZ gti mount heads without tri[pod in stock, and I'll be giving them a lot of thought over the weekend. I'm also smitten with that new Starbase 80 classic refractor package FLO have just added to their site. It's a gateway drug to Takahashi's lol   

[SuburbanMak]

4 hours ago, Chris said:

Excellent right up! : ) FLO have the AZ gti mount heads without tri[pod in stock, and I'll be giving them a lot of thought over the weekend. I'm also smitten with that new Starbase 80 classic refractor package FLO have just added to their site. It's a gateway drug to Takahashi's lol   

That does look very nice, I read that it’s the same optics company that do the Scopetech lenses. I have a nagging feeling there’s an f15 in my future and agree it’s all a slippery slope toward something in duck-egg & cream…

Edited May 7, 2021 by SuburbanMak

[SuburbanMak]

Well the Hilkin 60mm has arrived and is intact - no blemishes in the objective, lovely smooth focusser, usable 5x24 finder & a nice clean tube.

The objective was dusty but otherwise in good shape. The lens cell showed deposits that looked suspiciously like snail-poo. All quickly succumbed to a gentle clean with Baader Optical  Wonder. 

The peripherals are a mixed bag - the wooden box was rotten at one end & won’t be kept & the eyepieces have corroded barrels as a consequence. The prism looks quite degraded & there’s the usual lethal sun filter + an intriguing looking screw-in single element Barlow thing.

The mount looks beautiful but is incomplete & missing it’s lower housing which I guess remains missing in action with the tripod. I’ll definitely keep it though as the sage green crackle paint and quality Alt Az wormgear looks amazing, as does the slightly tatty purple velvet padding for the clamshell - a future project. 

For now though it’s in some guide rings & looking business like on an AZGTi. 

Am having a few challenges achieveing focus with the cheapo 1.25 converter + Tak prism so reverting to the old school .965 prism & EPs for now. I have some nice clean Circle K ones that came with my Prinz 330. Have ordered the Vixen threaded converter & we’ll see, but for now it’s the full classic experience! 

Church-spire and chimney pot test looked great, finder solid, aligned & performing well. Waiting now for some stars. I wonder how long it is since this lovely old thing channeled photons from across time…  

First light:  Good clean rings either side of focus & no sign of CA on Vega.  Super Airy disc & single ring on Arcturus. Colours look quite rich & backgrounds inky-black. We have a winner here! 
 

Just spent a happy hour looking at favourite Doubles.

Algieba, split beautifully at 53x.

Lovely field around Mizar with ball like double at 32x & a line of faint stars in view to the W which I’ll check the magnitude - haven’t noticed them before. 

Polaris - split cleanly & clearly with a faint white ghost at 7 o’clock at both 32x & 53x just outside the single ring. Primary looked yellowish in comparison. 

Alberio - pin like gems with good colour contrast despite sitting somewhat low into the moisture haze & streetlights. 
 

A very promising start with some slightly dubious glass at the EP end of things. Looking forward to many chilled out garden-sessions of classic doubles and lunar work enjoyed with a nice glass of Shiraz. 
 

And boy does it look like a Telescope! 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by SuburbanMak

[Peter_D]

I had an Revue 60/900 which was very similar to your scope - circle K (Kenko?) if I remember correctly. It had nice optics - really dark black sky and pinpoint stars.

[F15Rules]

On 07/05/2021 at 12:38, SuburbanMak said:

am currently using this to plug in 1.25 EPs to the Prinz 60mm, if I bought the Vixen thread adapter you recommend, would that give me the same field stop as a 1.25 as opposed to this, which means I can use 1.25 EPs but with the .965 field stop? 

Sorry for the delayed reply...yes, the adapter will open up the aperture to illuminate 1.25" eyepieces fully, whereas at the moment your adapter will only open up to a 0.965" maximum, so most 1.25" eyepieces are likely to vignette if their field stop is wider than your current adapter will allow.

I see you've ordered the Vixen adapter, I'm sure it will much improve the views when using modern 1.25" EPs 👍.

Dave

[SuburbanMak]

You may recall that my bargain eBay Hilkin 60mm didn’t come with a tripod. 

There’s something slightly amiss with my economic logic here, but hey…

[SuburbanMak]

On 12/05/2021 at 22:47, F15Rules said:

Sorry for the delayed reply...yes, the adapter will open up the aperture to illuminate 1.25" eyepieces fully, whereas at the moment your adapter will only open up to a 0.965" maximum, so most 1.25" eyepieces are likely to vignette if their field stop is wider than your current adapter will allow.

I see you've ordered the Vixen adapter, I'm sure it will much improve the views when using modern 1.25" EPs 👍.

Dave

Thanks Dave - after my session just with the .965s this week I can’t wait to see the wider view on some brighter clusters.
Also think this scope suited to a lunar programme. 

[Chris]

I've got to give it to the AZ-GTI and yourself for doing a good job of blending a classic refractor with a modern goto mount.

Looks great!  

[SuburbanMak]

2 hours ago, Chris said:

I've got to give it to the AZ-GTI and yourself for doing a good job of blending a classic refractor with a modern goto mount.

Looks great!  

Thank you - I’ve made a couple of additions to the AZGTi to make it usable in manual mode - a PB70 pan base and an updated ADM clamp - am very happy with it. 
The main use case for the modern mount is tracking which this thing does brilliantly.  
A really nice discovery was that the Hilkin 5x24 finder is lovely, gives a really nice view in itself and the Hilkin system holds finder alignment well, unlike the Prinz/Tasco version I have on a 60mm f11.8 if similar vintage. (That scope however is in weather-permitting daily use for solar white-light & was treated to a Baader Continuum filter today - it’s giving super, crisp whole disc views, although green obviously). 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by SuburbanMak

[Chris]

I've heard the ADM clamp is almost a must do upgrade.

Nice! I need to sort out a solar setup myself....then definitely not sell it in the autumn for the third time 🤣  

[John]

Nice scope. My first scope was a 60mm F/13.3 Tasco. It's optics still perform well despite it's rather wobbly alt-azimuth mount and .965 inch eyepieces. I must get an adapter sometime so that I can try some decent eyepieces with the scope.

I was rather surprised how well a small aperture scope can do on double stars when I recently stopped down my ED120 refractor to a 52mm F/17.3:

 

[SuburbanMak]

6 hours ago, John said:

Nice scope. My first scope was a 60mm F/13.3 Tasco. It's optics still perform well despite it's rather wobbly alt-azimuth mount and .965 inch eyepieces. I must get an adapter sometime so that I can try some decent eyepieces with the scope.

I was rather surprised how well a small aperture scope can do on double stars when I recently stopped down my ED120 refractor to a 52mm F/17.3:

 

Thanks John - I am still pretty near the beginning of my astronomy journey but immediately started to get real satisfaction from doubles.  The main scope I’ve been using is a 127 Mak which is no slouch in this department but I’ve noticed that for some pairs the 60mm performs brilliantly. Polaris in particular just pops in the smaller aperture & colour contrast is superb. I’ve split tighter pairs in the Mak, right down to its optical limit (Tegmine for example) but Polaris sits much better on the 60mm optics, I reckon just as a function of where the diffraction patterns fall at focus. 
I’ll be very keen to point the Hilkin at Rigel & then Sirius come the winter. 
 

[SuburbanMak]

7 hours ago, Chris said:

I've heard the ADM clamp is almost a must do upgrade.

Nice! I need to sort out a solar setup myself....then definitely not sell it in the autumn for the third time 🤣  

I’m amazed at the difference the clamp upgrade has made to stability - although it did expose that any remaining sloppiness resided in the SW tripod, hence the new Berlebach…